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Old
09-05-2012, 02:03 PM
  #126
Giroux tha Damaja
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wej20 View Post
I mean a pest to play against rather than an agitator. Kennedy has scored 15 more points and only 1 less goal than Talbot in 143 less games so yes he's significantly better than Talbot offensively.
Serious Q, how much do you think line mates and roles played into that? I think TK is better, but I didn't think the ppg numbers would be so different.

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09-05-2012, 03:37 PM
  #127
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Originally Posted by Giroux tha Damaja View Post
Serious Q, how much do you think line mates and roles played into that? I think TK is better, but I didn't think the ppg numbers would be so different.
Linemates for sure play a part but Talbot had chances to play with Malkin so it's not like he was short changed compared to TK. Staying healthy is an issue for both guys but Talbot had real bad stretches when he was playing either with a niggle/or still recovering from his previous injury compared to TK who had similar problems with injuries but was able to jump back in quicker.
I also think TK is just more naturally gifted offensively, he has a better shot, is a better stick handler and has better offensive IQ (though he suffers from major tunnel vision at times). Talbot shot and hands are solid but I think he generates a lot of his offence from pure force of will and going to the tough areas. Talbot definitely has the edge when it comes to clutch offence though.
Linemates and change of scenery have definitely played a big part in Talbot's numbers in Philly (plus staying healthy), I don't think he'll be a regular 20 goal guy but if he gets close to 82 games he should be putting up 15-15, who is he expected to play with next year?
A healthy TK I expect to be close to a 20-20 player.

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09-05-2012, 04:19 PM
  #128
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[QUOTE=Fictionzero;53965521]As a Pittsburgh fan, Pens have to add... But to clarify with Oil fans Bortz has upside. Not top 3 upside, but he looks to be a solid 3rd pairing dman, with possible #4 potential... Maybe something like this...

To Edm:
Lovejoy
Bortuzzo
Kennedy

To Pens:
Paarjavi
3rd

Done where do I sign? I LOVE Paarjavi's potental playing with Sid/Geno and there's a logjam of great young talent coming up in Edmonton, mainly the Forwards. And they need D and bottom 6 help. Would be a very good trade.

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09-05-2012, 04:30 PM
  #129
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Originally Posted by Sutter16 View Post
Done where do I sign? I LOVE Paarjavi's potental playing with Sid/Geno and there's a logjam of great young talent coming up in Edmonton, mainly the Forwards. And they need D and bottom 6 help. Would be a very good trade.
Actually the Oilers have more of a logjam at D in the next couple of years and their forward depth is not that great.

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09-05-2012, 06:47 PM
  #130
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This makes no sense for Edmonton. We have a very solid crop of prospect defensemen and really only need more if they are top end prospects (think Depres, not Lovejoy and Bortozzo). Especially at the expense of Pajaarvi, who, despite his need for development, is still a very, very good prospect. Pass with the proverbial, "not even close" due to not addressing Edmonton's needs. I'm sure there are other teams who could use those kind of prospects, but Edmonton isn't one of them.

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09-06-2012, 12:39 AM
  #131
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Originally Posted by Giroux tha Damaja View Post
Serious Q, how much do you think line mates and roles played into that? I think TK is better, but I didn't think the ppg numbers would be so different.
I'm not even sure if TK is better offensively than Talbot, he very well might not be, but Max had a couple of rough seasons with the Pens after his great SC playoff in 2009. otherwise he would have been resigned in Pitt.

as for who's more "clutch", sure Talbot scored some nice ones alongside Malkin in 2009 and the game 5 goal from the 2008 SCF when he sent it to the OT. but TK scored some good ones too, games 4 and 6 from the 2009 SCF.

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09-07-2012, 03:16 AM
  #132
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Originally Posted by zeus3007 View Post
This makes no sense for Edmonton. We have a very solid crop of prospect defensemen and really only need more if they are top end prospects (think Depres, not Lovejoy and Bortozzo). Especially at the expense of Pajaarvi, who, despite his need for development, is still a very, very good prospect. Pass with the proverbial, "not even close" due to not addressing Edmonton's needs. I'm sure there are other teams who could use those kind of prospects, but Edmonton isn't one of them.
A very very good prospect that the Oilers can't seem to develop. That kid needs a change of scenery really bad and not for the sake of GM's not wanting to move a player because of the potential he has and not understanding that he would do better elsewhere and they should get something for him before he takes off to europe and never comes back.

