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J.Thornton vs J.Spezza 2012-2013

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Old
08-30-2012, 09:43 PM
  #26
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Originally Posted by Endersoldier View Post
To be more precise, it's only been one year that Spezza has outscored Thornton over a full season.
To be more precise, ppg is more effective then total points to determine offensive ability...in which case spezza has beaten thornton the last 2 years, and 3 times total. It's not outrageous to assume that trend will continue.

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08-30-2012, 09:47 PM
  #27
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Originally Posted by jbeck5 View Post
To be more precise, ppg is more effective then total points to determine offensive ability...in which case spezza has beaten thornton the last 2 years, and 3 times total. It's not outrageous to assume that trend will continue.
To be more precise, when deciding who I would rather have for the 2012-13 season, PPG doesn't matter if he's not playing, so I'm gonna take the guy who's all but assured to play a full season over the guy who just played his first full season in three years.

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08-30-2012, 09:48 PM
  #28
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Originally Posted by jbeck5 View Post
To be more precise, ppg is more effective then total points to determine offensive ability...in which case spezza has beaten thornton the last 2 years, and 3 times total. It's not outrageous to assume that trend will continue.
Not outrageous, but it is outrageous to suggest Thornton isn't close to Spezza's level. That's what really gets me out of all of this.

Also, when there's almost a 20 game gap between two players, and PPG is as close as it is, then I don't see the point in comparing. Too many variables could have led Spezza to equalling out, surpassing or even falling short in 2010-11. Also, Spezza's injury history is also a factor.

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08-31-2012, 12:05 AM
  #29
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Spezza does more with less, and is better offensively.

Personally the "he's better defensively" argument is pointless. His job on the team is to facilitate the scoring of goals. I want the best offensive catalyst to be my number 1 centre. Spezza's D is more than good enough to do the job and that's all that matters.

By the descriptions given here by Thornton supporters he'd be an awesome second line guy!

And I actually really like Thornton, and it is very close.... Spezza is a little better and has a few years on Big Joe

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08-31-2012, 12:11 AM
  #30
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Originally Posted by AbsolonMoreau View Post
Spezza in terms of PPG was 8.5% better. Thornton has defense that is significantly better than that of Spezza, your statement about what you want in a #1 center doesn't really mean anything considering you are just trying to cherrypick what you like for your argument.
From Fear The Fin:



Spezza's Corsi Rel was .281. Spezza also started 10% more starts in the offensive zone than Thornton.

The age argument for Thornton doesn't really matter as his style does not depend on his physical skill as much as it does his hockey IQ.

Spezza played with Alfie and Michalek. Those two combined for 119 points. Thornton played with Marleau and Pavelski, those two combined for 125 points. Your linemates argument didn't really work for last year.
Spezza played with Michalek and Greening, who combined for 97 points. Alfie rarely saw time on the top line.

I'll take Spezza going into to next year.

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08-31-2012, 02:20 AM
  #31
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Originally Posted by jbeck5 View Post
See, i think it's a bit more then 8.5% for 2 reasons...1)it's 9.4(i used a calculator this time) and 2) thornton having wingers with almost 30 points more combined is a pretty big deal.

But i do agree with you, that karlsson was an upgrade over boyle. However kuba just leached off karlsson offensively...he didn't really create anything. So boyle's partner(i forget if vlasic or burns played more...im tired) but either would be an upgrade over kuba in overall play.

As a 5 man crew, i think thornton has a slight better 4 supporting cast then spezza...which ups that 9.4% to...maybe 14% in my opinion.



I like how you used the last TWO seasons. The only period EVER Spezza has better stats offensively. If you used just last year they are about equal as they were both around a PPG. If you used the last 3 years then Thornton is better. But no...you chose the last two years lol. What does 2 yrs ago have to do with now? Just look at last year. They were even offensively.

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08-31-2012, 04:01 AM
  #32
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08-31-2012, 06:36 AM
  #33
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Originally Posted by Ice-Tray View Post
Spezza does more with less, and is better offensively.

