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Better Vision: Tavares vs RNH?

View Poll Results: Better vision?
Tavares 96 56.14%
RNH 75 43.86%
Voters: 171. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
08-30-2012, 06:55 PM
  #51
redbull
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An an NHL player, Nugent-Hopkins is more impressive at 18 than Tavares was.

Tavares' game has improved drastically, especially this past season and I expect another surge this year (in the NHL or KHL )

I also expect RNH will be a far better player when he's 21, even better at 24, etc.

Pure playmaking and passing, on-ice vision - hard to pick anyone ahead of Tavares that isn't Crosby (and that includes Henrik Sedin, Joe Thornton, Pavel Datsyuk, St. Louis, Spezza, RNH and other great set-up players.)

RNH will be a great player, no doubt. He'll probably be a Henrik Sedin type, better skater and shiftier, maybe not as good along the boards.

I expect Tavares to be a better player when he reaches his max potential. His hockey instincts, especially on offense, are spectacular. And although his first two seasons had pretty uninspiring numbers, this past season he was amazing. The numbers don't tell the story.

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08-30-2012, 06:59 PM
  #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PoncheeZ View Post
I was always amazed at how much Tavares was able to score in the OHL. He wasn't the biggest, strongest, or fastest, his shot wasn't the hardest, or fastest, and he didn't have the quickest release. But he ALWAYS knew where to be. He reminded me of Corey Perry because he overcame his lack of physical abilities with his high hockey IQ and his sixth sense around the net. For my money, he's the best goal scorer in the league from the hash-marks in, and I fully expect him to breakout any year now and challenge for the rocket.
Love this post. I felt that JT was the least physically impressive #1 overall pick in recent memory. Unimpressive in terms of physical tools that he had. Wasn't a blazing skater, not blessed with great size, didn't have a killer shot - nothing that really stood out about him other than his sick mitts. Yet he has consistently been 'the man' amongst his contemporaries. It's a testament to how amazing his hockey sense is and really what sets him apart from the pack, he thinks the game at a level that few can match.

Now that Tavares' physical tools are catching up to his mind, the sky is the limit for him. This kid is dedicated and works his butt off to improve so you know he'll be prepared. He's been more of a playmaker so far in his career, but he could breakout just like you've mentioned. As well as refining his skating, he's been focusing on his shot this summer so he make a big jump in goals next season.

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08-30-2012, 07:29 PM
  #53
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Tavares is my choice



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08-30-2012, 08:03 PM
  #54
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Too early to tell. Tavares right now probably.

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08-30-2012, 08:14 PM
  #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Layne Staley View Post
Tavares easily.He is better then any of the "big" 4.He put up #s every season so far.
Hall and Tavares have nearly identical ppg in both their 18 and 19 year old seasons, Hall has the slight advantage overall.

Ryan Nugent Hopkins put up the best 18 year old season by a center in the past 22 years other than Crosby and Lindros in terms of ppg. If we include 19 year olds too then Arnott beat him by .03, Kopitar beat him by .01, and Toews matched him. So he's tied for 5th best season by a teenager in the last 22 years. If we include wingers only Kane bested him. Tavares is ranked 10th for centers 0.18 behind Hopkins.

Yakupov hasn't played a game nobody has any idea how good he will be.

The only Oiler the same age as Tavares was Jordan Eberle, he had a .97 ppg and Tavares a .99 ppg.

I'm not saying any of these guys are going to be better but there are certainly arguments for all of them that they may end up anywhere from worse, to equal, or better than Tavares. Other than Eberle all Tavares has accomplished over the big 4 is being older, and Eberle scored at virtually the same rate. At their current rate all of them are projecting to be excellent players in their own right just like Tavares. No need to try and insinuate who will be the best this early in their careers, it might even remain debatable throughout. Tavares hasn't proven himself as a generational talent there is reasonable debate as to how good he will be. He's still got a chance at a Sakic type career but that kind of greatness is not certain and still possible for the Oiler 4 too. At the end of the day we're talking about 5 expceptional players with unknown potential.

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08-30-2012, 08:23 PM
  #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Faidh ar Rud Eigin View Post
people have been talking about Tavares vision being extremely high (All time great good) since before he was drafted in the OHL, people didn't say that about RNH untill he was drafted by Edmonton (And about the only people saying are people from Edmonton).
The bolded is highly innacurate. The whole hype with Hopkins since he was 16 has been his vision, hockey sense, playmaking ability. Living in Western Canada i can tell you Hopkins has been highly touted since he was in midget (BC player of the year) and it's always been for his vision. No player in recent memory has been as highly hyped for his vision by the scouts in recent memory, it got him drafted 1st. If you think it's Tavares with the better vision that's fine and reasonable enough, he's a great player. But what you wrote just isn't true.

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08-30-2012, 08:27 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by Faidh ar Rud Eigin View Post
I never said no one talked about his vision, but no one ever suggested he had vision that would rival the best players in the league if not be at the top of them.
You realize he went 1st overall for a reason? 1st freaking overall. You should know how good of a player that gets you.

