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Dean Lombardi: The Architect

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Old
09-05-2012, 11:48 PM
  #26
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I wanna know what that offer was for Doughty..

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09-06-2012, 12:05 AM
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09-06-2012, 12:42 AM
  #28
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Good god, Lombardi has aged about 500 years since 2006...

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09-06-2012, 12:44 AM
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Good god, Lombardi has aged about 500 years since 2006...
Stress can do that to you. And we all know how stressful the Kings were.

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09-06-2012, 12:45 AM
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Good god, Lombardi has aged about 500 years since 2006...
At least he's got the Cup to show for it.

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09-06-2012, 01:47 AM
  #31
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Credit is due to Taylor for the players he brought in, but I do agree it's hard to assess how those players would have turned out with the staff Taylor would have/had provided for the players.

A goalie in the system back in 2006 said that the prospect camp that year was the first time that actual instruction was given to the goalies.

Taylor brought in good players, but he lacked direction and personnel to take the team to the next level.

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09-06-2012, 09:51 AM
  #32
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One thing I would add to this is Lombardi is a straight shooter with his players. He doesn't sugar coat things, he is straightforward and tells them like it is. When he was meeting each player at the rally, you could see the sincerity and closeness he has with the players on this team. I'm a firm believer in if you want to get the most out of a person, tell him exactly what your expectations are. None of this "do your best" stuff, you give them a goal to reach.

We've heard about the culture and "right player" stuff ad-nauseum, but his ability to see past talent to see what makes a player tick is really impressive. I personally believe that the tightness of that room had a lot more to do with their domination this year than talent level. Those guys went to war for each other each and every game. There were off games by guys here and there, but I can't remember a single time where a player let up or wasn't tenacious on a play.
Great points. That said, I think it also shows the value of having the right voice for your philosophy. Really, all we changed between when Terry Murray was fired and winning the Stanley Cup was hire Sutter, recall Nolan and King and swap out JMFj for Carter. Two big moves yes (coaching change and the JMFJ/Carter swap) but those few moves took us from a team in danger of missing the playoffs to one of the most dominating runs through the playoffs in Stanley Cup history.

No wonder so many teams on the bubble are willing to make big moves at the trade deadline.

Having the right voice for what DL was trying to preach ws the big thing I think. You are right Fishhead that DL had the right approach, but it wasn't until he found the right guy to preach that philosophy (Sutter) that things began to turn around, and even that wasn't right away. But Sutter really took DL's philosophy and made it imprint onto those players minds and got them all buying into it.

It likely also explains Calgary's desent after their 2004 Cup run. Calgary had a really solid 2005-2006 season following the lockout but got upset in the playoffs, Sutter then went upstairs and the Flames really started a slow drop off from there, with some players (Phaneuf) drifting away from the style that got them so much success in 2004. Yes, Sutter's trading style only made things worse, but you could see the drift well before Sutter got fired as GM. He should never have left the bench.

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09-09-2012, 10:23 PM
  #33
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I don't give Taylor much credit for drafting the three guys who fell...that was just luck. Plus the draft was done by Al Murray. Murray gets credit for finding Cammelleri and Visnovsky though. (Quick too, but only half point there) Then he makes up for it by blowing the other two picks in the 2003 draft.

Taylor gets credit for luring good UFAs here like Conroy and Demitra. He also gets credit for good value on every major deal like the Blake deal. But he gets the blame for the team having no identity, no goaltending and no defense in the farm system. Also, Andy Murray was a bad hire too...he doesn't get blame for trying him but he should have fired him after a couple years after so many players got worn down and injured during his tenure.

Basically Al Murray gets a D grade and Taylor a F. You notice how since then, neither has gotten their job back on another team?

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09-09-2012, 10:39 PM
  #34
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Al Murray is actually the Director of Scouting with the Tampa Bay Lightning.
http://lightning.nhl.com/club/page.htm?id=50495

Although Taylor is no longer a GM, he still holds an important position with the Blues as their Vice President of Hockey Ops, http://blues.nhl.com/club/page.htm?id=63247

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Old
09-10-2012, 10:02 AM
  #35
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No offense Ziggy, but I don't agree much with the premise Taylor left the Kings with Quick, Kopitar and Brown (Brown I do somewhat). There's simply no guarantee that those players would have turned out the way they did under the Taylor regime, especially Quick. I'm not saying they wouldn't, but we KNOW they turned out under the way DL and Co. handled them. I personally don't know if I believe Quick would be this dominate without Ranford to help guide him, and DL brought in Ranford. Let's not forget what our goaltending history was like under Taylor. The lone legitimate goalie he ever developed, Huet, was traded away and had his best success elsewhere. The rest are mixtures of Roman Cechmanek, Jason Labarbera, Steve Passmore and Stephane Fiset with a nice run of Felix Potvin inbetween.