Personally the "he's better defensively" argument is pointless. His job on the team is to facilitate the scoring of goals. I want the best offensive catalyst to be my number 1 centre. Spezza's D is more than good enough to do the job and that's all that matters.

By the descriptions given here by Thornton supporters he'd be an awesome second line guy!

And I actually really like Thornton, and it is very close.... Spezza is a little better and has a few years on Big Joe
Difference between being good enough defensively to not worry about him, and being in thorntons level of defensive play is: 1 is out on the ice to score against 3rd and 4th lines. While the other is out there to score and at the same time stop goals from happening against your team against 1st and 2nd lines.

Considering the difference between them last season was only 7 points, i would take the one who is great defensively 10 times out of 10.

If the difference was like malkin to datsyuk, the i will take the pure offensive player 10 times out of 10.

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08-31-2012, 03:12 PM
  #34
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Originally Posted by Barrie22 View Post
Difference between being good enough defensively to not worry about him, and being in thorntons level of defensive play is: 1 is out on the ice to score against 3rd and 4th lines. While the other is out there to score and at the same time stop goals from happening against your team against 1st and 2nd lines.

Considering the difference between them last season was only 7 points, i would take the one who is great defensively 10 times out of 10.

If the difference was like malkin to datsyuk, the i will take the pure offensive player 10 times out of 10.


I know that's kind of the stereotypical opinion of Spezza, but I think you'll be surprised to find that you're actually completely wrong here. He does not play against other teams' bottom lines unless the other team is trying to line match with their top checkers.

Your description of Thornton's shifts are exactly how Spezza played this year as well. McLean coaches head to head hockey using Spezza and Turris against the opposing team's best players. He was happy to acknowledge that for double shifters like Stamkos and Crosby, that he had the Luxury of playing Spezza's line against them , and then hitting them with Turris' line. While Turris is better defensively, Spezza is pretty good, and certainly more than good enough to play against other team's top lines. It's the other teams that scramble to stop him...

Spezza is pretty good defensively, while Thornton is no Datsyuk. They are actually pretty close down the line and always have been. Thornton is older and so their careers haven't ever really matched up in a given year, but they have been very similar (like I said I really like them both). Thornton is more likely to decline offensively, given the stage of his career, than Spezza who is playing the best all around hockey of his career.

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08-31-2012, 03:19 PM
  #35
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Why are people downplaying Spezza's linemates? He got to play with 3 All-Stars.

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08-31-2012, 03:29 PM
  #36
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Originally Posted by Karlssonlee View Post
Spezza's defence is really underrated. I really wish people would actually watch him play.
Saying that Thornton's defensive play blows Spezza's isn't saying that Spezza is poor defensively. It's just underlining how ****ing good Joe is defensively.

Come on people. One guy plays in second-tier minutes in an offensive system with a PPG defenseman, and the other guy plays insanely hard shutdown minutes and yet only scored about 8 points less (pro-rating). Thornton's 10-11 wasn't anything to write home about, but his 11-12 was the best year he's ever played.

Not to mention that Thornton was PPG in the playoffs this season despite his two linemates doing jack squat offensively (literally).

The only reason to take Spezza is age. For one season, Thornton is better.

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08-31-2012, 04:04 PM
  #37
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Originally Posted by Ice-Tray View Post
I know that's kind of the stereotypical opinion of Spezza, but I think you'll be surprised to find that you're actually completely wrong here. He does not play against other teams' bottom lines unless the other team is trying to line match with their top checkers.

Your description of Thornton's shifts are exactly how Spezza played this year as well. McLean coaches head to head hockey using Spezza and Turris against the opposing team's best players. He was happy to acknowledge that for double shifters like Stamkos and Crosby, that he had the Luxury of playing Spezza's line against them , and then hitting them with Turris' line. While Turris is better defensively, Spezza is pretty good, and certainly more than good enough to play against other team's top lines. It's the other teams that scramble to stop him...

