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Old
09-03-2012, 09:19 AM
  #126
oilinblood
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Originally Posted by Jamin View Post
I was sad when this guy started getting his argument pwned because I knew he would never come back. Too bad it was an entertaining "debate" even if it was very one-sided lol
i was instinctively wincing as i read it. lol.

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09-03-2012, 09:32 AM
  #127
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This whole thread (and the original proposal) is just full of silliness, and that's coming from a Leafs' fan. Trade makes very little sense for either team. As Oiler fans are pointing out, Franson isn't a significant upgrade on D for them and if they were packaging those two players to get a D they would do it straight up for a better player and not a package with a forward. It makes even less sense for the Leafs. We are a bit thinner on D now having traded Schenn, so going from Franson to a less proven Teubert is risky, and why would we deal one of our only decent center prospects for a winger? The fact this deal was proposed by a TO fan is scary.

Secondly, all of this back and forth about how each teams' players are garbage and busts is ridiculous. Nobody mentioned in this deal is a bust at this point, they all have some value, and they all have the chance to be very useful players in the future. Oilers' fans saying Franson has zero value and that Colborne is a bust need to shake their heads, and the same TO fans that proposed the trade and are saying the Oilers' pieces are busts sound just as crazy. If they were of so little value then why would you even make a proposal like this or argue with Oiler fans over this trade?

I think most Oiler fans are saying Franson has no value to the Oilers specifically. The reasons why have already been stated. I dont think Franson would garner any attention from the Oilers. For the TOTAL 2 Dman positions needed on the PP, one for each unit, we have ... Whitney, Petry, J.Schultz, and I dont mind no-risk N Schultz out there either.

If Franson was a UFA i doubt we make an offer. Our needs, IMHO, is a top 4 RHD PK hard minute guy. That is the piece we really need.

As for Joe versus Paajarvii, my perspective is that despite the advantage of Joe playing C, we are quite happy to continue with Magnus and his high potential. I can honestly state that i watched the OKC playoffs and Gardiner was the leafs best player and Paajarvii was the Barons. Colborne had some good shifts in the CFs but I still feel Paajarvii was making things happen every shift and was an exciting player to watch.
Paajarvii never complained when he spent last season with Ben Eager and Eric Belanger. He got sent down and never complained. To me he is a guy that the Oilers arent going to simply flip. His value might not be as high as our other top picks but i dont think it would be easy to pry him from the Oilers either. Centre or not, Paajarvii will get every chance to develop with the Oilers.

To put it all in perspective... IF say OTTAWA came calling an said lets flip Paajarvii for Zibanejad? Even though this looks like a win for the Oil, I still think Tambi would prefer to keep his own guy. Zibanejad>Colborne. I love Zibanejad but I would want to stand by Paajarvii as well. The guy is developing.

The Leafs and Oilers are just terrible trade partners.


Last edited by oilinblood: 09-03-2012 at 09:39 AM.
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Old
09-03-2012, 11:38 AM
  #128
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Originally Posted by weak5holeguy View Post
He's better then Petry, The jury is still out on J.Schultz too. J.Schultz is easily the most overrated prospect on this board, Hasn't played a game in the AHL yet, Let alone NHL.
I'm a die-hard leaf fan that lives just outside of Edmonton and i'll tell you that there is zero chance that Franson is better than Petry.

From all the oiler games i went to last year Petry was easily their most complete dman. Slick with the puck, good first pass, hits, plays PP and PK.

I'd go as far as saying the only two leaf dman i wouldn't trade for Petry is Dion and Gardiner.

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09-04-2012, 09:04 AM
  #129
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I'd like to give mps a shot, but the oilers need a defensive dman. I wouldn't give up Holzer. Tough call. Komi + a 2nd?

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09-04-2012, 09:11 AM
  #130
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Originally Posted by CreeksideStrangler View Post
I'd like to give mps a shot, but the oilers need a defensive dman. I wouldn't give up Holzer. Tough call. Komi + a 2nd?
Wow, you really have not read any of the previous posts have you?

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09-04-2012, 11:00 AM
  #131
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Originally Posted by CreeksideStrangler View Post
I'd like to give mps a shot, but the oilers need a defensive dman. I wouldn't give up Holzer. Tough call. Komi + a 2nd?
no thanks.

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09-04-2012, 01:23 PM
  #132
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Originally Posted by Puritania View Post
no thanks.
Holzer and 2nd seems more realistic.

