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Old
09-08-2012, 11:25 PM
  #126
WTFetus
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Originally Posted by seanlinden View Post
but when you've been as good as the Sharks have been for as long as they have been, anything but a cup cannot be considered acceptable.
Like I said earlier, what do you mean as good as the Sharks have been? The only time they were SC threats were the three seasons from 2008 to 2011. Points don't tell the whole story in 08-09 since they had absolutely no depth and were only good for half of a season. In 10-11 and 11-12, they made the WCF, which again, is a pretty good accomplishment (but weren't the better team nor the favorites that season). It's certainly more than what 26 other teams could say those seasons.

Again, by your definition, 29 teams are failures. Winning the SC takes a ton of luck and sometimes, the best teams don't always win. In the Sharks cases, they were not only not the best team, but they didn't have a ton of luck on their side over the years.

What you're saying is pretty much the same nonsense the media has been spewing over the years. The only times I'd consider the Sharks "chokers" were this recent season, and maybe 08-09 (The Ducks were a lot better of a team than their standing indicated).

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09-08-2012, 11:33 PM
  #127
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Originally Posted by WTFetus View Post
Like I said earlier, what do you mean as good as the Sharks have been? The only time they were SC threats were the three seasons from 2008 to 2011. Points don't tell the whole story in 08-09 since they had absolutely no depth and were only good for half of a season. In 10-11 and 11-12, they made the WCF, which again, is a pretty good accomplishment (but weren't the better team nor the favorites that season). It's certainly more than what 26 other teams could say those seasons.

Again, by your definition, 29 teams are failures. Winning the SC takes a ton of luck and sometimes, the best teams don't always win. In the Sharks cases, they were not only not the best team, but they didn't have a ton of luck on their side over the years.

What you're saying is pretty much the same nonsense the media has been spewing over the years. The only times I'd consider the Sharks "chokers" were this recent season, and maybe 08-09 (The Ducks were a lot better of a team than their standing indicated).
Since the lockout, the Sharks only started the playoffs without home ice 3 times (2 of which were the longest ago). They've won the division 4 times since the lockout. That's being a great and consistent regular season team, no matter how you want to downplay it. When you're that good in the regular season, you have to consider yourself a legitimate Stanley Cup threat.

It's not a matter of being "chokers" -- it's a matter of the fact that the team(s) they've assembled and the approaches they've taken just aren't good enough.

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09-09-2012, 02:23 AM
  #128
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Originally Posted by seanlinden View Post
Kulemin is overvalued in Toronto. A better choice to pursue would be MacArthur. He's been better offensively, and a much easier trade for the Leafs.
Well, then I'll add significantly to Kulemin and Kadri then. I much, much prefer Kulemin to MacArthur.

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09-09-2012, 09:19 AM
  #129
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Well, then I'll add significantly to Kulemin and Kadri then. I much, much prefer Kulemin to MacArthur.
As much as the Sharks may value Kulemin over MacArthur, Toronto does even more (since they know the player, and have a desparate need for size), so he wouldn't be the guy moving.

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09-09-2012, 10:22 AM
  #130
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Originally Posted by seanlinden View Post
As much as the Sharks may value Kulemin over MacArthur, Toronto does even more (since they know the player, and have a desparate need for size), so he wouldn't be the guy moving.
So that means Pavelski won't be the guy moving.

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09-09-2012, 12:50 PM
  #131
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Originally Posted by seanlinden View Post
As much as the Sharks may value Kulemin over MacArthur, Toronto does even more (since they know the player, and have a desparate need for size), so he wouldn't be the guy moving.
Pavelski is a guy who drives possession against top opponent, and scores 30 goals while doing so. So for me, to make a trade for the guy, I need all of those components in the package. Kulemin is a guy who drives possession against the toughs. Kadri has top-6 upside and is essentially NHL-ready. MacArthur is older, not even close defensively, and really not all that much better offensively.

You say Kulemin is overvalued in Toronto, well, Pavelski is overvalued even more in San Jose. That's why I feel justified in demanding him.

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09-09-2012, 11:13 PM
  #132
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Originally Posted by TheJuxtaposer View Post
Pavelski is a guy who drives possession against top opponent, and scores 30 goals while doing so. So for me, to make a trade for the guy, I need all of those components in the package. Kulemin is a guy who drives possession against the toughs. Kadri has top-6 upside and is essentially NHL-ready. MacArthur is older, not even close defensively, and really not all that much better offensively.