Spezza is pretty good defensively, while Thornton is no Datsyuk. They are actually pretty close down the line and always have been. Thornton is older and so their careers haven't ever really matched up in a given year, but they have been very similar (like I said I really like them both). Thornton is more likely to decline offensively, given the stage of his career, than Spezza who is playing the best all around hockey of his career.
Except the advanced stats that prove you are wrong, thornto faced the tougher competition, started 55% of his shifts in the defensive zone to spezza who started 55% of his shifts in the offensive zone. Thornton is better at face offs, take aways.

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08-31-2012, 04:06 PM
  #38
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Definitely Spezza

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08-31-2012, 04:18 PM
  #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AbsolonMoreau View Post
He may be better offensively by 8.5%, but that doesn't change the fact that he is blown out of the water by Thornton's defense.
I think its funny how every time a player is compared to another, someone has to pull out the "defensive game" card. It's like pulling out a joker in poker and claiming to win.

Unless the gap is very wide, ill take the offensive guy over the defensive guy any day. Bottom 6 players are there to be defensive... Top 6 are there to score goals.

I'd take Spezza because I think he's going to put up better numbers.
If you take Thornton, that's fine... He's quite good and could very well put up better numbers than Spezza, but don't act like his defensive game is the reason. It's just an excuse people on HF use to try and prove a point.

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08-31-2012, 04:45 PM
  #40
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08-31-2012, 04:51 PM
  #41
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Originally Posted by Barrie22 View Post
Except the advanced stats that prove you are wrong, thornto faced the tougher competition, started 55% of his shifts in the defensive zone to spezza who started 55% of his shifts in the offensive zone. Thornton is better at face offs, take aways.
I don't need your advanced stats, I watch all of the Sens games. Because I watch the games I know that Turris is better defensively and not nearly as good offensively as Spezza so he takes defensive zone starts especially when the other teams top offensive players are on. If he's just come off, Spezza goes in.

Conversely, since Spezza is one of the premier offensive centres in the league he starts almost all offensive zone faceoffs, unless he needs rest, no matter who he faces. During free flow of the game Spezza plays against other team's top lines. McLean doesn't match lines with other teams, he goes head to head and lets other teams worry about that. He does this because our best defensive centres are our top two, and he clearly has confidence in them, as he has mentioned numerous times.

The fact that Thornton takes more defensive zone faceoffs than offensive zone ones shows that either your coaching staff prefers defence first hockey, or he is valued more in the defensive zone than the offensive zone. We have a centreman who is better defensively than Spezza, perhaps SJ doesn't have one better than Thornton, which in the end is a shame since he'd be better used trying to put the puck in the net.

I love how you guys like to knock offensive catalysts for starting more faceoffs in the offensive zone. Last I checked you need to score goals to win games, and putting your best offensive players on the offensive zone faceoffs looks like jack Adams quality coaching. This is the same crap people like to spout about Karlsson and his offensive starts.

Spezza is the better player at this point. Good defence has a roll too, second line and third line centres can excel in this area, but for my number one centre, give me the better offensive player everyday. You want an abundance of defence out of the top line, give me Marion Hossa or Daniel Alfredsson. For me, as long as my top line going head to head is scoring rather than getting scored on, we come out ahead. Heck in a decent fantasy world Thornton could play the defensive centreman role on our team...

For those of you stat lookers who are confused, Spezza and Alfie don't play together. Spezza plays with Michalek and Greening (rookie) or other random bottom sixers.

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08-31-2012, 04:54 PM
  #42
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Thornton has consistently played in a much, much tougher division. It's getting close as Thornton gets older, but their offense now being very similar doesn't do enough to compensate for Thornton's incredible defensive play. I'd take both players on my team, please and thank you.

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08-31-2012, 05:13 PM
  #43
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Speza never really had to be worried about playing too much defence anyhow, during his pizza days we had Fisher and Kelly behind him and now we've got Turris, Smith, O'brien, and in a couple of years Zibanejad too.