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09-04-2012, 02:41 PM
  #133
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Originally Posted by weak5holeguy View Post
To Edm:
Joe Colborne,Cody Franson

To Tor:
Magnus Paajarvi,Colten Teubert, 3rd
my breakdown:

Joe Colborne bust potential med - best case scenario 2nd line 2-way center, more likely 3rd line 2-way center ...has huge size

Franson bust potential minimal - bottom pairing and PP specialist

MSP bust potential high - best case scenario, 2nd line winger, but, no NHL scoring touch makes him a 3rd line energy player ala Chad Kilger

Colten Teubert bust potential med - bottom pairing is calling his name, and he can play for many years there.

3rd - bust potential high. ...not many 3rd round picks make the NHL, or have an impact

...so, Franson is the best player in the deal, and I would say Colborne is the 2nd best, and i see him as a 3rd liner at best.

Leafs pass.

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09-04-2012, 02:48 PM
  #134
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Originally Posted by mydnyte View Post
my breakdown:

Joe Colborne bust potential med - best case scenario 2nd line 2-way center, more likely 3rd line 2-way center ...has huge size

Franson bust potential minimal - bottom pairing and PP specialist

MSP bust potential high - best case scenario, 2nd line winger, but, no NHL scoring touch makes him a 3rd line energy player ala Chad Kilger

Colten Teubert bust potential med - bottom pairing is calling his name, and he can play for many years there.

3rd - bust potential high. ...not many 3rd round picks make the NHL, or have an impact

...so, Franson is the best player in the deal, and I would say Colborne is the 2nd best, and i see him as a 3rd liner at best.

Leafs pass.
Wow no homerism here but maybe you should watch MP play before you make statements like that

Franson and Colborne provide no immediate help to the Oilers, would rather keep Teubert and MP and have them develop with the Oil.

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09-04-2012, 03:05 PM
  #135
mydnyte
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Originally Posted by My name is Legion View Post
Wow no homerism here but maybe you should watch MP play before you make statements like that

Franson and Colborne provide no immediate help to the Oilers, would rather keep Teubert and MP and have them develop with the Oil.
I've watched them all, and personally like none of them at all. ...bottom pairing d-men, and 3rd line forwards the lot of them.

they are the type of players that get traded over and over on trade deadline day.

I know MSP skates well, not as good as Cogs did, and he has less touch than Cogs, and Cogs sucked. ...I'll stick to my Chad Kilger comparison, and if lucky, MSP will be a 15 goal guy in the NHL and take a regular shift

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09-04-2012, 03:51 PM
  #136
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Originally Posted by mydnyte View Post
I've watched them all, and personally like none of them at all. ...bottom pairing d-men, and 3rd line forwards the lot of them.

they are the type of players that get traded over and over on trade deadline day.

I know MSP skates well, not as good as Cogs did, and he has less touch than Cogs, and Cogs sucked. ...I'll stick to my Chad Kilger comparison, and if lucky, MSP will be a 15 goal guy in the NHL and take a regular shift
He's already scored 15 goals in the NHL.

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09-04-2012, 04:20 PM
  #137
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msp is a nice prospect but he would never crack the leafs lineup now or in the future. the leafs depth at the moment is on wing which is why even if a person were to believe msp is the better prospect over colborne, colborne being a center makes him more valuable to the leafs, even if he only ever becomes a 3rd line center.

with a top 6 shaping up like

lupul kessel
jvr mac/kulemin

msp would have a tough time cracking the 3rd line. he would need to beat out one of kulemin/mac/frattin/kadri/connolly/lombardi.

as for teubert, he doesnt excite me much. he might just be an late bloomer but at least franson is already an nhl defenseman even if people argue it is just as a 5-6th and pp specialist.

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09-04-2012, 06:54 PM
  #138
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So Joe Colborne has 3rd line potential which makes his bust less then MPS but MPS has 3rd line potential which makes him a high bust potential.

You say Colborne has size, so does MPS so thats not an advantage, MPS has killer speed so thats not an advantage, MPS is good defensively so thats not an advantage.

So besides the fact Colborne plays for Toronto, what makes him more valuable and less likely to bust because the post I read listed positives for Colborne and ignored the same attributes for MPS

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09-04-2012, 08:25 PM
  #139
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Originally Posted by Maximan89 View Post
Holzer and 2nd seems more realistic.
So you'd do Peckham and a 2nd for Colbourne. That's a better offer but i'm sure you wouldn't take it.

