He didn't get 20 points because he played about 40 games in Wisconsin. But again ou can't judge a defenseman solely on points. Why us that so hard to understand around here?
You've been around long enough to grasp completely why it is so hard to understand around here. Anyone with a basic concept of mathematics can compare single and double digit numbers. But it takes years of watching hockey players develop (or fail to develop) plus a tremendous hockey IQ to truly understand the build of a player and what he brings to the table. Any schmuck with a computer and internet access can sign up for a hockey message board, parrot popular opinions, and make blanket statements based on 5 minutes of researching stats on NHL.com. And it's why you'll never ONCE see a Leafs fan mention McDonagh's acceleration, stick placement 1 v 1 against a forward, ability to control the puck skating through the neutral zone, make the smart decisions with the puck in his own zone, etc. when discussing why they believe he is overrated/not worth more than Gardiner.
True. But this still doesn't answer the question of McDonagh being a "franchise dman"
with only a full season under his belt? I mean both players have the potential to grow and improve to be franchise players but they aren't yet, and it would too quick to make a judgement based upon one season.
Like I said Gardiner is valuable to Toronto as much as McDonagh is to the Rangers.
Okay. So it's ridiculous to call MCDonagh a "franchise defenseman" after one and a half seasons in the NHL. However, it is completely justifiable and in fact fair to claim that McDonagh, who was the best defenseman and is the most valuable commodity on a defensive group that was part of the #2 team in the NHL last season and made it to the ECF AND contains Dan Girardi, Marc Staal, and Michael Del Zotto, AND was the recipient of multiple Norris votes... is not on a different level and in fact is "as valuable" as Jake Gardiner, who was good but hardly spectacular as a #2 defenseman for one season playing for a lottery team.
Is that the point you were trying to get across to us?
I'd rather wait and see what we have with Gardiner first. He's an unreal talent. More upside on his part IMO. Look at these vids
And watch at 0:40, 2:03, and 2:38 in the second vid
You'll notice his excellent skating ability (best I've seen from a defenseman) and his vision, passing ability, poise, and his puck moving skills. He's also underrated defensively a bit. He played a lot of PK and was one of our most sound defenseman on the defensive side. At times he had a lot of brain farts but that's to be expected by a rookie. He also should probably get stronger, but all in all Gardiner is a gem and has huge upside.
McDonagh had 2 more points on a better team and played 12 more games. this is just another case of a player getting hatred for being on the Leafs
Not really. McDonagh is definitely the best player in this deal and the Rangers aren't in a rebuild. I think Gardiner could surpass McDonagh in a year or two though so that's why I don't like it from the leafs standpoint. Like I think the gap from Gardiner's offense to McDonagh's will be very large compared to McDonagh's defensive play to Gardiner's sometime in the future.
I'm not gonna be the guy who's making excuses, but I honestly can't find clear cut footage of the insane defensive plays McDonagh made this year. If you watch him play constantly, you'd know how much of a big presence he is on the ice.
Luckily, I found a couple of gifs from the ECF:
In this gif, McDonagh was on the other end of the ice. Girardi turned the puck over to Parise for a clear cut breakaway, but McDonagh reads this play perfectly and breaks it up against one of the best breakaway finishers in the league.
He did the same against Kovalchuk that game, but I can't find that gif.
This was from another game:
Kovalchuk was set off for a semi-breakaway on a line change here I believe. At least he got a shot off.
absolutely not Gardiner is a gem he was on the all rookie team for D
so was diaz, what's your point?
as for the proposal. it could be worse i guess. kadri and jake should develop well but that said, they have yet to prove anything in the NHL and who knows what their real upside is. bird in hand, bird in bush comes to mind
This. But I want to know how can one player (Mcdonagh) be more valuable and considered a "franchise dman" than the other (Gardiner) when both players pretty much are of the same age and shared identical stats playing a full season.
Gardiner is valuable to Toronto as much as Mcdonagh is to the Rangers.
the whole "defensemen play defense" thing seems to elude you...
You'll notice his excellent skating ability (best I've seen from a defenseman)
Best skating ability you've seen from a defensemen? Only on Toronto...
Originally Posted by FishManSam
I think this is my first proposal thread... Could be my second. This is a trade that would never happen, it's a pretty lateral move, but it's just to see if the value is there.
Replace lateral with lopsided.
The value isn't there. It might be from your end, but not in reality. If McDonagh was being shopped, you think Kadri+Gardiner would be the highest bid? Hell no.. Teams would offer more.
Originally Posted by Kulemon
Reason... I like McDonagh a lot
You don't like him that much, considering your weak offer. McDonagh's a physical specimen. Outstanding balance of speed and strength. IQ is through the roof. Terrific gap-control. The kid is an animal. Played more minutes than Gardiner(+3:09), on a better team, had less giveaways(+20), more takeaways(+12), more hits(+66), more blocked shots (92). The difference between Gardiner and McDonagh isn't Kadri. The value isn't there. This isn't a lateral move. It's just awful.
I like McDonagh as much as anyone but jesus, Rangers fans are going nuts in this thread. I get the love for the guy but to act as if Gardiner is some B prospect is ridiculous. We see Jake in the same light-a young dman with tremendous potential or in McDonagh's case, he's close to that already. The amount of Leaf hate on this site is out of hand.
1. Yes McD is better right now. Purely on defense, McD is superior, but I like Gardiners skating and first pass ability. Both are what? 21? Let's talk about the players in a few seasons.
2. No the difference between them is not astronomical. both are very talented coveted dmen.
3. I think the fact that McD plays on NY speaks to his talent more then it does pad his talent. NY has an amazing defense and he is one of the shiniest pieces. Gardener playing in Toronto also speaks to his talents, I think leafs fans are so high on him because they haven't seen quality young defenseman since the dark ages. No he's not as good as the leafs extremists make him out to be, but I definitely see him and Gardiner being the top pairing powerplay type future d for tor/
In summary, I'd take McD, but Gardiner is still a gem.
But what would ranger fans be saying if he had more points than Gardiner?
In my opinion, no reasonable fan of any team should be comparing players using only stats, it's silly. And anyone who has seen McDonagh play wouldn't even reach for "points" in a discussion about who the better player is, like I said, with what he brings to the table points are only a bonus. He's a lot more than that, so whether it's a Leaf fan or a Ranger fan doing it, it's dumb.