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08-30-2012, 08:31 PM
  #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by redbull View Post
An an NHL player, Nugent-Hopkins is more impressive at 18 than Tavares was.

Tavares' game has improved drastically, especially this past season and I expect another surge this year (in the NHL or KHL )

I also expect RNH will be a far better player when he's 21, even better at 24, etc.

Pure playmaking and passing, on-ice vision - hard to pick anyone ahead of Tavares that isn't Crosby (and that includes Henrik Sedin, Joe Thornton, Pavel Datsyuk, St. Louis, Spezza, RNH and other great set-up players.)

RNH will be a great player, no doubt. He'll probably be a Henrik Sedin type, better skater and shiftier, maybe not as good along the boards.

I expect Tavares to be a better player when he reaches his max potential. His hockey instincts, especially on offense, are spectacular. And although his first two seasons had pretty uninspiring numbers, this past season he was amazing. The numbers don't tell the story.
I agree and that is what most people on HF don't understand about Tavares. You really have to watch Tavares for a full season to get the full story with how amazing of a player he is, you really can't just look at the stats. But that is how HF is, stats are generally all that matters.

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08-30-2012, 08:36 PM
  #59
Faidh ar Rud Eigin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eskimo44 View Post
The bolded is highly innacurate. The whole hype with Hopkins since he was 16 has been his vision, hockey sense, playmaking ability. Living in Western Canada i can tell you Hopkins has been highly touted since he was in midget (BC player of the year) and it's always been for his vision. No player in recent memory has been as highly hyped for his vision by the scouts in recent memory, it got him drafted 1st. If you think it's Tavares with the better vision that's fine and reasonable enough, he's a great player. But what you wrote just isn't true.
Does recent memory exclude any dates before 2009? Tavares was hyped for having the same sixth sense on the ice Gretzky had. Vision is not all about playmaking, great vision creates goals, prevents opponent scoring chances. This is where people are confusing vision, it's not just playmaking where RNH has the edge.

RNH was hyped for his vision but he was not hyped for having generational talent level vision, that "hype" came after RNH was drafted (And when it became clear the Oilers would take him, that comment about RNH having the best vision since Gretzky doesn't mean much). Tavares had that hype when he was 14.

It's not uncommon for people to pick and chose what they reply to but it's still pretty stupid. No where did I say he wasn't regarded for his vision, I said he wasn't regarded for having the vision that Oilers fans claim he has until right around draft day 2011.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eskimo44 View Post
You realize he went 1st overall for a reason? 1st freaking overall. You should know how good of a player that gets you.
What does that have to do with anything? 1st overall =/= all time great level talent. There's a difference between a Stamkos and an Erik Johnson, a Crosby and a Marc-Andre Fleury.

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Old
08-30-2012, 10:13 PM
  #60
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Johnny T. His vision is unbelievable.

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08-30-2012, 10:26 PM
  #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ben Dover View Post
It seems Islander fans are always saying how underrated Moulson is, yet they always throw him under the bus when trying to make Tavares look good. That comment is ridiculous.
Don't generalize, you'll notice it's a very, very small select few who use whatever argument suits the thread best. If it's an underrated thread, it's pro Moulson (or even Parenteau) and if it's a thread like this, it's anti-"AHLer" Moulson.

Annoys the hell out of me.

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08-30-2012, 11:12 PM
  #62
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Very close, both elite talents. Can't go wrong with either of them, however I chose Tavares. His playmaking skills are about equal, but its the creativity the gives him the nod, the kid can make passes and plays out of nothing. I would love to have RNH on the Isles though, the kid is a beast, especially on the PP.

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08-30-2012, 11:26 PM
  #63
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Tavares is the better playmaker and his goalscoring is way better. The guy has basically turned AHL'ers as his linemates into bonafide and legit top 6 players in the NHL.

No disrespect to guys like Moulson, Parenteau etc but if not for Tavares they wouldn't be as good as they are.

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08-30-2012, 11:28 PM
  #64
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RNH. His vision was compared to Gretzky's during his draft year and hasn't disappointed since.

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08-31-2012, 01:02 AM
  #65
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Originally Posted by Kershaw View Post
RNH. His vision was compared to Gretzky's during his draft year and hasn't disappointed since.
And Tavares wasn't/has disappointed?

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08-31-2012, 01:03 AM
  #66
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Tavares.

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08-31-2012, 02:35 AM
  #67
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08-31-2012, 06:55 AM
  #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by redbull View Post
Pure playmaking and passing, on-ice vision - hard to pick anyone ahead of Tavares that isn't Crosby (and that includes Henrik Sedin, Joe Thornton, Pavel Datsyuk, St. Louis, Spezza, RNH and other great set-up players.)
This may be the most ridiculous thing I've ever read. Sedin has 107 more assists than Tavares the last three years. Thornton has 59 more. Datsyuk has 9 more in 40 less games. St. Louis has 64 more. Spezza has 2 more in 40 fewer games.

Seriously, I don't think I've ever seen a player overrated as much as Tavares is getting.

For ***** and giggles, Eric Staal, a goal scorer, has 12 more assists in thirteen less games and he plays with even worse linemates than Tavares.

