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Episode IX|The Off-Season Thread|It's... still the offseason.

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Old
09-08-2012, 12:49 PM
  #176
Til the End of Time
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Originally Posted by Rowdy Roddy Peeper View Post
The entire team didn't suck though. That's a gross oversimplification.

You're right, Crosby did get outplayed by Giroux. Malkin did get contained by Couturier. But they didn't suck, they just didn't play up to their usual high standards while the Flyers played above theirs.

Letang's in that same boat. He's a product of a blanket revisionist history that's too lazy to evaluate each player on his own merits that series.

Production's a big part of a player's value, and when they're dominant in that respect, they deserve consideration.

Karlsson's already better than Green was defensively during his glory days, and is producing similar numbers without the benefit of a powerhouse offense like the Caps. I prefer Weber, but Karlsson was as good a Norris choice as any.



But you are suggesting that these teenagers will be able to make a well-rounded 50 point defenseman redundant in 2 years. I like our blueline prospect pool as much as anyone, but that's just not reasonable.

I'm not sure if you want a blueline comprised entirely of kids in their early 20s, or you think we're just going to get a better defenseman than Letang in free agency for less than he'd sign for, or what. It seems hyper-optimistic to me.

Martin and Orpik - you jettison. Letang - you build around.

It's really, really not. One was a depreciating asset on a 35+ contract, the other is a 25 year old coming into his prime.

That would've been a good idea for the Kings last fall, eh?
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Originally Posted by Ogrezilla View Post
I was going to write a big thing about why, but then I realized I'm responding to a post that basically used the "nu uh" argument and then pointed out his biggest flaw as if it was other people's fault.
ha yeah this is basically my response to your post, Rowdy Roddy Peeper.

were not going to see eye to eye on this letang thing, so i dont want to belabor the point anymore.

one thing i really do take exception to though, one dead horse i really want to beat, is your notion that its revisionist history to suggest letang was terrible in the playoffs. i remember reading your thread on the main boards talking about letang vs. keithe maybe (forget exactly who) where you said letang was decent/ok versus the flyers, and i almost shook the computer screen screaming "THIS is revisionist history."

i just fervently disagree with the idea that letang was good/average in these playoffs. i really think you might be the only pens fan to think that.

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09-08-2012, 12:53 PM
  #177
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Letang was bad. He wasn't Martin or Orpik bad, but he was bad. If they were Fs he was a D just because he at least brought 5 points of offense.

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09-08-2012, 01:57 PM
  #178
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I don't see how everyone can sit here & say every defensemen was bad but then turn around & say it had nothing to do with coaching. We have one of the better defensive corps in the league yet our defense is horrible but as long Bylsma puts on that smile people make up excuses. The system has to change or the same thing will happen with Morrow & Despres in the line up.

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09-08-2012, 02:08 PM
  #179
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ogrezilla View Post
Letang was bad. He wasn't Martin or Orpik bad, but he was bad. If they were Fs he was a D just because he at least brought 5 points of offense.
Agreed.

Letang does get a free ride here way too often...we have to keep him around whenever it comes time to do that, but what is keeping Letang from joining that truly elite group of defenders is his lack of consistency. We saw that in spades this past season where he looked like a potential Norris winner for the first half of the season and then the ensuing roller coaster ride that ended up derailing in the playoffs. He shouldn't be grouped in with Martin or Orpik in terms of complete uselessness in that series, but he wasn't that much better.

Letang also isn't a real PP QB. He's serviceable, but he's certainly no Gonchar. I sincerely hope Morrow or Pouliot are able to really develop into a more pure PP QB and I have a good amount of faith that Pouliot can. Morrow seems best as a 2nd defender on a PP unit, much like Letang but with a different set of strengths and weaknesses.

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09-08-2012, 02:24 PM
  #180
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Originally Posted by Ogrezilla View Post
he's not a perfect PP QB, but he gets the job done better than most guys do for most other teams. Seriously, tied for 4th for powerplay points per game last year. I'm not saying he's the 4th best powerplay QB or anything, but you don't get that production without being pretty darn good.
You don't have to QB a PP to play on it as a defensemen. Think Chara, triggermen have their role too. Letang is also amazing at zone entries making him even more valuable on the PP, but I'd have to agree QB he is not.