You say Kulemin is overvalued in Toronto, well, Pavelski is overvalued even more in San Jose. That's why I feel justified in demanding him.
I think you guys are missing the point. You can "demand" whoever you want, that doesn't mean it actually makes sense for you to trade for him.

If Kulemin is required, the deal would probably have to be straight up, or close to it.

The Sharks can certainly do better with a package built around MacArthur, Bozak and Kadri... and it makes more sense for the Leafs to offer that than Kulemin. As a result, both teams do better by Kulemin not being included.

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09-09-2012, 11:22 PM
  #133
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Originally Posted by seanlinden View Post
I think you guys are missing the point. You can "demand" whoever you want, that doesn't mean it actually makes sense for you to trade for him.

If Kulemin is required, the deal would probably have to be straight up, or close to it.

The Sharks can certainly do better with a package built around MacArthur, Bozak and Kadri... and it makes more sense for the Leafs to offer that than Kulemin. As a result, both teams do better by Kulemin not being included.
I think you're missing the point that trading Pavelski for anything less than a big overpayment does not help the Sharks right now, at all.

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09-10-2012, 12:28 AM
  #134
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Originally Posted by seanlinden View Post
I think you guys are missing the point. You can "demand" whoever you want, that doesn't mean it actually makes sense for you to trade for him.

If Kulemin is required, the deal would probably have to be straight up, or close to it.

The Sharks can certainly do better with a package built around MacArthur, Bozak and Kadri... and it makes more sense for the Leafs to offer that than Kulemin. As a result, both teams do better by Kulemin not being included.
Your missing the point. If we don't get Kulemin++ we aren't trading Pavs. We don't need to trade him if we don't get better from trading him. MacArthur and Bozak don't make us better.

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09-10-2012, 02:11 AM
  #135
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Originally Posted by seanlinden View Post
I think you guys are missing the point. You can "demand" whoever you want, that doesn't mean it actually makes sense for you to trade for him.

If Kulemin is required, the deal would probably have to be straight up, or close to it.

The Sharks can certainly do better with a package built around MacArthur, Bozak and Kadri... and it makes more sense for the Leafs to offer that than Kulemin. As a result, both teams do better by Kulemin not being included.
I'm sorry, are you suggesting that Kulemin is equal to Pavelski. You mean the guy who just scored 7 goals in the season?

Kulemin not being included means that there is no deal to be had. He has to come back ++ or Pavelski simply won't go to Toronto. End of story.

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09-10-2012, 07:26 AM
  #136
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Your missing the point. If we don't get Kulemin++ we aren't trading Pavs. We don't need to trade him if we don't get better from trading him. MacArthur and Bozak don't make us better.
So there's no deal to be made here then.

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Originally Posted by TheJuxtaposer View Post
I'm sorry, are you suggesting that Kulemin is equal to Pavelski. You mean the guy who just scored 7 goals in the season?

Kulemin not being included means that there is no deal to be had. He has to come back ++ or Pavelski simply won't go to Toronto. End of story.
From a Toronto standpoint, yes he is. He's proven capable of scoring 30 in the league, has a good contract, plays a solid defensive game, and most importantly, brings much needed size to our forward group. If the Leafs trade him, they have nobody who can step up into his role. Pavelski is a good centre, without a doubt, but probably not good enough to the point where we're going to stop looking for a centre. That means we need to keep our ammunition (guys like Kadri, Bozak, MacArthur) to try and replace Kulemin. Furthermore, from a basic lineup perspective, the difference between Pavelski and Bozak/Connolly as the team's #1C just doesn't justify losing Kulemin from our lineup. The former has always done an admirable job filling a role that he is miscast in, and the latter should have a much better year now that the Leafs have a big winger to play opposite Kessel.

If you're going to value him as the 7 goal scorer, then why do you want him so badly???? Why not value the 20+ guy higher? Could it be, because he has value to a team well beyond that of a guy who scored 7 last year??

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09-10-2012, 09:17 AM
  #137
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Originally Posted by seanlinden View Post
So there's no deal to be made here then.



