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10 Greatest Pittsburgh Penguins in Franchise History (THW)

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Old
08-28-2012, 11:40 PM
  #26
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Originally Posted by Rowdy Roddy Peeper View Post
When you have Francis carrying a team, you end up with the '80s Whalers.
Or the '92 Postseason Penguins.

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08-28-2012, 11:43 PM
  #27
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Originally Posted by Rowdy Roddy Peeper View Post
This isn't a career ranking, it's a Penguins ranking. Francis' all-time point total doesn't factor in, only what he accomplished in Pittsburgh.

The fact is that Francis was a great two-way star, but he wasn't ever on Malkin's level. Malkin can carry a successful team on his back single-handedly. When you have Francis carrying a team, you end up with the '80s Whalers.
Franchise had more great years as a Penguin than Malkin has had so far even if Malkin's best are better. Right now I'd say its basically a coin toss between the two. Malkin will easily surpass him at this rate but right now its debatable.

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08-28-2012, 11:46 PM
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I disagree. Francis is #4 all-time on the NHL scoring list. Think about that.

Again, I'm saying Malkin is #4 next year after a strong year. I just have Francis there because he spent 8 years with the Pens and was so important to the cup teams and years afterwards. I'm not just talking about offense either. Francis may be one of the top two-way players of all time. His defense and ability to win key faceoffs was top notch.

It's really because of longevity IMO. I see Geno #4 next year.
I understand you viewpoint but I'm only looking at time spent as a Penguin. Francis had 613 points in 533 games as a Penguin 1.15ppg, while playing in a higher scoring period with the 2 best offensive players in the league. He's only played 105 more games in a Pens uniform than Malkin has so his longevity isn't that much more than Malkin's. If we're taking into account their careers outside of this organization than Brian Trottier would be very high on this list, but he isn't (I'm not saying Francis' time as a Pen=Trottier's but that his career point totals outside of a Pens uniform mean nothing in this discussion).

Malkin on the other hand already has 527 points in 427 games (1.23ppg) and his 2 worst years he was playing with nagging injuries that would slow anyone down, yet he still managed 114 points in 110 games. What does he have to do to seem "consistent"? Be a hart finalist EVERY year? That's unrealistic. Crosby's injuries haven't seemed to hurt his place on this list so why are we being so hard on Malkin? Even if he only averaged a point per game over the next 2 years he'll have accomplished more during his time as a Pen then Francis ever did.

Like I said it's very close and Francis is amazing but Malkin has been a Hart finalist 3 out of his 6 seasons as a Pen. Think about how hard that is to accomplish.

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08-29-2012, 12:20 AM
  #29
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Originally Posted by Don'tcry4mejanhrdina View Post
I understand you viewpoint but I'm only looking at time spent as a Penguin. Francis had 613 points in 533 games as a Penguin 1.15ppg, while playing in a higher scoring period with the 2 best offensive players in the league. He's only played 105 more games in a Pens uniform than Malkin has so his longevity isn't that much more than Malkin's. If we're taking into account their careers outside of this organization than Brian Trottier would be very high on this list, but he isn't (I'm not saying Francis' time as a Pen=Trottier's but that his career point totals outside of a Pens uniform mean nothing in this discussion).

Malkin on the other hand already has 527 points in 427 games (1.23ppg) and his 2 worst years he was playing with nagging injuries that would slow anyone down, yet he still managed 114 points in 110 games. What does he have to do to seem "consistent"? Be a hart finalist EVERY year? That's unrealistic. Crosby's injuries haven't seemed to hurt his place on this list so why are we being so hard on Malkin? Even if he only averaged a point per game over the next 2 years he'll have accomplished more during his time as a Pen then Francis ever did.

Like I said it's very close and Francis is amazing but Malkin has been a Hart finalist 3 out of his 6 seasons as a Pen. Think about how hard that is to accomplish.
Again, offense isn't everything when comparing Francis. Francis was that era's version of Datsyuk in his all around game.

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Old
08-29-2012, 12:43 AM
  #30
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I'm just saying... Mike Zigomanis eventually deserves something. He killed it in the faceoff dot every night.

