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Hard Salary Cap and the end of NHL trades

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Old
01-22-2005, 01:41 PM
  #51
hockeytown9321
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Originally Posted by Trottier
Racki, for once I agree with you. Under the NFL system, teams can indeed retain their star, core players.

What people miss is that those star players are kept throguh signing bonuses. if there aren't signing bonuses in a hard capped NHL, teams can't hold onto their star players. If there are siging bonuses, the rich teams hae a big advantage.

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01-22-2005, 01:42 PM
  #52
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Originally Posted by The Iconoclast
So what do you want? More movement or less movement? You really have to make up your mind. The sky can't be falling everywhere can it?


Once again its not the movement its HOW the players are moved. I think trades take a little more skill among GM's than UFA signings. I dont like how the movement in the NFL works at all under a hard cap. This is my point. Its not how much or how little its HOW theyre moved. Some people probably dont care at all if a player is moved through trades or free agents, i just happen to find trades a lot more fun to break down and I think the NHL trading deadline is a fun day in hockey. Under a hardcap that day would probably cease to exist.

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01-22-2005, 01:42 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by txomisc
whats to stop it is the nhl isnt going for teh EXACT nfl cap. the signing bonus situation will likely be extremely different from the nfls
whats also stopping them is the huge compensation they have to give up for signing RFAs
Then how do teams keep their star players in a hard capped NHL?

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01-22-2005, 01:43 PM
  #54
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[QUOTE=hockeytown9321]
Quote:
Originally Posted by txomisc
the answer is of course they should be able to make the trade. If theyd managed their money well (ie they arent right at the cap) they wouldnt have to worry about it. Once again the cap will emphasize smart front office work. /QUOTE]

So the Red Wings didn't have smart front office work to get the team to where it was before the Shanahan deal?
umm there was no salary cap so they didnt need to.
Now if there was a salary cap and they werent able to make the trade at the time then no they hadnt managed their money well

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01-22-2005, 01:43 PM
  #55
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[QUOTE=hockeytown9321]
Quote:
Originally Posted by txomisc
the answer is of course they should be able to make the trade. If theyd managed their money well (ie they arent right at the cap) they wouldnt have to worry about it. Once again the cap will emphasize smart front office work. /QUOTE]

So the Red Wings didn't have smart front office work to get the team to where it was before the Shanahan deal?
Hmmm ... aren't you the guy who just said that without Shanahan the Wings don't win those two Cups?

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01-22-2005, 01:44 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by hockeytown9321
Its not a what if question. Why should Detroit and Hartford not have been allowed to make the trade?
Why do you keep asking me the same dumb question?

Youre talking in circles and trying to bait me into saying something I never said is not going to work.

You said they couldnt have made the trade if there was a cap. I said you do not know that. You then said you did not know that.

So why do you keep asking this question that has nothing to do with anything I said?

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01-22-2005, 01:44 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by PeterSidorkiewicz
Once again its not the movement its HOW the players are moved. I think trades take a little more skill among GM's than UFA signings.
So you think a cap would make it easier for poorly run teams to acquire god players? Who woulda thunk it?

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01-22-2005, 01:45 PM
  #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hockeytown9321
What people miss is that those star players are kept throguh signing bonuses. if there aren't signing bonuses in a hard capped NHL, teams can't hold onto their star players. If there are siging bonuses, the rich teams hae a big advantage.
how do you figure? if they cant give signing bonuses then neither can other teams. the players will still resign with their original team. They cant be outbid except in rare cases

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01-22-2005, 01:45 PM
  #59
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Originally Posted by iagreewithidiots
Why do you keep asking me the same dumb question?

Youre talking in circles and trying to bait me into saying something I never said is not going to work.

You said they couldnt have made the trade if there was a cap. I said you do not know that. You then said you did not know that.

So why do you keep asking this question that has nothing to do with anything I said?
Was the trade between Detroit and Hartford fair? Did both teams get fair value? Was it a salary dump?

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01-22-2005, 01:48 PM
  #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hockeytown9321
Then how do teams keep their star players in a hard capped NHL?
players contracts expire. often more than 3 or 4 a year. that gives you the cap room to sign a guy. so maybe 4 contracts expire in a given you and now you can only afford to resign 3 of them with raises...big deal. Your also not accounting for the fact that guys arent gonna get huge payraises. Its just not gonna happen

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01-22-2005, 01:48 PM
  #61
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Originally Posted by txomisc
how do you figure? if they cant give signing bonuses then neither can other teams. the players will still resign with their original team. They cant be outbid except in rare cases
Its not about outbidding. There comes a point where no matter how well a team's cap is managed, they will hit a wall. They won't be able to resign everybody. In the NFL, there are non guaranteed contracts which allow teams to pressure players into restructuring their deals, and the bonus loophole which allows teams to resign their stars without running out of cap space.