Ovechkin has 20 more assists in 13 less games. Kovalchuk has 1 more assist in a lot fewer games. I could go on.

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08-31-2012, 07:20 AM
  #69
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Originally Posted by Faidh ar Rud Eigin View Post
I never said no one talked about his vision, but no one ever suggested he had vision that would rival the best players in the league if not be at the top of them. That didn't start to happen until Edmonton drafted him. His vision got compared to Brad Richards and Pavel Datsyuk, guys with top 10/15 vision but not to Crosby/prime Joe Thornton and the worst of all, Gretzky. Tavares has always had his vision talked about being potentially the best in the NHL.

The rookie stats are irrelevant. RNH played with Eberle and Hall, a near PPG player and another 1st overall player. Tavares never played with even close to that level of talent.
Nevermind Crosby and Thornton. RNH's vision was being compared to Gretzky's in his draft year(the scouts and media's comparison. Not mine)...and that started well before the Oilers drafted him. Also, people who watched the WHL were comparing RNH's vision to the very best for a long time. Like I said before, he wasn't as famous or as good of a junior player but people who actually were watching him were very excited about him.
...and even if it did start once he got to Edmonton(which it didn't). You could just say that it started once he got to the NHL and everyone was able to see him.

I don't fully understand why we're even talking about junior when apparently rookie NHL seasons are irrelevant. Yes, they were in different situations...but you can still look at those situations. RNH almost single handedly took the Oilers PP from the bottom of the league to top 3. Like I mentioned before, Eberle had about a 30 game stretch this season where he played at a 55 goal/110 point pace. Coincidence that RNH got hurt and then he declined?

...and even if the rookie stats are irrelevant. Just look at this season.

RNH had 34 assists in 62 games(45 assist pace) as an 18 year old rookie.
Tavares had 50 assists in 82 games as a 21 year old in his 3rd season.

Take into consideration that it took a couple weeks to find his game when he came back from injury(only 1 assist in his first 6 games back) and it's even closer than the stat line shows.

Quote:
Originally Posted by seafoam View Post
Tavares is my choice



Nice to see "The Nuge" backchecking hard
Potter was -16 in only 62 games this season but good for Tavares He kinda just got out of Tavares way even before he made the move That was very nice though.

Here's a RNH video.


Last edited by Wheatking: 08-31-2012 at 07:33 AM.
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Old
08-31-2012, 08:52 AM
  #70
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Tavares.

It's his vision and play around the net that makes him so incredible.

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08-31-2012, 08:55 AM
  #71
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Originally Posted by Shutdown Sutter View Post
This may be the most ridiculous thing I've ever read. Sedin has 107 more assists than Tavares the last three years. Thornton has 59 more. Datsyuk has 9 more in 40 less games. St. Louis has 64 more. Spezza has 2 more in 40 fewer games.

Seriously, I don't think I've ever seen a player overrated as much as Tavares is getting.

For ***** and giggles, Eric Staal, a goal scorer, has 12 more assists in thirteen less games and he plays with even worse linemates than Tavares.

Ovechkin has 20 more assists in 13 less games. Kovalchuk has 1 more assist in a lot fewer games. I could go on.
Nice to see you're still on your anti-Tavares crusade.

BTW, Tavares still outscored all but 3 of those guys last season(one of which, Sedin, he tied). Explain how a player who does that at 21 with basically no supporting cast is "overrated."

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08-31-2012, 09:06 AM
  #72
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Going with Tavares here.

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Old
08-31-2012, 10:22 AM
  #73
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Originally Posted by Shutdown Sutter View Post
This may be the most ridiculous thing I've ever read. Sedin has 107 more assists than Tavares the last three years. Thornton has 59 more. Datsyuk has 9 more in 40 less games. St. Louis has 64 more. Spezza has 2 more in 40 fewer games.

Seriously, I don't think I've ever seen a player overrated as much as Tavares is getting.

For ***** and giggles, Eric Staal, a goal scorer, has 12 more assists in thirteen less games and he plays with even worse linemates than Tavares.

Ovechkin has 20 more assists in 13 less games. Kovalchuk has 1 more assist in a lot fewer games. I could go on.
oh, thanks for the statistics. I was wondering where I could find those. And I also learned that Blake Wheeler, Ray Whitney and PA Parenteau are also awesome.

refer to my post where I express how drastically Tavares improved LAST YEAR. When he reached the same point total that mister Sedin got at the age of 27, in his TENTH YEAR of pro hockey.

Tavares is severely underrated. If you watch 5-6 Isles games in a row (yes, I know, the horror) it will be obvious to anyone. Unfortunately, nobody in hockey watches Isles games, no media, nobody except lowly HF posters.

Fans overrate their players all the time, no exceptions.
In THIS CASE, it's not overrating.

And frankly, RNH may be overrated by some Oilers fans, for now, but it won't be long until he's one of the elite scorers.

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08-31-2012, 10:23 AM
  #74
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08-31-2012, 02:28 PM
  #75
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Originally Posted by Kevin27NYI View Post
And Tavares wasn't/has disappointed?
No. Way to put words into my mouth.

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