Other than that - really enjoyable read.

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Old
08-29-2012, 12:51 AM
  #31
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Originally Posted by Jules Winnfield View Post
Again, offense isn't everything when comparing Francis. Francis was that era's version of Datsyuk in his all around game.
And yet Datsyuk still isn't as good as Malkin. Before this season I would have ranked Francis above Malkin without a doubt but 2 Art Ross trophies, 1 Hart (even Lemieux only won 3, Jagr only 1 as well), A Conn Smythe and A Ted Lindsey award (I won't include the calder since that's impossible for Francis to have won as a Penguin) far outweigh 1 selke and 2 lady byngs. Really guys, I appreciate the past as much as the next guy and I grew up watching Francis but Malkin HAS accomplished more (short of 2 cups) than Francis did in their time as Penguins. That's a fact. Like I said, even if you remove the fact that Francis was overshadowed by Lemieux and Jagr he still never wins an Art Ross or be a finalist for the Hart, let alone 3 times. 1 selke doesn't make up for all Malkin has accomplished over him. He scored 36 points in 1 playoff year for crying out loud! I'd love to see the list of players who have scored more points than that in a single playoff. Lemieux, Gretzky....who else? I know it's a VERY short list.

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Old
08-29-2012, 12:54 AM
  #32
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Where's Carl Sneep?

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Old
08-29-2012, 06:31 AM
  #33
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Barrasso's work other than those two playoffs was pretty average. He really **** the bed for a while for the Pens IMO. I don't think 2 years with a stacked team should get him in the top 10 list.

Funny how you can replace Barrasso with MAF and your sentence is still totally true.

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Old
08-29-2012, 06:55 AM
  #34
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Funny how you can replace Barrasso with MAF and your sentence is still totally true.
Yeah...exactly.,.and Fleury shouldn't be on that list either.

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Old
08-29-2012, 07:40 AM
  #35
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1. Mario
2. Jagr (even though he's a *******)
3a. Crosby
3b. Malkin
4. Francis

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Old
08-29-2012, 08:33 AM
  #36
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Originally Posted by CaptainZappBrannigan View Post
1. Mario
2. Jagr (even though he's a *******)
3a. Crosby
3b. Malkin
4. Francis
Sid has enough extra stuff like being Captain and handling all of the media stuff that he is clearly a step above Malkin for importance to the franchise up to this point.

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08-29-2012, 08:53 AM
  #37
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This thread needs some more Joe Mullen.

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Old
08-29-2012, 09:05 AM
  #38
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Originally Posted by Jules Winnfield View Post
Coffey should be a lot higher on the list.

I'd be fine if Barrasso was left off the list. Tommy Boy was lucky he had a stacked team in front of him. I can remember many a stretches where he really sucked. If it wasn't for the team in front of him putting up 5+ goals a game, he wouldn't have had the stats he had.

I would put Malkin 5th on the list "at this time." Two scoring titles and a Conn Smythe is > Stevens and I'm a hyooooge Stevens fan (pre-Pilon hit).
You are probably remembering the Tommy Barrasso of after '95; Barrasso was absolutely a top five goalie from '83-'93. I remember him coming in out of high school and making a Buffalo Sabres squad who couldn't play defense with Bob Sauve in goal into a defensive powerhouse (for the Era). Watching him play the puck back there was magical. During the '93 playoffs I think the wheels fell off of him a little bit. After that, there were stretches of good play-some great play- but never consistency between the pipes. Though to be fair, the Penguins defense and approach to defense from '93-'96 was laughable.

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Old
08-29-2012, 09:07 AM
  #39
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Originally Posted by Don'tcry4mejanhrdina View Post
I understand you viewpoint but I'm only looking at time spent as a Penguin. Francis had 613 points in 533 games as a Penguin 1.15ppg, while playing in a higher scoring period with the 2 best offensive players in the league. He's only played 105 more games in a Pens uniform than Malkin has so his longevity isn't that much more than Malkin's. If we're taking into account their careers outside of this organization than Brian Trottier would be very high on this list, but he isn't (I'm not saying Francis' time as a Pen=Trottier's but that his career point totals outside of a Pens uniform mean nothing in this discussion).