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09-08-2012, 02:35 PM
  #181
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Fleury did outplay bryz, if the retarded coaches could figure out how to stop philthy from scoring the same ****ing pp-goal all over again, we would have taken the series in 5 games.
Please stop Fleury was nowhere near outplaying anybody. I have a hard time remembering worse playoffs performance from a goalie than Fleury this year. Fleury on his game is one of the best goaltenders in the league, but when he isnt , he is really ****ing awful!

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09-08-2012, 02:44 PM
  #182
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Originally Posted by eXile59 View Post
I don't see how everyone can sit here & say every defensemen was bad but then turn around & say it had nothing to do with coaching. We have one of the better defensive corps in the league yet our defense is horrible but as long Bylsma puts on that smile people make up excuses. The system has to change or the same thing will happen with Morrow & Despres in the line up.
I'll 2nd that and take it a step further. The Pens want to bring back that loosy goosy garbage and I think it goes above Disco.

I'm actually hoping the Pens come out with something new in Penguins hockey. Like a torpedo system.

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09-08-2012, 02:56 PM
  #183
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Originally Posted by Saku11 View Post
Please stop Fleury was nowhere near outplaying anybody. I have a hard time remembering worse playoffs performance from a goalie than Fleury this year. Fleury on his game is one of the best goaltenders in the league, but when he isnt , he is really ****ing awful!
He outplayed bryz at even strength and his horrid bp stats his a direct affect of incompetent coaches!
And I never said he was good, just better then bryz.

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09-08-2012, 04:05 PM
  #184
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Originally Posted by Til the End of Time View Post
ha yeah this is basically my response to your post, Rowdy Roddy Peeper.

were not going to see eye to eye on this letang thing, so i dont want to belabor the point anymore.
That's fine if you don't want to belabor a point, but your stance right now basically consists of letting Letang go if he wants "#1 money" because you think its reasonable that a group of teenagers are going to make him redundant within two years.

If that's your plan, then I really don't know what to say other than that it seems like about the most imprudent move we could make.

Quote:
one thing i really do take exception to though, one dead horse i really want to beat, is your notion that its revisionist history to suggest letang was terrible in the playoffs. i remember reading your thread on the main boards talking about letang vs. keithe maybe (forget exactly who) where you said letang was decent/ok versus the flyers, and i almost shook the computer screen screaming "THIS is revisionist history."

i just fervently disagree with the idea that letang was good/average in these playoffs. i really think you might be the only pens fan to think that.
I don't even need to argue it, just go back and look at the +/- threads. You'd think that with some of the retrospective opinions on his play now, you'd see his name regularly cursed up and down in them. Thing is, it isn't.

There are strips rightly torn off Martin, Orpik, and Michalek, but even Crosby and Malkin took more criticism than Letang did.

Now he just gets grouped in with the "bad defense". He didn't live up to his standards, but he certainly wasn't terrible.

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Old
09-08-2012, 04:31 PM
  #185
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I'm on RRP's side of this. I can't sit here and say Letang was at fault. He wasn't at his best... but not at fault.

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09-08-2012, 04:34 PM
  #186
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Originally Posted by Bring Back Scuderi View Post
You don't have to QB a PP to play on it as a defensemen. Think Chara, triggermen have their role too. Letang is also amazing at zone entries making him even more valuable on the PP, but I'd have to agree QB he is not.
right now he absolutely is the PP QB. And he is putting up good numbers while doing it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by eXile59 View Post
I don't see how everyone can sit here & say every defensemen was bad but then turn around & say it had nothing to do with coaching. We have one of the better defensive corps in the league yet our defense is horrible but as long Bylsma puts on that smile people make up excuses. The system has to change or the same thing will happen with Morrow & Despres in the line up.
Absolutely the coaching should get a lot of blame. Its not like the problems just showed up in the playoffs either. It was happening the entire tail end of the season; it just wasn't that noticeable when we weren't playing teams as good as Philly. I really am a Bylsma fan for a lot of the things he does right, but he has a few glaring flaws topped off by his complete inability or unwillingness to adjust. I hope Shero lets him know that if the defense is struggling come mid-season and the system still hasn't be drastically altered, its a lot easier to replace a coaching staff than an NHL defense.