From a Toronto standpoint, yes he is. He's proven capable of scoring 30 in the league, has a good contract, plays a solid defensive game, and most importantly, brings much needed size to our forward group. If the Leafs trade him, they have nobody who can step up into his role. Pavelski is a good centre, without a doubt, but probably not good enough to the point where we're going to stop looking for a centre. That means we need to keep our ammunition (guys like Kadri, Bozak, MacArthur) to try and replace Kulemin. Furthermore, from a basic lineup perspective, the difference between Pavelski and Bozak/Connolly as the team's #1C just doesn't justify losing Kulemin from our lineup. The former has always done an admirable job filling a role that he is miscast in, and the latter should have a much better year now that the Leafs have a big winger to play opposite Kessel.

If you're going to value him as the 7 goal scorer, then why do you want him so badly???? Why not value the 20+ guy higher? Could it be, because he has value to a team well beyond that of a guy who scored 7 last year??

im a leaf fan but i disagree with you. there is a significant difference between pavelski and any other center in our system with the exception of possibly grabovski. while i agree that burke would continue to look for an upgrade having pavelski-grabs as a 1-2 down the middle would be better then anything we have had in years.

i think pavelskis numbers are less because he is sheltered in the sense that he is behind big joe, marleau, clowe, couture. in toronto he would be a go to guy with lots of ice time. i would be surprised if he couldnt put up 70+ points playing with lupul and kessel.

as much as i like kulemin i feel like he is going to become a hassel sooner then later. burke got him signed to a short term deal at a low rate but id think if he put up 50+ points again his agent is going to play hardball.

despite not having a lot of forwards as big or as good as kulemin, wing is our area of most depth so if we can trade from that area to address our weakest area (center) i dont see how burke doesnt do it).

if im san jose i dont move pavelski in a deal for kulemin straight up, there would need to be a significant kicker in there to motivate me. the sharks would be better off moving big joe and marleau and building the team around couture and pavelski down the middle.

from a leafs stand point if burke wouldnt move kulemin and kadri for carter/ richards i cant see him offering kadri for pavelski. id think burke would be willing to put a fair amount into play though if it meant getting pavelski though. for the leafs, the addition of pavelski and subtraction of kulemin makes the leafs a better team now and in the future in my opinon.


lupul pavelski kessel
jvr grabs mac
kadri bozak frattin
brown mclemment steckel
connolly

phaneuf gardiner
liles komisarek
franson holzer


pavelski + for kulemin + gunnarson + lombardi

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09-10-2012, 09:54 AM
  #138
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Pavelski for Grabovski is fair value. ...but, trading a good 2nd line center for another good 2nd line center when neither really needs a change in scenery is a waste.

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09-10-2012, 10:14 AM
  #139
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So there's no deal to be made here then.
That is fine with me.

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09-10-2012, 10:20 AM
  #140
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Originally Posted by gabeliscious View Post
pavelski + for kulemin + gunnarson + lombardi
This is a bad offer for Pavelski. We don't need Gunnarson. We don't want Lombardi and Kulemin is not equal to Pavelski.

We want Kulemin+Kadri+Bozak. Anything else and there is no point to move Pavelski

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09-10-2012, 11:24 AM
  #141
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Originally Posted by seanlinden View Post
Since the lockout, the Sharks only started the playoffs without home ice 3 times (2 of which were the longest ago). They've won the division 4 times since the lockout. That's being a great and consistent regular season team, no matter how you want to downplay it. When you're that good in the regular season, you have to consider yourself a legitimate Stanley Cup threat.

It's not a matter of being "chokers" -- it's a matter of the fact that the team(s) they've assembled and the approaches they've taken just aren't good enough.
That's why they've tried to do things like bring in players with Cup experience like Rob Blake and made moves to trade from strength to upgrade weakness (Heatley out, Brent Burns in). I'm not sure how trading Pavelski for some craptastic Kadri + Bozak package puts them over the edge. I would say it would send them the other way, away from being a good team in general.

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09-10-2012, 12:04 PM
  #142
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Originally Posted by mydnyte View Post
Pavelski for Grabovski is fair value. ...but, trading a good 2nd line center for another good 2nd line center when neither really needs a change in scenery is a waste.
As much as I'd love to have Grabo, it doesn't fit a need. We have a great 2nd line center in Couture.