Malkin on the other hand already has 527 points in 427 games (1.23ppg) and his 2 worst years he was playing with nagging injuries that would slow anyone down, yet he still managed 114 points in 110 games. What does he have to do to seem "consistent"? Be a hart finalist EVERY year? That's unrealistic. Crosby's injuries haven't seemed to hurt his place on this list so why are we being so hard on Malkin? Even if he only averaged a point per game over the next 2 years he'll have accomplished more during his time as a Pen then Francis ever did.

Like I said it's very close and Francis is amazing but Malkin has been a Hart finalist 3 out of his 6 seasons as a Pen. Think about how hard that is to accomplish.
I think Malkin will challenge and overtake Francis by the end of his career; however, I think he could have already done so if he had been (a) used in defensive settings as he was his second year and (b) healthy.

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08-29-2012, 09:17 AM
  #40
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Yeah...exactly.,.and Fleury shouldn't be on that list either.
Fleury is a pretty average starting goalkeeper. Barrasso was elite, and was elite for a long time. In addition, he had some of the greatest puck skills (catching, blocking and moving the biscut) ever seen in league history.

Fluery is a pure "blocking" goalie, which is why he will never be elite. Look at a guy like Broduer and he is able to make saves which a positioning based goalie would not be able to manage, and he limits the chances against him by controlling the puck when it is shot at him.

Barrasso did the same thing. Fleury has never, and will never, be that guy. Therefore, he will never be elite consistently.

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08-29-2012, 09:21 AM
  #41
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Fleury is a pretty average starting goalkeeper. Barrasso was elite, and was elite for a long time. In addition, he had some of the greatest puck skills (catching, blocking and moving the biscut) ever seen in league history.

Fluery is a pure "blocking" goalie, which is why he will never be elite. Look at a guy like Broduer and he is able to make saves which a positioning based goalie would not be able to manage, and he limits the chances against him by controlling the puck when it is shot at him.

Barrasso did the same thing. Fleury has never, and will never, be that guy. Therefore, he will never be elite consistently.
Fleury is one of the most athletic goalies in the league and makes more acrobatic saves than most. One thing he actually struggled with early in his career was being in the right position so I'm not sure what you're talking about with the "blocking" goalie bit. If there's one thing that Fleury is elite at, it's making ridiculous saves when he's out of position.

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08-29-2012, 09:27 AM
  #42
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You are probably remembering the Tommy Barrasso of after '95; Barrasso was absolutely a top five goalie from '83-'93. I remember him coming in out of high school and making a Buffalo Sabres squad who couldn't play defense with Bob Sauve in goal into a defensive powerhouse (for the Era). Watching him play the puck back there was magical. During the '93 playoffs I think the wheels fell off of him a little bit. After that, there were stretches of good play-some great play- but never consistency between the pipes. Though to be fair, the Penguins defense and approach to defense from '93-'96 was laughable.

Meh, I think your memory (and mine as well) starts to fail us after a while as human nature only chooses to remember the good times.

Using GVT as a reference; Barrasso was a top 5 goalie for 2 seasons for the Pens (93 and 98). 2 seasons out of 11 does not make him an elite goalie IMO. He was below replacement level for 5 seasons for the Pens indicating his talent was way closer to mid pack than "elite/ top 5". He was an elite puck handler for the time. Tough to measure that though.

After looking at the metrics that compare him to his peers, he doesn't seem like the rock we remember him as.


Malkin is certainly #4. Not even a contest that the 2nd best player in the NHL doesn't beat out Francis. When was Francis ever the 2nd best player in the NHL? Harder decision comes down to who is 2nd. Jagr or Crosby? Jagr's personality and actions lose him a spot to Crosby IMO.

I remember so many games that he'd just leave and go to the locker room for a period when the Pens needed him most.