Last edited by Ogrezilla: 09-08-2012 at 04:40 PM.
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09-08-2012, 05:04 PM
  #187
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The only thing keeping Letang from being a Norris favorite every single year for the rest of his career is himself. His decision making and confidence are lacking, but all of the tools are there. He has no confidence in his offensive abilities and is always second-guessing himself, and he's very prone to trying to do too much defensively, getting himself caught out of position. I think he'll figure it out sooner rather than later.

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Old
09-08-2012, 11:21 PM
  #188
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There's a great Pens/Flyers game on from 2/21/2009 on NHL Network right now. Disco's 3rd game as HC.


Last edited by HuskerTornado: 09-08-2012 at 11:29 PM.
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09-09-2012, 02:39 AM
  #189
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I still have hope that Bylsma can be our Babcock (potential Bowman), I just hope he can snap out of the way he handles rookie/young forwards and can tinker with the system and make the pens system evolve as the team evolves.

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09-09-2012, 08:11 AM
  #190
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Originally Posted by Honour Over Glory View Post
I still have hope that Bylsma can be our Babcock (potential Bowman), I just hope he can snap out of the way he handles rookie/young forwards and can tinker with the system and make the pens system evolve as the team evolves.
agreed. And both of those things can potentially come down to stubbornness. I can't tell if he really doesn't notice problems or if he just believes in his ways so much that he thinks they will work themselves out.

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09-09-2012, 10:08 AM
  #191
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I'm on RRP's side of this. I can't sit here and say Letang was at fault. He wasn't at his best... but not at fault.
He didn't play horribly..but he is certainly at fault for being an undisciplined cry baby like the rest of the team and taking AWFUL penalties when the team could least afford it. Gotta say though, he's still a great player and not a guy who can be replaced

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09-09-2012, 10:14 AM
  #192
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Originally Posted by Florentino Ariza View Post
He didn't play horribly..but he is certainly at fault for being an undisciplined cry baby like the rest of the team and taking AWFUL penalties when the team could least afford it. Gotta say though, he's still a great player and not a guy who can be replaced
Yeah... he touched on that after the season. He let players get under his skin which is the life of a younger NHL player. He needs to act like a vet. I agree with you there.

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09-09-2012, 10:54 AM
  #193
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Lets see here, was the defense leaning/roaming onto one side of the ice for a reason or just a lot of isolated individual misreads. The center slot area was vacant way too often.

Most notable culprits I can remember were, Martin & Orpik skating too the help of partners who didn't need it, and gave up major ice that a whale could have slipped through. Yes, Michalek and Letang did roam too, but...not as often as M&O.

It would have been nice for Fleury to stop more but he had way too many top scoring chances against for blaming him as much as we are.

How many breakaway goals do we realistically expect him to stop. Great goaltenders have a decent defense in front of them. I don't think we can call the defense decent last year. Last year was a battle of offense where the Pens were tops last year.

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09-09-2012, 03:34 PM
  #194
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Some of the Gonchar comments in here make me think some of you have Alzheimers. You act as if the only time he'd be on the ice, is during the PP... and he's not going to accept a role like that. Gonch is going to be out there 16-18 a game, and when not on the PP it will not help us and likely hurt us against faster teams. The Gonch ship has sailed, just like the Gill ship has sailed... for crying out loud let go of the past and any idea that these two players, given the load of young D talent we have, should be anywhere near this team, given the current players under contract.