Oilers have some if's and maybe's on defense. Kennedy is a proven player, Lovejoy earned a spot in the NHL with the Pens and because of a log jam of so many NHL ready defensemen, he's expendable. Bortuzzo, why? Because the Pens can't make room for him, if he could still be sent to the AHL, he wouldn't be a part of the proposal.

People mock what they do not know.

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09-07-2012, 09:31 AM
  #133
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The OP isn't enough for MPS, but he's not nearly as valuable as some Oil fans are claiming.

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Old
09-07-2012, 08:08 PM
  #134
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Originally Posted by zeus3007 View Post
This makes no sense for Edmonton. We have a very solid crop of prospect defensemen and really only need more if they are top end prospects (think Depres, not Lovejoy and Bortozzo). Especially at the expense of Pajaarvi, who, despite his need for development, is still a very, very good prospect. Pass with the proverbial, "not even close" due to not addressing Edmonton's needs. I'm sure there are other teams who could use those kind of prospects, but Edmonton isn't one of them.
Where is this defensive depth in the Oilers system? They have Klefbom. He's the only real top end prospect comparable to Despres, Morrow, Maata, or Pouliot. Musil & Marincin are what Bortuzzo & Strait were years ago. Even if Shultz lives up to the hype, which will be hard but not impossible for his talent, that's still not a "log jam" of talent some are making it out to be and lets face MPS isn't going to net you any top D prospects.

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09-07-2012, 08:22 PM
  #135
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ragamuffin Gunner View Post
The OP isn't enough for MPS, but he's not nearly as valuable as some Oil fans are claiming.
I donno, once Hemsky ships out MPS-Gagner-Yakupov will probably be a lock and a good combo.

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09-08-2012, 10:16 AM
  #136
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Originally Posted by eXile59 View Post
Where is this defensive depth in the Oilers system? They have Klefbom. He's the only real top end prospect comparable to Despres, Morrow, Maata, or Pouliot. Musil & Marincin are what Bortuzzo & Strait were years ago. Even if Shultz lives up to the hype, which will be hard but not impossible for his talent, that's still not a "log jam" of talent some are making it out to be and lets face MPS isn't going to net you any top D prospects.
At this point Schultz and Klefbom are as good or better than the combination of Despres and Morrow. But let's simply call them a wash.

You are very much underrating Marincin and Musil. Marincin and Musil are much closer to the group of Despres, Morrow, Maata, or Pouliot than they are to Bortuzzo who I watched a lot in juniors. I will confess to not knowing much about Brian Strait

Going into his draft year Musil was being touted as a possible top 5 pick. Injuruies and the fact that he played an almost exclusively shutdown role made such a high draft slot unrealistic. Certainly the lack of offense in his game limits his upside. But he has a very good chance of being a significant NHL'er as a physical shutdown dman. Marincin has more upside, in good part becuase he is an excellent skater with very good offensive skills. In the last year he has also improved his defensive game a great deal. In particular, he has a very good stick. What is holding him back at this point is that he has yet to fill out his big frame. Both of these two anchored their team's defense in the WJHC, and both played extremely well. I honestly see no reason why one would expect someone like Maata to have much more upside than either Musil or Marincin as far as playing in the NHl is concerned.

You have also left off Taylor Fedun, a late bloomer who is not very well known but was extremely impressive in the Oilers TC last year.The kid has tremendous hockey sense,is a great skater and has a very good all round game. Add in Martin Gernat, who is one of the best offensive defensmen in the CHL, though still very raw defensively and I see no reason why Schultz, Klefbom, Marincin, Musil, Fedun and Gernat does not compare favourably with Despres, Morrow, Maata, and Pouliot.

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09-08-2012, 10:39 AM
  #137
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MPS has more value than that. Horrible for Edmonton.

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Old
09-08-2012, 10:45 AM
  #138
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Originally Posted by Honour Over Glory View Post

People mock what they do not know.
No, they do know. They see a young player, unproven sure, but with a lot of potential and they a 28 year old dman who is really a 7th or 8th at best and a 1/2 decent bottom pairing 23 year old prospect.

Every team in the NHL has a guy like Lovejoy. In fact, they have 2 or 3, thus, while he MIGHT make a team or 2, there's no reason to trade for him because guys like him are easily obtainable and readily available.