Last edited by wgknestrick: 08-29-2012 at 09:32 AM.
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Old
08-29-2012, 09:28 AM
  #43
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Fleury is one of the most athletic goalies in the league and makes more acrobatic saves than most. One thing he actually struggled with early in his career was being in the right position so I'm not sure what you're talking about with the "blocking" goalie bit. If there's one thing that Fleury is elite at, it's making ridiculous saves when he's out of position.
I'm talking about using his hands and arms and stick to control the puck. He's no better than average at any of those things. He is forced to make second saves a lot more than Tommy B, or Marty because of that lack of skill.

The kid needed to play more baseball as a kid or something

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08-29-2012, 09:32 AM
  #44
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Originally Posted by wgknestrick View Post
Meh, I think your memory (and mine as well) starts to fail us after a while as human nature only chooses to remember the good times.

Using GVT as a reference; Barrasso was a top 5 goalie for 2 seasons for the Pens (93 and 98). 2 seasons out of 11 does not make him an elite goalie IMO. He was below replacement level for 5 seasons for the Pens indicating his talent was way closer to mid pack than "elite/ top 5".

After looking at the metrics that compare him to his peers, he doesn't seem like the rock we remember him as.


Malkin is certainly #4. Not even a contest that the 2nd best player in the NHL doesn't beat out Francis. When was Francis ever the 2nd best player in the NHL? Harder decision comes down to who is 2nd. Jagr or Crosby? Jagr's personality and actions lose him a spot to Crosby IMO.

I remember so many games that he'd just leave and go to the locker room for a period when the Pens needed him most.
It's still Jagr.

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08-29-2012, 09:33 AM
  #45
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Originally Posted by wgknestrick View Post
Meh, I think your memory (and mine as well) starts to fail us after a while as human nature only chooses to remember the good times.

Using GVT as a reference; Barrasso was a top 5 goalie for 2 seasons for the Pens (93 and 98). 2 seasons out of 11 does not make him an elite goalie IMO. He was below replacement level for 5 seasons for the Pens indicating his talent was way closer to mid pack than "elite/ top 5".

After looking at the metrics that compare him to his peers, he doesn't seem like the rock we remember him as.


Malkin is certainly #4. Not even a contest that the 2nd best player in the NHL doesn't beat out Francis. When was Francis ever the 2nd best player in the NHL? Harder decision comes down to who is 2nd. Jagr or Crosby? Jagr's personality and actions lose him a spot to Crosby IMO.

I remember so many games that he'd just leave and go to the locker room for a period when the Pens needed him most.
Looking too much at Statistics and not enough at the actual gameplay. I'll freely admit, after '93 Barrasso wasn't an elite player. Not even close sometimes. But I remember his first season here, we made the playoffs. He was injured (if my memory serves) the next season. After that we won two championships. I remember him a lot playing in Buffalo, especially coming out of nowhere his first year.

Ya, maybe age has something to do with it, but I remember the guy dominating games.

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08-29-2012, 10:01 AM
  #46
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Personally, I would rank them:

1. Lemieux
2. Jagr
3. Crosby
4. Francis
5. Malkin
6. Coffey
7. Stevens
8. Kehoe
9. Pronovost
10. Barrasso

IMO, Malkin and Francis are extremely close right now, but Francis is definitely underappreciated, had to hold captain for a bit, and was a big part of the franchise for a longer period of time. Malkin will definitely overtake Francis in his career and both Sid and Malkin should overtake Jagr if they continue to have stellar careers (another cup or two wouldn't hurt either ).

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08-29-2012, 10:12 AM
  #47
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Looking too much at Statistics and not enough at the actual gameplay. I'll freely admit, after '93 Barrasso wasn't an elite player. Not even close sometimes. But I remember his first season here, we made the playoffs. He was injured (if my memory serves) the next season. After that we won two championships. I remember him a lot playing in Buffalo, especially coming out of nowhere his first year.

Ya, maybe age has something to do with it, but I remember the guy dominating games.
You are certainly right about remembering him dominating games as he had 2-3 fantastic seasons and playoffs for the Pens. The point I was making is that you are weighting those couple seasons (ie your only memories) over the 5 where any goaltender could have done better, or the 4 where he was top 15 (mid pack-average among starters). His body of work is much different from his best 2 seasons. As I am older now, I see those 2 seasons probably more of a fluke than his true talent. Most starting goal tenders can put together a couple of dominant seasons, but that doesn't make them all time greats.