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09-09-2012, 04:58 PM
  #195
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Some of the Gonchar comments in here make me think some of you have Alzheimers. You act as if the only time he'd be on the ice, is during the PP... and he's not going to accept a role like that. Gonch is going to be out there 16-18 a game, and when not on the PP it will not help us and likely hurt us against faster teams. The Gonch ship has sailed, just like the Gill ship has sailed... for crying out loud let go of the past and any idea that these two players, given the load of young D talent we have, should be anywhere near this team, given the current players under contract.
I never thought I would say this... but in terms of post-season defensive play, I think Paul Martin was just as bad as Gonchar. And unlike Martin, Gonchar is probably one of the top PP QB's in the league for the past 10-15 years.

I do think Gonchar could work here again, but he would need to be paired with a gritty defensive-dman type of guy at all times (which we lack).

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09-09-2012, 05:22 PM
  #196
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Martin is going to get a chance to prove himself as he said in that write-up after our loss. If he continues to **** the bed, I'm all for moving him mid-season. If Ottawa is not a playoff contender, I'm all for pickin gup Sarge at the end, too.

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09-09-2012, 06:35 PM
  #197
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Martin is going to get a chance to prove himself as he said in that write-up after our loss. If he continues to **** the bed, I'm all for moving him mid-season. If Ottawa is not a playoff contender, I'm all for pickin gup Sarge at the end, too.
Ditto. Sarge could work in a limited role.

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09-09-2012, 08:50 PM
  #198
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i just fervently disagree with the idea that letang was good/average in these playoffs. i really think you might be the only pens fan to think that.
He's definitely not the only one who thinks that.

Outside of losing his head a few times and the head flop, Letang was one of the few players who looked like he gave a damn...and one of the only ones who did give a damn who had enough skill to make a difference.

The Penguins are looking at 6.5-7.5m range (without changes to CBA) and he deserves every penny. He can't "QB" a PP as effectively because he doesn't have a booming shot. If he was able to add a decent/accurate shot he'd be that much better...although a net-front presence would go a long way in making any shot more effective from their points.

Also, how some can suggest he isn't good defensively is beyond me. It's pretty hard NOT to be good on d when you can skate as well as he can.


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09-09-2012, 09:45 PM
  #199
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I never thought I would say this... but in terms of post-season defensive play, I think Paul Martin was just as bad as Gonchar. And unlike Martin, Gonchar is probably one of the top PP QB's in the league for the past 10-15 years.

I do think Gonchar could work here again, but he would need to be paired with a gritty defensive-dman type of guy at all times (which we lack).
I don't think we should bring Martin into this; it's not relevant to whether or not Sarge still has the wheels to be competitive two-way D. He doesn't. Not denying he'd help any PP, but that's not our first need on D... strong zone play is our first need and Gonch won't help.

Martin is Martin. Either he wakes up and plays well or he's gone. I don't know which D might be up for a trade at the deadline but it would be a mistake to make a trade for a guy who will be mostly useful on the PP (as a means of replacing Martin... and yet still not filling the gap we expected Martin to fill). D zone coverage becomes more important in the playoffs, not less. So if we trade away a D because his D zone play sucks, we sure as hell better trade for someone whose coverage is good, not a PP specialist.

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09-09-2012, 09:55 PM
  #200
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Originally Posted by Rocket of Russia View Post
The Penguins are looking at 6.5-7.5m range (without changes to CBA) and he deserves every penny. He can't "QB" a PP as effectively because he doesn't have a booming shot. If he was able to add a decent/accurate shot he'd be that much better...although a net-front presence would go a long way in making any shot more effective from their points.
The part that gets me is that even in spite of not being the most efficient PP quarterback...the guy was still the 2nd most productive defenseman on a per game basis in the entire league, behind only Karlsson. I guess the booming slapshots all those other #1 defenseman have doesn't necessarily translate into better results. Maybe, just maybe, Letang's other attributes make up for it?

This is a defenseman that just turned 25 in April, and suffered a concussion that sidelined him for 20 games early in the season. But hey, I'm sure players who can produce like that grow on trees, and our pipeline should be able to make him expendable by 2014.

Right.

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