BTW

Paajarvi>Colbourne
Peckham>Holzer

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09-04-2012, 08:34 PM
  #140
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Originally Posted by gabeliscious View Post
msp is a nice prospect but he would never crack the leafs lineup now or in the future. the leafs depth at the moment is on wing which is why even if a person were to believe msp is the better prospect over colborne, colborne being a center makes him more valuable to the leafs, even if he only ever becomes a 3rd line center.

with a top 6 shaping up like

lupul kessel
jvr mac/kulemin

msp would have a tough time cracking the 3rd line. he would need to beat out one of kulemin/mac/frattin/kadri/connolly/lombardi.

as for teubert, he doesnt excite me much. he might just be an late bloomer but at least franson is already an nhl defenseman even if people argue it is just as a 5-6th and pp specialist.
So much fail... Paajarvi is good enough to crack the Leafs in the future. He's going to be a solid NHLer for some time, the debate is how good will he be.

Teubert is a late bloomer? 1st overall WHL bantam draft, 13th overall NHL draft, 2 consecutive WJC apperances, and now in his second pro year he played 1st pairing for one of the AHL's best teams (His D partner Plante was an AHL all star). How is that a late bloomer? This isn't Holzer who's coming off his 23 year old season this is a guy coming off his 21 year old season, and even Holzer isn't yet a late bloomer IMO. Last time i checked defenseman make the NHL on average after 24. Defensive types take even longer. On the LA kings roster they have 3 pure defensive dmen, Mitchell, Scuderi, and Greene. Mitchell was 27, Scuderi 26, and Greene 23 when they cracked NHL rosters full time. Teubert is not a late bloomer by any definition, **** he's the same age as Jake Gardiner who we all now is far ahead of the curve for defenseman. If Gardiner had spent the year in the AHL would he have been considered a late bloomer? Obviously not...

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09-04-2012, 09:36 PM
  #141
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Since EDM has Schultz now Franson is not needed, they need a big shut down dman just like every other team needs.

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09-04-2012, 09:46 PM
  #142
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Originally Posted by mydnyte View Post
my breakdown:

Joe Colborne bust potential med - best case scenario 2nd line 2-way center, more likely 3rd line 2-way center ...has huge size

Franson bust potential minimal - bottom pairing and PP specialist

MSP bust potential high - best case scenario, 2nd line winger, but, no NHL scoring touch makes him a 3rd line energy player ala Chad Kilger

Colten Teubert bust potential med - bottom pairing is calling his name, and he can play for many years there.

3rd - bust potential high. ...not many 3rd round picks make the NHL, or have an impact

...so, Franson is the best player in the deal, and I would say Colborne is the 2nd best, and i see him as a 3rd liner at best.

Leafs pass.
You can't say MPS has no scoring when he got 15 goals his first season. At worse he is a top end shut down 3rd liner that can move up to the 2nd line when an injury occurs and is very good playing a two way game as Colborne takes games off and PRV does not. Franson is just not needed in EDM due to signing Schultz. Once Schultz was signed a player like Franson was no longer needed.

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09-05-2012, 02:05 PM
  #143
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Originally Posted by rockinghockey View Post
You can't say MPS has no scoring when he got 15 goals his first season. At worse he is a top end shut down 3rd liner that can move up to the 2nd line when an injury occurs and is very good playing a two way game as Colborne takes games off and PRV does not. Franson is just not needed in EDM due to signing Schultz. Once Schultz was signed a player like Franson was no longer needed.
i still think all the players involved from both teams are bottom end players, so, really, who cares. ...they all suck, and suck larger as a group.

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09-05-2012, 06:50 PM
  #144
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Take out the forwards and this deal looks fair. I wouldn't trade Pajaarvi for both of those players alone though, his upside is too high, wheras Colborne has struggled and is a longshot to be anything more than a role player, and Franson has too many issues to be a consistent contributor. Teubert and a 3rd for Franson might be an okay deal though, even though Edmonton doesn't really need more 5-6-7 NHL d-men right now.

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09-05-2012, 06:52 PM
  #145
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Originally Posted by mydnyte View Post
my breakdown:

Joe Colborne bust potential med - best case scenario 2nd line 2-way center, more likely 3rd line 2-way center ...has huge size

Franson bust potential minimal - bottom pairing and PP specialist

MSP bust potential high - best case scenario, 2nd line winger, but, no NHL scoring touch makes him a 3rd line energy player ala Chad Kilger

Colten Teubert bust potential med - bottom pairing is calling his name, and he can play for many years there.

3rd - bust potential high. ...not many 3rd round picks make the NHL, or have an impact

...so, Franson is the best player in the deal, and I would say Colborne is the 2nd best, and i see him as a 3rd liner at best.