He was certainly not on the level of Hasek, Roy, Eddy the eagle, or Beezer.

He does have the all time assist record for a goaltender indicating his elite puck handling (and also indicating he played on a team with Lemieux and Jagr).

http://www.puckprospectus.com/articl...din&mode=login


You can see here that he falls into a tier 3 goaltender and who is "peers" are skill wise.
http://brodeurisafraud.blogspot.com/...e-average.html

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Old
08-29-2012, 10:21 AM
  #48
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Originally Posted by wgknestrick View Post
You are certainly right about remembering him dominating games as he had 2-3 fantastic seasons and playoffs for the Pens. The point I was making is that you are weighting those couple seasons (ie your only memories) over the 5 where any goaltender could have done better, or the 4 where he was top 15 (mid pack-average among starters). His body of work is much different from his best 2 seasons. As I am older now, I see those 2 seasons probably more of a fluke than his true talent. Most starting goal tenders can put together a couple of dominant seasons, but that doesn't make them all time greats.

He was certainly not on the level of Hasek, Roy, Eddy the eagle, or Beezer.

He does have the all time assist record for a goaltender indicating his elite puck handling (and also indicating he played on a team with Lemieux and Jagr).

http://www.puckprospectus.com/articl...din&mode=login


You can see here that he falls into a tier 3 goaltender and who is "peers" are skill wise.
http://brodeurisafraud.blogspot.com/...e-average.html
Well Fuhr for 4 or 5 seasons in the 80's became unbeatable in the Playoffs as compared to the regular season. After that he was pedestrian. Barrasso from ’83-’93 was a great goalie, with only two or three starters better than him each season. I’d say that was elite.

From ’93 he started a downward trend-many things seem to be responsible for that, her personality (clashes with the media), his personal life (wife, froggys, child with cancer), age and mindset.

He was not elite from ’93 on, even though he had one of his best statistical seasons in ’97 or ’98. That just shows you the value, or lack thereof, of a purely statistical stance on players.


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08-29-2012, 10:24 AM
  #49
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Originally Posted by wgknestrick View Post
Meh, I think your memory (and mine as well) starts to fail us after a while as human nature only chooses to remember the good times.

Using GVT as a reference; Barrasso was a top 5 goalie for 2 seasons for the Pens (93 and 98). 2 seasons out of 11 does not make him an elite goalie IMO. He was below replacement level for 5 seasons for the Pens indicating his talent was way closer to mid pack than "elite/ top 5". He was an elite puck handler for the time. Tough to measure that though.

After looking at the metrics that compare him to his peers, he doesn't seem like the rock we remember him as.


Malkin is certainly #4. Not even a contest that the 2nd best player in the NHL doesn't beat out Francis. When was Francis ever the 2nd best player in the NHL? Harder decision comes down to who is 2nd. Jagr or Crosby? Jagr's personality and actions lose him a spot to Crosby IMO.

I remember so many games that he'd just leave and go to the locker room for a period when the Pens needed him most.


No matter how much of an ass Jagr was, is, or may continue to be, it doesn't take away all that he accomplished as a Pen.

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08-29-2012, 11:03 AM
  #50
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It's a shame people forget what Jagr did for the Penguins just because he said a couple of words. Jagr's prime was better than either Crosby's or Malkin's, and he did it in a lower scoring era, too. I mean, 5 Art Ross's, come on now.

Malkin's hardware should put him over Crosby, but Crosby is the face of the franchise. Pens (arguably) wouldn't be in Pittsburgh without him. So I guess it's a tie for 3rd place between these 2. But let's be serious now, Crosby's hardware (1 Art Ross, 1 Hart) can't compare to Genos (2 Art Ross, 1 Hart, 1 Conn Smythe). I think both have accomplished more than Francis.

Lemieux
Jagr
Crosby/ Malkin
Francis

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