Not every team has a prospect like MPS ready to play in the NHL. Thus the price goes up.

Supply and demand.

Despres clearly can't get into the Pittsburgh lineup. The Pens haven't "Developed" him. Thus the Bruins offer Jordan Caron and Trent Whitfield for him.

Deal?

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09-08-2012, 11:36 AM
  #139
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At this point Schultz and Klefbom are as good or better than the combination of Despres and Morrow. But let's simply call them a wash.

You are very much underrating Marincin and Musil. Marincin and Musil are much closer to the group of Despres, Morrow, Maata, or Pouliot than they are to Bortuzzo who I watched a lot in juniors. I will confess to not knowing much about Brian Strait

Going into his draft year Musil was being touted as a possible top 5 pick. Injuruies and the fact that he played an almost exclusively shutdown role made such a high draft slot unrealistic. Certainly the lack of offense in his game limits his upside. But he has a very good chance of being a significant NHL'er as a physical shutdown dman. Marincin has more upside, in good part becuase he is an excellent skater with very good offensive skills. In the last year he has also improved his defensive game a great deal. In particular, he has a very good stick. What is holding him back at this point is that he has yet to fill out his big frame. Both of these two anchored their team's defense in the WJHC, and both played extremely well. I honestly see no reason why one would expect someone like Maata to have much more upside than either Musil or Marincin as far as playing in the NHl is concerned.

You have also left off Taylor Fedun, a late bloomer who is not very well known but was extremely impressive in the Oilers TC last year.The kid has tremendous hockey sense,is a great skater and has a very good all round game. Add in Martin Gernat, who is one of the best offensive defensmen in the CHL, though still very raw defensively and I see no reason why Schultz, Klefbom, Marincin, Musil, Fedun and Gernat does not compare favourably with Despres, Morrow, Maata, and Pouliot.
I stopped reading right there. It's so far off it would have been too hard to respect your opinion from that point on.

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09-08-2012, 07:34 PM
  #140
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Originally Posted by eXile59 View Post
I stopped reading right there. It's so far off it would have been too hard to respect your opinion from that point on.
Pretty solid case you make for yourself there.

For the record, I live in a town that is connected to Kitchener so I know Bortuzzo very well from his three years with the Rangers, but I am happy to admit that I have not followed him closely in the AHL. I have also seen a fair bit of Maata as he plays just down the road and my CI package includes most OHL games. He was also a guy who many Oiler fans were interested in as a possible second first rounder if the Oilers did try and make a move. I wonder if you can say the same about Marincin and Musil. In fact, have you ever seen Musil or Marincin play?

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09-08-2012, 08:35 PM
  #141
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Originally Posted by Fourier View Post
Pretty solid case you make for yourself there.

For the record, I live in a town that is connected to Kitchener so I know Bortuzzo very well from his three years with the Rangers, but I am happy to admit that I have not followed him closely in the AHL. I have also seen a fair bit of Maata as he plays just down the road and my CI package includes most OHL games. He was also a guy who many Oiler fans were interested in as a possible second first rounder if the Oilers did try and make a move. I wonder if you can say the same about Marincin and Musil. In fact, have you ever seen Musil or Marincin play?
I'm curious as to why you feel Marincin is close to Despres, especially in terms of potential and where they're both at in their development at this point. I'm not knocking Marincin, by the way, I'd just put him more with someone like Brian Dumoulin, if we're comparing Pens prospects. Not that that's a bad thing, Dumoulin is one of my favorite prospects.


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Old
09-08-2012, 09:10 PM
  #142
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Originally Posted by Zen Arcade View Post
I'm curious as to why you feel Marincin is close to Despres, especially in terms of potential and where they're both at in their development at this point. I'm not knocking Marincin, by the way, I'd just put him more with someone like Brian Dumoulin, if we're comparing Pens prospects. Not that that's a bad thing, Dumoulin is one of my favorite prospects.
Because he's a huge, 2 way dman with tremendous upside... People seriously underrate the Oilers defense prospects when in fact, they are our biggest strength and more than a couple even have top pairing upside if everything goes right with their development (and no, I'm not saying they're all going to. I'm saying that any of about 4 guys might)

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09-08-2012, 09:32 PM
  #143
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Because he's a huge, 2 way dman with tremendous upside... People seriously underrate the Oilers defense prospects when in fact, they are our biggest strength and more than a couple even have top pairing upside if everything goes right with their development (and no, I'm not saying they're all going to. I'm saying that any of about 4 guys might)
Would you trade Marincin for Despres?

