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Who to blame?

View Poll Results: Who holds more blame?
Pat Quinn (GM/Head Coach) 27 87.10%
Mats Sundin 4 12.90%
Voters: 31. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
01-19-2005, 01:56 PM
  #1
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Who to blame?

Who holds more responsibility for not atleast making it to the Stanley Cup finals in the last 6 years?

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01-19-2005, 01:57 PM
  #2
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Neither of them.

The Leafs have done an incredible job of putting together the right team, it just seems that they end up in too many rough, 7 game series. Look back at the Carolina series for the evidence, we just couldn't play any more games, we had minor leaguers doing well, and stars injured. The Leafs have performed outstandingly in the playoffs in large part because of Quinn/Sundin, they've just run into hot teams at the wrong time.

No other team could have beaten the Sens 4 series in a row.

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01-19-2005, 01:59 PM
  #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GregStack
Neither of them.
That would be an option, but it's not.

If you choose neither, don't vote.

You can see the result by clicking the "View Results" option.

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01-19-2005, 02:01 PM
  #4
Charge_Seven
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carl O'Steen
That would be an option, but it's not.

If you choose neither, don't vote.

You can see the result by clicking the "View Results" option.
I'm quite aware of how to do so, but thank you :-)

I just tossed out my thoughts for viewing.

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01-19-2005, 02:01 PM
  #5
Patty Lee
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carl O'Steen
Who holds more responsibility for not atleast making it to the Stanley Cup finals in the last 6 years?
since you worded it "blame more" I will vote, and for Quinn obviously (to me anyway). I don't think he is totally to blame, but do think he got out coached in a number of games/series. Sundin has no more blame than any player, and a lot less than most.

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01-19-2005, 02:09 PM
  #6
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brutal.

we must miss the nhl more then we even know!

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Old
01-19-2005, 02:16 PM
  #7
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Brutal is right. I think a better poll would have been "How painful would the last 6 years have been without those two?

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01-19-2005, 02:16 PM
  #8
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How can you blame one player instead of the coach/GM?

I would go so far as to say it's COMPLETELY Quinn's fault.

There's no escape here for him.

Team's not disciplined enough? Coach.

Team can't ever play consistent defence? Coach...unless he hasn't enough talent, in which case you look at the GM...however, it's still Quinn.

Team's too injured? Whose bright idea was it to have a core of 35-40 year old players, again???

How is it NOT all Quinn's fault?

How is it possible to blame Sundin AT ALL?

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01-19-2005, 02:48 PM
  #9
Mess
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PepNCheese
How can you blame one player instead of the coach/GM?

I would go so far as to say it's COMPLETELY Quinn's fault.

There's no escape here for him.

Team's not disciplined enough? Coach.

Team can't ever play consistent defence? Coach...unless he hasn't enough talent, in which case you look at the GM...however, it's still Quinn.

Team's too injured? Whose bright idea was it to have a core of 35-40 year old players, again???

How is it NOT all Quinn's fault?

How is it possible to blame Sundin AT ALL?
I agree 100% ..

Quinn has had complete control and influence of this team for the past 5 years ... The only thing leaf fans have to show for it is respectability from the previous decade in regular season points ... However that compliment is short lived in that I believe that 1/2 the leaf posters on the forum given the budget Quinn had and the veterans on the team could just about accomplished the same ,and a real GM and coach much more ...

What has Quinn done really ... He simply buys the best players his money can as UFA like Roberts and Cujo/Belfour and Mogilny and sits back and taps them on the shoulder when they are the next line on the ice ... and decides if Hoglund gets to play with Sundin for years or perhaps Mogilny might be a better idea.

I get a kick out of how other teams UFA are in great demand throughout the league .. but Quinn's hand picked Players Hoglund, Reichel, Renberg, Khristich, Lumme, Housley etc etc are either Leafs or OUT OF THE NHL completely, not even good enough for bottom NHL feeders to think they could help them at any price .. and certainly not the prices that Quinn's as GM feels they deserve. Yet these are the same players that us Fans hold out hope will be good enough to bring a Cup to Toronto... complicating that further is that the players that he lets go Stevie Sullivan, Jason Smith, Dani Markov, Alyn McCauley are all key players in the NHL that Leaf fans included would love to have back ... Strange how that works ..


Ask yourself what really has he done .. He has so many great leaders on the Ice .. Sundin, Roberts , Newy, Leetch .. What kind of instruction would that take as a coach .. I bet he gets more input from those players that have been successful elsewhere, and combined with all the PURCHASED skill a TRAINED CHIMP could coach like Quinn does ..