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01-22-2005, 01:49 PM
  #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hockeytown9321
Was the trade between Detroit and Hartford fair? Did both teams get fair value? Was it a salary dump?
The wheels on the bus go round and round, round and round, round and round.

Keep on talking in circles to avoid that you are making no sense.

You made a statement then admitted you had no clue if it was true or not.

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01-22-2005, 01:50 PM
  #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iagreewithidiots
The wheels on the bus go round and round, round and round, round and round.

Keep on talking in circles to avoid that you are making no sense.

You made a statement then admitted you had no clue if it was true or not.
Fine, i'm asking you a new question. Please answer it.

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01-22-2005, 01:50 PM
  #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hockeytown9321
What people miss is that those star players are kept throguh signing bonuses. if there aren't signing bonuses in a hard capped NHL, teams can't hold onto their star players. If there are siging bonuses, the rich teams hae a big advantage.
No. You are incorrect. You'd be correct if the use of bonuses were the exclusive right of the players' current teams. It is not. Any NFL team can offer any free agent any bonus it wants. As such, how does this benefit one team over another? It doesn't.
Secondly, bonuses vs. no bonuses makes no difference as long as all the teams are playing under the same rules. Let's say there's a $40 million NHL cap and no bonuses. Let's say the Rangers want to use a a huge chunk of their cap space to sign Jarome Iginla to a four-year, $40 million deal. What stops Calgary from doing the same or better to keep him? Nothing.

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01-22-2005, 01:50 PM
  #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iagreewithidiots
I like when people say the NFL has too much player movement. Like the NHL doesnt have just as much.

The NFL was never huge on trades anyway. If trades in the NHL decrease fans will find something else to yank it and crank it over.
Going by memory other than the trade deadline moves and salary dumps there haven't been that many NHL trades recently either. I'm talking about players in the prime of their career being swapped from team to team.

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01-22-2005, 01:52 PM
  #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hockeytown9321
Its not about outbidding. There comes a point where no matter how well a team's cap is managed, they will hit a wall. They won't be able to resign everybody. In the NFL, there are non guaranteed contracts which allow teams to pressure players into restructuring their deals, and the bonus loophole which allows teams to resign their stars without running out of cap space.
and the same can be true for other teams. If i have a 3 million dollar ufa who wants a raise to 5 million and i dont the cap room he is either gonna have to find a team that does have the cap room or take what i can afford to give him. More than likely tho he is not gonna get that 5 million anywhere

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01-22-2005, 01:53 PM
  #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hockeytown9321
What people miss is that those star players are kept throguh signing bonuses. if there aren't signing bonuses in a hard capped NHL, teams can't hold onto their star players. If there are siging bonuses, the rich teams hae a big advantage.
Additionally, the NFL system has a much more liberal UFA threshold, and non-guaranteed contracts. And, of course, ridiculou$ revenue streams and a sharing of those revenues among franchsies.

Just tiny, tiny details conveniently glossed over by some!

I mean, does anyone delusionally believe that the owners are going to get a hardcap AND a strict UFA age AND guaranteed contracts?! :lol

That would translate into going back to the Stone Age (pre-union) for player's and any semblance of economic freedom.

So, instead, as you know (but other's apparently don't), in exchange for a hardcap, a significantly lower UFA age will be granted.

Can't wait to read the reaction of the pro-hardcapper in Atlanta, once Kovalchuk and Heatley skip town at age 25 (in a couple of years)!

Or the hardcap demagague in Minnesota, once Gaborik flees at 25!

Or the hardcapanista fan of the team who drafts Crosby...and gets to retain and develop him for several seasons...just long enough so that he can flee to another team!

Or, best yet, the hardcap fan in Ottawa who sees his team resign Hossa, Havlat and Chara...but has to let Fisher and Redden go in order to still stay under the glorious cap!

Yep, a fantasy league on ice. Suited just perfectly for the mentality of some here.


Last edited by Trottier: 01-22-2005 at 02:02 PM.
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01-22-2005, 01:53 PM
  #68
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Originally Posted by hockeytown9321
Fine, i'm asking you a new question. Please answer it.
Ive had enough answering pointless questions for one day. Maybe tomorrow.

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01-22-2005, 01:56 PM
  #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hockeytown9321
Its not about outbidding. There comes a point where no matter how well a team's cap is managed, they will hit a wall. They won't be able to resign everybody. In the NFL, there are non guaranteed contracts which allow teams to pressure players into restructuring their deals, and the bonus loophole which allows teams to resign their stars without running out of cap space.
also of course you know signing bonuses DO indeed count against the cap in the nfl.

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01-22-2005, 01:56 PM
  #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trottier
Additionally, the NFL system has a much more liberal UFA threshold and, of course, non-guaranteed contracts.