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08-31-2012, 05:28 PM
  #44
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It seems really close id say one of the closer debates. There are good arguments for both players. Would it be fair to say both are very consistent players according to there stats. Spezza ran into injuries a couple seasons back but he also has a few years on Thornton but Thornton has been very consistent when it comes to games played. Id say that's still close but one has to be better.

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08-31-2012, 05:36 PM
  #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ice-Tray View Post
I don't need your advanced stats, I watch all of the Sens games. Because I watch the games I know that Turris is better defensively and not nearly as good offensively as Spezza so he takes defensive zone starts especially when the other teams top offensive players are on. If he's just come off, Spezza goes in.

Conversely, since Spezza is one of the premier offensive centres in the league he starts almost all offensive zone faceoffs, unless he needs rest, no matter who he faces. During free flow of the game Spezza plays against other team's top lines. McLean doesn't match lines with other teams, he goes head to head and lets other teams worry about that. He does this because our best defensive centres are our top two, and he clearly has confidence in them, as he has mentioned numerous times.

The fact that Thornton takes more defensive zone faceoffs than offensive zone ones shows that either your coaching staff prefers defence first hockey, or he is valued more in the defensive zone than the offensive zone. We have a centreman who is better defensively than Spezza, perhaps SJ doesn't have one better than Thornton, which in the end is a shame since he'd be better used trying to put the puck in the net.

I love how you guys like to knock offensive catalysts for starting more faceoffs in the offensive zone. Last I checked you need to score goals to win games, and putting your best offensive players on the offensive zone faceoffs looks like jack Adams quality coaching. This is the same crap people like to spout about Karlsson and his offensive starts.

Spezza is the better player at this point. Good defence has a roll too, second line and third line centres can excel in this area, but for my number one centre, give me the better offensive player everyday. You want an abundance of defence out of the top line, give me Marion Hossa or Daniel Alfredsson. For me, as long as my top line going head to head is scoring rather than getting scored on, we come out ahead. Heck in a decent fantasy world Thornton could play the defensive centreman role on our team...

For those of you stat lookers who are confused, Spezza and Alfie don't play together. Spezza plays with Michalek and Greening (rookie) or other random bottom sixers.
Wow talk about discrediting a guys offensive game. Thornton and spezza at worst are the same offensively. Give me the guy who brings both offense and top end defense.

Thornton not only scores the same as spezza, he also stops more then he gives up.

People here seem to get the impression that thornton has fallen off the face of the earth offensively, while spezza is the next coming of gretzky.

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08-31-2012, 05:45 PM
  #46
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Originally Posted by Ice-Tray View Post
I don't need your advanced stats, I watch all of the Sens games. Because I watch the games I know that Turris is better defensively and not nearly as good offensively as Spezza so he takes defensive zone starts especially when the other teams top offensive players are on. If he's just come off, Spezza goes in.

Conversely, since Spezza is one of the premier offensive centres in the league he starts almost all offensive zone faceoffs, unless he needs rest, no matter who he faces. During free flow of the game Spezza plays against other team's top lines. McLean doesn't match lines with other teams, he goes head to head and lets other teams worry about that. He does this because our best defensive centres are our top two, and he clearly has confidence in them, as he has mentioned numerous times.

The fact that Thornton takes more defensive zone faceoffs than offensive zone ones shows that either your coaching staff prefers defence first hockey, or he is valued more in the defensive zone than the offensive zone. We have a centreman who is better defensively than Spezza, perhaps SJ doesn't have one better than Thornton, which in the end is a shame since he'd be better used trying to put the puck in the net.

I love how you guys like to knock offensive catalysts for starting more faceoffs in the offensive zone. Last I checked you need to score goals to win games, and putting your best offensive players on the offensive zone faceoffs looks like jack Adams quality coaching. This is the same crap people like to spout about Karlsson and his offensive starts.