Last edited by Mess: 01-19-2005 at 02:54 PM.
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01-19-2005, 02:56 PM
  #10
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i blame the flyers and canes and any other teams that beat us

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01-19-2005, 03:09 PM
  #11
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Quote:
I get a kick out of how other teams UFA are in great demand throughout the league .. but Quinn's hand picked Players Hoglund, Reichel, Renberg, Khristich, Lumme, Housley etc etc are either Leafs or OUT OF THE NHL completely, not even good enough for bottom NHL feeders to think they could help them at any price
Good point.

I laughed my guts out when Hoglund was FINALLY turfed from the Leafs, and exposed for the joke he is when the PANTHERS cut him.

People defended this guy to me up and down as the right choice for Sundin's wing...it was unbelieveable how these Quinnites tried to convince me that Hoagie was a genuine top-6 player.

I know a crap player when I see one. God knows the Leafs have put enough of them out there, even in The Golden Age Of Second-Round Exits under Quinn.

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01-19-2005, 03:11 PM
  #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kardi
i blame the flyers and canes and any other teams that beat us
Good point & you could add NJ to that list ...

Damn those well coached , hard working, strong system oriented teams that bread playoff success for beating us ...

Why can't they be burden with incompetent management that we have to endure year after year.. ??

Hey ....but look on the bright side ... Their bringing Quinn back, so at least we know where we stand, and I don't have to get my hopes up that suddenly anything is going to change for the better.

All that is left to be determined if we will be eliminated in the first round or squeak through, hoping our luck holds out and Eddie can keep shutting out teams like the Sens 3 out of the 4 wins , just to see my team humiliated in the 2nd round ...

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01-19-2005, 03:28 PM
  #13
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Where's the Rick Ley option?

He's the one responsible for the defensive corps, the Leafs supposed Achilles heal for all these years.

But I guess I'll have to go with Quinn then seeing as how he's the one that kept his little lapdog around.

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01-19-2005, 03:46 PM
  #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carl O'Steen
Who holds more responsibility for not atleast making it to the Stanley Cup finals in the last 6 years?
Neither their is no I in team. There is a number of reasons why they did not make the finals. But it is not fair to put the blame on either of these two individuals. It is comforting as a fan to have a scape goat. I hate coming on here and always reading trash talk of Quinn and Sundin. In my opinion they are the biggest reasons why the Leafs have been able to be as sucussfull for the last number of years.

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01-19-2005, 03:49 PM
  #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Messenger
Good point & you could add NJ to that list ...

Damn those well coached , hard working, strong system oriented teams that bread playoff success for beating us ...

Why can't they be burden with incompetent management that we have to endure year after year.. ??

Hey ....but look on the bright side ... Their bringing Quinn back, so at least we know where we stand, and I don't have to get my hopes up that suddenly anything is going to change for the better.

All that is left to be determined if we will be eliminated in the first round or squeak through, hoping our luck holds out and Eddie can keep shutting out teams like the Sens 3 out of the 4 wins , just to see my team humiliated in the 2nd round ...
However the team that "humiliated" them was so beaten up after playing the Leafs they couldn't get any further afterwards.

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01-19-2005, 04:36 PM
  #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mooseOAK
However the team that "humiliated" them was so beaten up after playing the Leafs they couldn't get any further afterwards.
Nope your wrong again ...

Just further out coached & out GMed again by the TB coach in this case ..

His team traded the pick 4th overall (Pitkanen) for Ruslan Fedotenko and he scored 10 goals in the playoffs including both in the final game to win the team the Stanley Cup .. Fedokenko also scored the series winning goal that eliminated his old team the Flyers ..

Only coach to give Martin St. Louis the chance to play and he was NHL scoring Champ and League MVP ..

No there are qualified people out there you are just used to mediocrity for so long you cat see it .. but its there as plain as the nose on your face ..


Last edited by Mess: 01-19-2005 at 05:24 PM.
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01-19-2005, 04:55 PM
  #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Messenger
Nope your wrong again ...

Just further out coached & out GMed again by the TB coach in this case ..

His team traded the pick 4th overall (Pitkanen) for Ruslan Fedotenko and he scored 10 goals in the playoffs including both in the final game to win the team the Stanley Cup .. Only coach to give Martin St. Louis the chance to play and he was NHL scoring Champ and League MVP ..

No there are qualified people out there you are just used to mediocrity for so long you cat see it .. but its there as plain as the nose on your face ..
So every year the NHL has one smart coach and GM and 29 or so stupid ones. If so, how is any team going to find a decent coach or GM?