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09-10-2012, 12:14 PM
  #143
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i think pavelskis numbers are less because he is sheltered in the sense that he is behind big joe, marleau, clowe, couture. in toronto he would be a go to guy with lots of ice time. i would be surprised if he couldnt put up 70+ points playing with lupul and kessel.
Pavelski isn't sheltered in the least though. He plays alongside Thornton and the two of them face the toughest competition night-in and night-out. The reason why they are so successful against top-competition is because of Pavelski's superior 2-way game and possession numbers.
And he's already the go-to-guy on the Sharks in a sense. There is a reason why Burke called him a swiss-army knife of a player. He plays on the first line against the toughest competition (unsheltered first line, unlike other teams). On the PP, he plays on the first unit and is capable of playing either C, W, or at the poitn. On the PK, he plays on the first unit.


Last edited by WTFetus: 09-10-2012 at 12:19 PM.
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09-10-2012, 01:12 PM
  #144
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From a Toronto standpoint, yes he is. He's proven capable of scoring 30 in the league, has a good contract, plays a solid defensive game, and most importantly, brings much needed size to our forward group. If the Leafs trade him, they have nobody who can step up into his role. Pavelski is a good centre, without a doubt, but probably not good enough to the point where we're going to stop looking for a centre. That means we need to keep our ammunition (guys like Kadri, Bozak, MacArthur) to try and replace Kulemin. Furthermore, from a basic lineup perspective, the difference between Pavelski and Bozak/Connolly as the team's #1C just doesn't justify losing Kulemin from our lineup. The former has always done an admirable job filling a role that he is miscast in, and the latter should have a much better year now that the Leafs have a big winger to play opposite Kessel.

If you're going to value him as the 7 goal scorer, then why do you want him so badly???? Why not value the 20+ guy higher? Could it be, because he has value to a team well beyond that of a guy who scored 7 last year??
Kulemin has scored over 20 goals exactly one time in 4 nearly full seasons. Please, that's not being a "proven 30 goalscorer". Pavelski has 4 straight seasons of scoring 20 or more, and he scored 30 this past season. Pavelski has one of the best non-ELC contracts in the league, plays a Selke caliber defensive game. Pavelski replaces everything Kulemin does, and then much, much more.

If you're so concerned with size and physicality, I'll trade you Clowe for Kulemin straight up.

I don't value Kulemin as a 7 goal scorer. I'm just mentioning that fact to show how absurd it is that you'd value him over Pavelski. Pavelski is so much better than either Bozak or Connolly, I don't see at all how you could say that.

If you won't trade Kulemin straight up for Pavelski at all, then there is simply no trade to be made. Why you wouldn't trade a 2nd/3rd line tweener for a 1st liner is beyond me, but to each his own I guess?

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09-10-2012, 01:13 PM
  #145
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Originally Posted by Hatrick Marleau View Post
This is a bad offer for Pavelski. We don't need Gunnarson. We don't want Lombardi and Kulemin is not equal to Pavelski.

We want Kulemin+Kadri+Bozak. Anything else and there is no point to move Pavelski
Is there anything you could offer in the trade that would make sense more sense for Toronto? ie-Murray

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09-10-2012, 01:13 PM
  #146
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Is there anything you could offer in the trade that would make sense more sense for Toronto? ie-Murray
Yeah, Murray is available.

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09-10-2012, 01:18 PM
  #147
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Originally Posted by TheJuxtaposer View Post
Yeah, Murray is available.
So, if we were to put up...

Kulemin + Kadri + Bozak

would San Jose offer...

Pavelski + Murray

?

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09-10-2012, 01:38 PM
  #148
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Originally Posted by DougGilmour93 View Post
So, if we were to put up...

Kulemin + Kadri + Bozak

would San Jose offer...

Pavelski + Murray

?
If TML threw in there next two 7ths I'd take it.

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09-10-2012, 01:57 PM
  #149
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DougGilmour93 View Post
So, if we were to put up...

Kulemin + Kadri + Bozak

would San Jose offer...

Pavelski + Murray

?
Yeah, I'd probably think about it.

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09-10-2012, 02:18 PM
  #150
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Yeah, I'd probably think about it.
Ya. I'd consider it. It would be a hard pill to swallow, but if Pavelski could become our #1 center and excel at it, the price to acquire him would be justified.

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