Spezza is the better player at this point. Good defence has a roll too, second line and third line centres can excel in this area, but for my number one centre, give me the better offensive player everyday. You want an abundance of defence out of the top line, give me Marion Hossa or Daniel Alfredsson. For me, as long as my top line going head to head is scoring rather than getting scored on, we come out ahead. Heck in a decent fantasy world Thornton could play the defensive centreman role on our team...

For those of you stat lookers who are confused, Spezza and Alfie don't play together. Spezza plays with Michalek and Greening (rookie) or other random bottom sixers.
It's really funny to see Eastern fans smirk at Western fans for playing power v power...

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08-31-2012, 05:50 PM
  #47
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Originally Posted by Barrie22 View Post
Wow talk about discrediting a guys offensive game. Thornton and spezza at worst are the same offensively. Give me the guy who brings both offense and top end defense.

Thornton not only scores the same as spezza, he also stops more then he gives up.

People here seem to get the impression that thornton has fallen off the face of the earth offensively, while spezza is the next coming of gretzky.
If that's the impression I gave, my apologies, however I think you might be reading too deeply into it. Spezza also stops more than he lets in, and actually scores more than Thornton. Not by a lot, but he does, and the gap will probably get a little wider as the next couple of years pass.

I'm a huge Thornton fan, and as I've said the gap between the players is very small. The reason I prefer Spezza is that he is younger and starting to play his best hockey. This does not mean that I think Joe is going to tumble off a cliff... I just think Spezza will be a little better going forward.... Love both players...

The tone of my arguments is more a reflection of having to counter the uneducated opinions put forward about Spezza rather than betraying my own feelings towards Thornton...


Last edited by Ice-Tray: 08-31-2012 at 05:55 PM.
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08-31-2012, 05:53 PM
  #48
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It's really funny to see Eastern fans smirk at Western fans for playing power v power...
Not sure who's smirking, I'm wondering if your reading comprehension is an issue here. Perhaps it's you doing the smirking?

Clearly what I said is that the Senators play power on power.... Not sure if you missed that, but since your post made little sense I'm going to go ahead and assume that you did.

No one is talking about east vs west here, though clearly we know where you stand...

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08-31-2012, 05:57 PM
  #49
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Originally Posted by Ice-Tray View Post
Not sure who's smirking, I'm wondering if your reading comprehension is an issue here. Perhaps it's you doing the smirking?
Just reading between the lines here

Quote:
I love how you guys like to knock offensive catalysts for starting more faceoffs in the offensive zone. Last I checked you need to score goals to win games, and putting your best offensive players on the offensive zone faceoffs looks like jack Adams quality coaching.
Quote:
Clearly what I said is that the Senators play power on power
Not clear enough apparently...
Quote:
McLean doesn't match lines with other teams
When your top line can be trusted to get the puck out of their own zone and still score, you'll use them in the defensive zone because they don't need the extra help to put up points.


Last edited by Arrch: 08-31-2012 at 06:05 PM.
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08-31-2012, 06:47 PM
  #50
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Just reading between the lines here





Not clear enough apparently...


When your top line can be trusted to get the puck out of their own zone and still score, you'll use them in the defensive zone because they don't need the extra help to put up points.
I was being snarky for sure, not being smug or smirking. Like I said, not nearly clear enough. We play power on power with Spezza and Turris dealing with the oppositions top players. Should have said power on power, good point. McLean doesn't seem to avoid match ups much on the fly, rather forces teams to deal with our top lines. The only time you really notice it is when there is a faceoff.

Yes, this is true, but when you're an offensive team that spend more time with the puck in the offensive zone, and you spread ice time more evenly over 4 lines, you try and maximize where your best offensive and defensive players start. McLean definitely trusts our top line.

Our top two lines take all of the important faceoffs in both zones. Turris gets slightly more in the d zone, while Spezza gets slightly more in the o zone.


Last edited by Ice-Tray: 08-31-2012 at 06:56 PM. Reason: adding...
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