Maybe St. Louis finally started to do the things last year that coaches were teling him to do for the previous 6 pro seasons.

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01-19-2005, 05:11 PM
  #18
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until Mats has talent with him, Leafs will not win. Mats needs a guy to ride shotgun with him who is at the same level as Mats or very close someone like Naslund, Alfredsson. I blame Quinn, he should ahve done a btter job getting better suporting cast for Mats, Leafs managements gets players who are older and have problem with injuries, for example, Moginly, Nolan. You cannot blame Mats, he is one of the best players in the league and shows up to play everynight, and scores big goals when the game is on the line. He needs some real talent with him, for example Paul Kariya he would be great with Mats. The Leafs management miss out on Kariya type of players and land older players.

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01-19-2005, 05:20 PM
  #19
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The only vote I choose to cast in this matter is that it is entirely biased (assuming that one or the other is to blame - a more honest poll would include as a choice, "none of the above,") and the topic is ridiculous. Six straight years in the playoffs with Quinn as coach and Sundin as captain and we are assessing blame to one of these fellows?

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01-19-2005, 05:31 PM
  #20
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I wouldn't pick either of them as a major reason why, or the biggest reason. But if I have to pick one, Quinn is much more of a reason than Sundin.

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01-19-2005, 06:06 PM
  #21
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I've heard a lot of arguements over the years. Why doesn't Toronto make trades to get players at the deadline that could help them win the cup? They did it, it sometimes blew up in their face, but they did it. Tonnes of Toronto fans were excited when guys like Roberts, Mogilney, Nieuwendyk, Leetch were brought to Toronto. And yet when we don't win, you blame it on old players that you say management shouldn't have gotten. Old players can't win championships? If you look back the past few Stanley Cups, maybe besides last year, the teams that won had a largely veteran core, New Jersey, Detroit, Colorado, Dallas. For a while it was believed that the way to win was on the backs of good veteran players. Quinn, like a lot of other GM's went with the trend of buying old players to help get his team over the hump, but like some other GM's it didn't work out for him, and Toronto. Fns opinions change from year to year on how to win a cup, and that is primarily based on who won it last. Last year Tampa won, with a largely young group of players, so you guys automatically blame it on old bodies that couldn't keep up with younger players. Accept that, Toronto wasn't beaten by the cup winning team, or even the cup challenging team. They were beaten by a team full of veteran players aswell, and Ottawa, one of those teams with all the young guys you people want so badly, well Toronto beat them again. Like all gm's, and coaches, Quinn has made some bad decisions, and some good ones. Sundin has taken some pretty freakin bad penalties in important games, at really bad times, so he is NOT un touchable as far as blame is concerned. So, my point is, Quinn is not to blame, Sundin is not to blame, it just happens that each year, Toronto has to face someone, that maybe weren't always better then them, ie Carolina, but at that point, they were.

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01-19-2005, 07:34 PM
  #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Around in 67
since you worded it "blame more" I will vote, and for Quinn obviously (to me anyway). I don't think he is totally to blame, but do think he got out coached in a number of games/series. Sundin has no more blame than any player, and a lot less than most.
My views exactly. I like Quinn however he's pulled ssome questionable moves in the post-season, never mind in the front office.

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01-19-2005, 09:11 PM
  #23
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Cliff Fletcher.

He left the team a shambles in 1997. Mike Murphy having a team that couldn't play defense for the life of themselves was disastrous. Pat Quinn came in and took the shackles off and played to the strength of the team. Quinn worked miracles with the team in 1999. They were very soft and very thin depth wise. Over the next couple years and couple beatings by the Devils (and they would have won the series and maybe if Domi hadn't awoke the team by KOing Niedermayer), they built the team to beat the Devils, which was the right move because they were the power of the Conference. The year they lost to Carolina, they never should have gotten past the first round because of injuries, but they gutted one out vs the Islanders and the Senators don't have the testicular fortitude. Unfortunately they didn't have anything left when they reached the Conference final. The two years they have lost to Philly is because of lack of skill players. They built the team to be tough and handle Jersey (who are now in decline) and couldn't keep up with the speed of the Flyers (and McCabe is the last guy you want next to you with a grenade in his hands!)

The team has made the moves to win, unfortunately they were a year or two behind with their plan. They were not proactive, they were reactionary.

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01-19-2005, 09:25 PM
  #24
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Quinn, if anyone.

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01-19-2005, 09:30 PM
  #25
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Rand.

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