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Eric Staal vs. Jonathan Toews

View Poll Results: Who's better?
Toews 61 65.59%
Staal 26 27.96%
Even 6 6.45%
Voters: 93. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
09-02-2012, 01:21 PM
  #26
Ceremony
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Plus/minus does not represent a player's defensive ability.

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09-02-2012, 01:22 PM
  #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Hansen View Post
Staal may not play with players the caliber of Kane, Hossa, or Sharp, but he certainly does not play with "scrubs." People aren't quite that ignorant of Carolina's roster, are they?

Bring up the point that the East is a less defensive conference and easier to score in, and the the linemates thing becomes more or less moot. Staal had one monster season and that was a long time ago. Since then, he's done little to show he has anything more than a small edge on Toews offensively, and maybe no edge at all.
Carolina is not a bunch of scrubs, but I can't think of any player as good or better than Staal that has worse regular linemates.

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09-02-2012, 01:27 PM
  #28
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Originally Posted by PeterForsberg View Post
It does matter. It's your overall game.
No, it tells you whether a player was on the ice for more even strength goals for or against. It's at best maybe 10% indicative of someones overall game.

+241 right here

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09-02-2012, 01:34 PM
  #29
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Originally Posted by Ceremony View Post
Plus/minus does not represent a player's defensive ability.
It represents your overall game, and when adjusted to ice time and to the team you play on, it's relevant.

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09-02-2012, 01:39 PM
  #30
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Originally Posted by MandyAlwaysKnows View Post
It represents your overall game, and when adjusted to ice time and to the team you play on, it's relevant.
I like you.

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Old
09-02-2012, 01:40 PM
  #31
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I go with the player with 8 consecutive 70+ point seasons, and who has missed 13 games since the lockout.


Quote:
Originally Posted by PeterForsberg View Post
Skinner & Rutto are scrubs? Too bad his defense is.. Being at an amazing -33, with Cam Ward..
Staal doesn't play with Skinner. They were a gong show on the defensive end.

He plays with Tlusty and Ruutu, both of whom are no where near the quality of Kane, Sharp and Hossa.

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09-02-2012, 01:43 PM
  #32
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Toews was a minus when the Blackhawks won the cup.

Guess he was weak defensively in that run, unlike the even Staal, who was neutral.

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09-02-2012, 01:46 PM
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MandyAlwaysKnows View Post
It represents your overall game, and when adjusted to ice time and to the team you play on, it's relevant.
No it doesn't.

Staal got most of that plus/minus in the first 30 games of the season, before Maurice was fired and 10 games after. He was a -17 when Paul was canned.

In the next month, Staal sank to a minus 28, before suddenly climbing out of his rut and finishing the season a -20. Still terrible, but better than before.

The metric does not take into account Staal's horrendous start, or his red hot finish.

Any metric that claims that Eric Staal is the worst defensive player on the Carolina Hurricanes is a **** metric.

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Old
09-02-2012, 01:46 PM
  #34
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Jonathan Toews

Quality of Competition = 3rd on team
Relative Corsi = 14.6
+/- On the ice per 60 min = +0.74; Team +/- Off the ice = -0.03; Difference = +0.77
Takeaways = 82; Giveaways = 25; Difference = 57



Eric Staal

Quality of Competition = 4th on team
Relative Corsi = 6.6
+/- On the ice per 60 min = -0.79; Team +/- Off the ice = -0.25; Difference = -0.54
Takeaways = 66; Giveaways = 47; Difference = 19


Toews ainec

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09-02-2012, 01:47 PM
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Plan The Parade View Post
No it doesn't.

Staal got most of that plus/minus in the first 30 games of the season, before Maurice was fired and 10 games after. He was a -17 when Paul was canned.

In the next month, Staal sank to a minus 28, before suddenly climbing out of his rut and finishing the season a -20. Still terrible, but better than before.

The metric does not take into account Staal's horrendous start, or his red hot finish.

Any metric that claims that Eric Staal is the worst defensive player on the Carolina Hurricanes is a **** metric.
So we should just discount his bad start? Why?

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09-02-2012, 01:49 PM
  #36
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Let's also not act as if Toews is always playing with two of Sharp, Kane, or Hossa - actually, he more often played with one of them while having trash like Brunette on his other wing. Sharp-Toews-Kane/Hossa was rarely used this season.

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09-02-2012, 01:50 PM
  #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MandyAlwaysKnows View Post
So we should just discount his bad start? Why?
No.

We should realize that Staal's bad plus/minus is the result of a bad start, rather than a deficiency in defensive play.

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09-02-2012, 01:51 PM
  #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MandyAlwaysKnows View Post
Jonathan Toews

Quality of Competition = 3rd on team
Relative Corsi = 14.6
+/- On the ice per 60 min = +0.74; Team +/- Off the ice = -0.03; Difference = +0.77
Takeaways = 82; Giveaways = 25; Difference = 57



Eric Staal

Quality of Competition = 4th on team
Relative Corsi = 6.6
+/- On the ice per 60 min = -0.79; Team +/- Off the ice = -0.25; Difference = -0.54
Takeaways = 66; Giveaways = 47; Difference = 19


Toews ainec
Serious question, but when Toews is on the ice, aren't two of Hossa/Kane/Sharp also on the ice with him, as well as possibly Keith-Seabrook? While Staal's team mates were significantly worse. Does this take that into account?(apart from the giveaway-takeaway thing)

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09-02-2012, 01:56 PM
  #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Plan The Parade View Post
No.

We should realize that Staal's bad plus/minus is the result of a bad start, rather than a deficiency in defensive play.
Then you're just discounting his bad start.