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09-08-2012, 09:50 PM
  #144
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I donno, once Hemsky ships out MPS-Gagner-Yakupov will probably be a lock and a good combo.
thadd knows hockey! that could be a potential dangerous line but watch out for Zharkov!! Zharkov-Yakupov combo could also be lethal. Paajarvi hasn't filled out either and not many players his size can skate like he does. Paajarvi stays unless we see a valid proposal.

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09-08-2012, 10:50 PM
  #145
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Originally Posted by wej20 View Post
Linemates and change of scenery have definitely played a big part in Talbot's numbers in Philly (plus staying healthy), I don't think he'll be a regular 20 goal guy but if he gets close to 82 games he should be putting up 15-15, who is he expected to play with next year?
I don't know really. Moving JVR and signing Fedotenko means the bottom 6 is gonna look different. My guess would be a third line wing with couturier or a fourth center. Hell likely just play with those two players mentioned and young, fast energy guys with cement hands like Harry Zolniercyk and Eric Wellwood.

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09-08-2012, 11:42 PM
  #146
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Pretty solid case you make for yourself there.

For the record, I live in a town that is connected to Kitchener so I know Bortuzzo very well from his three years with the Rangers, but I am happy to admit that I have not followed him closely in the AHL. I have also seen a fair bit of Maata as he plays just down the road and my CI package includes most OHL games. He was also a guy who many Oiler fans were interested in as a possible second first rounder if the Oilers did try and make a move. I wonder if you can say the same about Marincin and Musil. In fact, have you ever seen Musil or Marincin play?
Musil yes, Marincin maybe once for the WJC. Hard to see them when they aren't often playing in the big games, against the best talent. I get that you watch a lot of juniors but that doesn't make you a scout. I mean you don't find it weird that in your opinion everyone of the Oilers D are underrated & the Pens D are overrated? Maybe a little subjective?

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09-09-2012, 12:49 AM
  #147
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Would you trade Marincin for Despres?
Thats a tough one. The knock on Marincin is that he has to put on some size, if he does he'll be scary. He would be Despres, but with a whole lot of offensive potential. With the Oilers having Musil I would have to pass. Musil and Despres play a similar game and both have the size, although Musil could have the edge on offensive ability. I would say it would be a toss up between the two teams having the better prospects.

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09-09-2012, 12:59 AM
  #148
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Originally Posted by eXile59 View Post
Musil yes, Marincin maybe once for the WJC. Hard to see them when they aren't often playing in the big games, against the best talent. I get that you watch a lot of juniors but that doesn't make you a scout. I mean you don't find it weird that in your opinion everyone of the Oilers D are underrated & the Pens D are overrated? Maybe a little subjective?
You would of notice Marincin at the WJC the last 2 years, just ask the American player whose head he took off 2 years ago. Marincin and Gernat were a force to be reckoned with at the last time WJC, they just played on a bad team, the same could be said about Musil.

You could say that the Pens D prospects are overrated because they played on stacked teams. Face it both teams have some very good D prospects and only time will tell which one will be better.

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09-09-2012, 02:02 AM
  #149
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Originally Posted by eXile59 View Post
Musil yes, Marincin maybe once for the WJC. Hard to see them when they aren't often playing in the big games, against the best talent. I get that you watch a lot of juniors but that doesn't make you a scout. I mean you don't find it weird that in your opinion everyone of the Oilers D are underrated & the Pens D are overrated? Maybe a little subjective?
Kind of like you downplaying Edmonton's D prospect depth? Maybe that'd a little subjective and based more off your personal opinion? You're not a scout and have seen Marincin maybe once and yet you have his potential pegged do you?

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09-09-2012, 04:00 AM
  #150
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the thing that people are missing is that the Oilers could have drafted Dalton Thrower, Matt Finn, Ludvig Bystrom, Ville Pokka with their #32 pick in the 2nd round of this years draft...d-men that are probably similar to what is being offered to the Oilers in this proposal, but they passed to draft some forward size instead, as they did in the 3rd and 4th rounds as well. what the Oilers DON'T need is more #3 to #6 d-men....they already have them on the roster and several more on the way in the system...what the Oilers need/want is top 2 d-men so for me i just can't see the Oil doing this trade.

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