Leafs pass.
Teubert and Colborne have much higher bust potential than Pajaarvi in my opinion. Even if Pajaarvi doesn't develop his scoring, he'll still be a good defensive forward. Colborne has way more holes in his game, and Teubert is very one dimensional and if he can't transition as a shut down d-man, he isn't going to make it at all. Pajaarvi is the best piece here because his potential is significantly higher, and his bust potential is significantly lower.

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Old
09-06-2012, 08:25 AM
  #146
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Your kidding right. Franson is a unsigned RFA that is a 7th D on a bad defensive team and it's questionable if Colborne will ever make the NHL. You'll get flamed from Oiler fans for this one.
Franson was also paired with Weber for 2 seasons. The reason he wasn't playing had nothing to do with hi play. The Leafs were trying to accomplish something that wasn't possible with their d-pairings.

Franson is a good d-man. You have to blind not to see it. He is young with lots of upside.

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09-06-2012, 09:48 AM
  #147
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Originally Posted by 81Leafs50 View Post
Franson was also paired with Weber for 2 seasons. The reason he wasn't playing had nothing to do with hi play. The Leafs were trying to accomplish something that wasn't possible with their d-pairings.

Franson is a good d-man. You have to blind not to see it. He is young with lots of upside.
In 2009-2010 Franson played primarily with Hamhius or Bouillon. Together these were his partners for over 80% of the time he played ES. Even on the pp Boulion was still his main partner as Franson was not on the first pp unit. Weber played with Suter 85% of the time at ES.

In 2010-2011 he was paired primarily with Shane O'Brien (71% of the time). Weber played almost exclusively with Suter at ES. On the pp Franson again only saw second unit time and played mostly with Blum once Blum made the jump.

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09-06-2012, 12:12 PM
  #148
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In 2009-2010 Franson played primarily with Hamhius or Bouillon. Together these were his partners for over 80% of the time he played ES. Even on the pp Boulion was still his main partner as Franson was not on the first pp unit. Weber played with Suter 85% of the time at ES.

In 2010-2011 he was paired primarily with Shane O'Brien (71% of the time). Weber played almost exclusively with Suter at ES. On the pp Franson again only saw second unit time and played mostly with Blum once Blum made the jump.
That doesn't negate his point - Franson has value as a 2nd pairing guy - top 4 material, not top pairing.

IMO it's one of Franson or Gunnar that are on the outs, just a matter of which one and which deal is available. Franson didn't really get a good run here last year, but we all know that. If Gunnar is moved expect the Franson contract to be inked immediately and slot in his place.

2 guys I'd target from Edmonton are Hartikainen and Ryan Jones. Not sure if either is available for a guy like Gunnarson but from what I know of them both are gritty and other than our 4th line sandbags we have no real grit in our top-9. Kadri doesn't count cause he can't stay on his feet and Kulemin will shy away from any real rough stuff. Lupul shouldn't be fighting, likewise for JVR, and who does that leave? Macarthur?

EDM fans? What's the return look like?

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09-06-2012, 12:19 PM
  #149
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why is franson the guy on the team on the way out? its funny how oiler fans say he is the #7 but imo
phaneuf-gunner
gardiner-franson
komi-liles

those are the best D pairings (maybe swap komi with holzer)

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09-06-2012, 12:30 PM
  #150
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That doesn't negate his point - Franson has value as a 2nd pairing guy - top 4 material, not top pairing.

IMO it's one of Franson or Gunnar that are on the outs, just a matter of which one and which deal is available. Franson didn't really get a good run here last year, but we all know that. If Gunnar is moved expect the Franson contract to be inked immediately and slot in his place.

2 guys I'd target from Edmonton are Hartikainen and Ryan Jones. Not sure if either is available for a guy like Gunnarson but from what I know of them both are gritty and other than our 4th line sandbags we have no real grit in our top-9. Kadri doesn't count cause he can't stay on his feet and Kulemin will shy away from any real rough stuff. Lupul shouldn't be fighting, likewise for JVR, and who does that leave? Macarthur?

EDM fans? What's the return look like?
So far no one has talked about Gunnarsson. He is quite a different story from Franson as far as the Oilers are concerned. The Oilers have little or no need for Franson. Gunnarsson would be able to play in the top 4 easily and would give the team a fair number of options.

I'd easily trade either Hartikainen or Jones for Gunnarsson but I doubt many of your fellow Leaf fans would want this. (Neither Jones or Hartikainen are fighters by the way.)

Franson would be a at best third pairing RHD offensive dman on the Oilers. We've already explained why he would not be in the top two pairs and why he is not needed on the pp. Given that they signed Schultz, he is not really needed at this point.

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