Maybe he's not as bad as his start suggested, but maybe he's not as good as his finish suggested.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
Serious question, but when Toews is on the ice, aren't two of Hossa/Kane/Sharp also on the ice with him, as well as possibly Keith-Seabrook? While Staal's team mates were significantly worse. Does this take that into account?(apart from the giveaway-takeaway thing)
No one of them is.

Staal has Ward while Toews has Crawford.

And I adjusted the +/- to the team. Toews >> Hawks. Staal < Canes.

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09-02-2012, 01:58 PM
  #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Hansen View Post
Let's also not act as if Toews is always playing with two of Sharp, Kane, or Hossa - actually, he more often played with one of them while having trash like Brunette on his other wing. Sharp-Toews-Kane/Hossa was rarely used this season.
Toews' most common linemates last year were Patrick Kane and Patrick Sharp.

Eric Staal's most common linemates last year were Jiri Tlusty and Tuomo Ruutu.

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09-02-2012, 01:58 PM
  #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MandyAlwaysKnows View Post
Then you're just discounting his bad start.

Maybe he's not as bad as his start suggested, but maybe he's not as good as his finish suggested.



No one of them is.

Staal has Ward while Toews has Crawford.

And I adjusted the +/- to the team. Toews >> Hawks. Staal < Canes.
Alright then. I believe Toews is better than Staal, then.

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09-02-2012, 02:01 PM
  #42
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Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
Alright then. I believe Toews is better than Staal, then.
really? most people aren't that easy to convince

Yes Toews had better linemates... but Toews is still at the top of the Hawks in those categories while Staal is at the bottom for the Canes...

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09-02-2012, 02:04 PM
  #43
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Toews has an extra gear that you don't see in a lot of players, and I haven't seen from Staal in a few years now.

I vote Toews, he's an elite faceoff man, elite defensively, elite offensively and has great leadership. Can't go wrong.

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09-02-2012, 02:05 PM
  #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MandyAlwaysKnows View Post
Then you're just discounting his bad start.

Maybe he's not as bad as his start suggested, but maybe he's not as good as his finish suggested.
No I'm not.

You looked at his bad plus/minus and concluded that it meant that Staal was a bad defensive player.

I'm offering a different reason for the plus/minus- Staal's awful start to the season.

Staal is traditionally a slow starter. But this year, he became discontent with Maurice, discontent with the constant line of subpar players he had to drag around, and discontent with the organization as a whole. Before Maurice was canned, there were whispers that Staal was going to ask for a trade (and some reports even said that he did). This is part of the reason the Hurricanes gave up several valuable assets for his brother.

That's the problem with plus/minus: it lacks context. I'll say it again: any metric that has Eric Staal as the worst defensive player on the 'Canes is a crap metric.

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09-02-2012, 02:13 PM
  #45
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Originally Posted by Plan The Parade View Post
No I'm not.

You looked at his bad plus/minus and concluded that it meant that Staal was a bad defensive player.

I'm offering a different reason for the plus/minus- Staal's awful start to the season.

Staal is traditionally a slow starter. But this year, he became discontent with Maurice, discontent with the constant line of subpar players he had to drag around, and discontent with the organization as a whole. Before Maurice was canned, there were whispers that Staal was going to ask for a trade (and some reports even said that he did). This is part of the reason the Hurricanes gave up several valuable assets for his brother.

That's the problem with plus/minus: it lacks context. I'll say it again: any metric that has Eric Staal as the worst defensive player on the 'Canes is a crap metric.
This is true. Also I heard he was really torn up over concussing his brother, and IIRC his numbers improved drastically after Marc came back.

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09-02-2012, 02:14 PM
  #46
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This is true. Also I heard he was really torn up over concussing his brother, and IIRC his numbers improved drastically after Marc came back.
I remember thinking this was BS, and telling people it was BS, and getting angry when people didn't believe me.

Then Marc comes back, Eric suddenly improves overnight, and Jim Rutherford comes out and confirms the guilt on Sirius XR Home Ice.

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09-02-2012, 02:17 PM
  #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Plan The Parade View Post
Toews' most common linemates last year were Patrick Kane and Patrick Sharp.

Eric Staal's most common linemates last year were Jiri Tlusty and Tuomo Ruutu.
And for most of the stint that Muller had the team was actually clicking Staal's linemates were even worse then that: Jiti Tlusty and Chad LaRose.

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09-02-2012, 02:18 PM
  #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Plan The Parade View Post
I remember thinking this was BS, and telling people it was BS, and getting angry when people didn't believe me.

Then Marc comes back, Eric suddenly improves overnight, and Jim Rutherford comes out and confirms the guilt on Sirius XR Home Ice.
It certainly seems plausible, guilt can really weigh a person down. Especially when the person that's concussed is a future team-mate.

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09-02-2012, 02:21 PM
  #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Plan The Parade View Post
No I'm not.

You looked at his bad plus/minus and concluded that it meant that Staal was a bad defensive player.

I'm offering a different reason for the plus/minus- Staal's awful start to the season.

Staal is traditionally a slow starter. But this year, he became discontent with Maurice, discontent with the constant line of subpar players he had to drag around, and discontent with the organization as a whole. Before Maurice was canned, there were whispers that Staal was going to ask for a trade (and some reports even said that he did). This is part of the reason the Hurricanes gave up several valuable assets for his brother.

That's the problem with plus/minus: it lacks context. I'll say it again: any metric that has Eric Staal as the worst defensive player on the 'Canes is a crap metric.
If he always starts slow, you can't discount it. it has to be included in his season. It has to be considered when comparing him to Toews.

Also, I posted numbers for 2011-12 season. If we did the same for other seasons, it would be the same. Staal is consistently negative and consistently worse than his own team.

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Old
09-02-2012, 02:22 PM
  #50
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