Just tiny, tiny details conveniently glossed over by some!

I mean, does anyone delusionally believe that the owners are going to get a hardcap AND a strict UFA age AND guaranteed contracts?! :lol

That would translate into going back to the Stone Age (pre-union) for player's and any semblance of economic freedom.

So, instead, as you know (but other's apparently don't), in exchange for a hardcap, a significantly lower UFA age will be granted.

Can't wait to read the reaction of the pro-hardcapper in Atlanta, once Kovalchuk and Heatley skip town at age 25 (in a couple of years)!

Or the hardcap demagoague in Minnesota, once Gaborik flees at 25!

Or the hardcapanista fan of the team who drafts Crosby...and gets to retain and develop him for several seasons...just long enough so that he can flee to another team!

Or, best yet, the hardcap fan in Ottawa who sees his team resign Hossa, Havlat and Chara...but has to let Fisher and Redden go in order to still stay under the glorious cap!

Yep, a fantasy league on ice. Suited just perfectly for the mentality of some here.

Trottier you probably put that in better words than I ever could have. I totally agree with all of those statements. If there IS a hardcap I cannot just WAIT for the same people to start complaining how the cap stinks pretty soon. And maybe not all of you, but I know some of you will atleast.

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01-22-2005, 01:57 PM
  #71
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Originally Posted by CarlRacki
No. You are incorrect. You'd be correct if the use of bonuses were the exclusive right of the players' current teams. It is not. Any NFL team can offer any free agent any bonus it wants. As such, how does this benefit one team over another? It doesn't.
Right, it doesn't. In the NFL, there is extensive revenue sharing. Each of the 32 teams can afford any bonus thrown their way.

In the NHL however, there are major revenue disparities and no plan for much revenue sharing. The teams which produce the most revenue are able to pay more money to players under any system. Therefore, the rich teams have an advantage.

I really don't know how to explain it any better.

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01-22-2005, 01:59 PM
  #72
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Oh well.....as long as Bobby Holik doesn't make 9 mill a season anymore. I'd prefer a trade system that is like in the NBA, where it must be within 20% of eachother for a trade to be approved, there are no salary dump trades, in that case the Lang deal wouldn't have happened, the Kovalev deal, so many lopsided deals would be prevented.

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01-22-2005, 01:59 PM
  #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hockeytown9321
Right, it doesn't. In the NFL, there is extensive revenue sharing. Each of the 32 teams can afford any bonus thrown their way.

In the NHL however, there are major revenue disparities and no plan for much revenue sharing. The teams which produce the most revenue are able to pay more money to players under any system. Therefore, the rich teams have an advantage.

I really don't know how to explain it any better.
they are not able to pay more money than other teams. they can only pay more money upfront than other teams

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01-22-2005, 01:59 PM
  #74
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Originally Posted by iagreewithidiots
Ive had enough answering pointless questions for one day. Maybe tomorrow.
OK, I'll be waiting. Seems like a simple enoguh question, don't know why you'd need a day to think about it, but whatever.

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01-22-2005, 01:59 PM
  #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trottier
Additionally, the NFL system has a much more liberal UFA threshold and, of course, non-guaranteed contracts.

Just tiny, tiny details conveniently glossed over by some!

I mean, does anyone delusionally believe that the owners are going to get a hardcap AND a strict UFA age AND guaranteed contracts?! :lol

That would translate into going back to the Stone Age (pre-union) for player's and any semblance of economic freedom.

So, instead, as you know (but other's apparently don't), in exchange for a hardcap, a significantly lower UFA age will be granted.

Can't wait to read the reaction of the pro-hardcapper in Atlanta, once Kovalchuk and Heatley skip town at age 25 (in a couple of years)!

Or the hardcap demagoague in Minnesota, once Gaborik flees at 25!

Or the hardcapanista fan of the team who drafts Crosby...and gets to retain and develop him for several seasons...just long enough so that he can flee to another team!

Or, best yet, the hardcap fan in Ottawa who sees his team resign Hossa, Havlat and Chara...but has to let Fisher and Redden go in order to still stay under the glorious cap!

Yep, a fantasy league on ice. Suited just perfectly for the mentality of some here.
Actually, what you outline is what many of the pro-PA conspiracy whackos have been saying for weeks around here. The lockout, you see, is a grand scheme to insure that nearly all the good players in the league wind up in New York, Chicago and LA with a smattering of them in places like Detroit, Dallas, Philly and Toronto. It's so obvious, isnt it.

Once again, the NFL system has proven that star players don't flee their teams often when given unrestricted free agency. If Green Bay can keep Brett Favre and Ahman Green (not to mention land Reggie White), I think Atlanta, Minnesota and Ottawa will be just fine.

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