I'm not trying to bash DT here, but all he did with those three players is draft them. Only one, Brown, played under Taylor's squad and it could be argued he was rushed to the show as well. There's not enough credit given to development around these boards, but that is just as big of an issue as drafting is in reality. Development under DT was pretty weak (some of that wasn't his fault I know, but it was still pretty weak). Under DL, it is much, much better.
The DT/DL comparisons have been beaten to death already. Bottom line is AEG did not want to compete for the Cup until there was a cap in place. DT was a casualty of AEG's unwillingness to financially support the team. By TL's admission, the last 3 years before the lockout, he said the Kings weren't a priority.

So yes, there were 3 players left from the DT regime, but how many of DT's picks were traded to get the pieces that are on the current SC squad? Give him a little credit.

I'll admit that DL's scouting staff is far superior than DT's ever was. The man knows how to draft.

You can count me in as a Sutter supporter when it happened. A lot of people weren't. Same goes for the Carter trade.

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09-10-2012, 10:07 AM
  #36
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I don't give Taylor much credit for drafting the three guys who fell...that was just luck. Plus the draft was done by Al Murray. Murray gets credit for finding Cammelleri and Visnovsky though. (Quick too, but only half point there) Then he makes up for it by blowing the other two picks in the 2003 draft.

Taylor gets credit for luring good UFAs here like Conroy and Demitra. He also gets credit for good value on every major deal like the Blake deal. But he gets the blame for the team having no identity, no goaltending and no defense in the farm system. Also, Andy Murray was a bad hire too...he doesn't get blame for trying him but he should have fired him after a couple years after so many players got worn down and injured during his tenure.

Basically Al Murray gets a D grade and Taylor a F. You notice how since then, neither has gotten their job back on another team?
Wow, just wow! DT is director of player development & VP of the Blues & Al Murray is director of scouting in Tampa Bay. Stop while you're ahead & take the foot out of your mouth.

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09-10-2012, 01:49 PM
  #37
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Originally Posted by Dave in LA View Post
The DT/DL comparisons have been beaten to death already. Bottom line is AEG did not want to compete for the Cup until there was a cap in place. DT was a casualty of AEG's unwillingness to financially support the team. By TL's admission, the last 3 years before the lockout, he said the Kings weren't a priority.

So yes, there were 3 players left from the DT regime, but how many of DT's picks were traded to get the pieces that are on the current SC squad? Give him a little credit.
I'll admit that DL's scouting staff is far superior than DT's ever was. The man knows how to draft.

You can count me in as a Sutter supporter when it happened. A lot of people weren't. Same goes for the Carter trade.
If you read my post prior to this one, you'd see I did give him a little credit. I pegged it at about 10% or so. My point is some people on here make it sounds like DT should get almost the same amount of praise as DL becuse he drafted Kopitarf, Quick and Brown. As I said before, I'll give him some level of credit for this, but not a great amount. He had almost nothing to do with the development of both Kopitar and Quick, and it can be argued he did as much harm as good by rushing Brown into the NHL.

As for giving DT credit for his picks DL used to acquire pieces for the current SC squad, I counter by asking, should we give him credit for bringing in those picks/pieces for DL to use, or should we critize him for not bringing in more/better assests in the first place? Whether or not the Kings were a priority, DT didn't bring in enough talent to compete in the NHL. The Kings weren't a bottom of the barrel payroll team and had enough salary space to at the very least ice a playoff team. DT didn't most seasons, hence one of the reasons he was fired. I think DT didn't bring enough talent in, nevermind applauding him for what he did acquire.

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09-10-2012, 04:42 PM
  #38
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<-------------------------------- This.

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09-10-2012, 04:54 PM
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09-10-2012, 05:48 PM
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One thing that Lombardi values also is character. He made a lot of moves for guys who he believed to be good teammates and traded away guys he thought were not. I don't think Dave Taylor gave this very much thought considering he traded for guys like Jason Allison and Sean Avery.

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09-10-2012, 06:08 PM
  #41
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One thing that Lombardi values also is character. He made a lot of moves for guys who he believed to be good teammates and traded away guys he thought were not. I don't think Dave Taylor gave this very much thought considering he traded for guys like Jason Allison and Sean Avery.
Lombardi has had some blunders as well though. Remember, he brought Avery back after he was kicked off of the team. Although I understand what Lombardi was trying to do when he brought Avery back, built up his trade value then ship him off to another team. He later became New York's mess.

He also brought Rob Blake back who had his own motives in his second stint here. Not saying Blake was a poor teammate, but he pretty much received a paid vacation when he was brought back. Ladislav Nagy was another player who had a very questionable work ethic prior to coming to LA (and it didn't improve when he got here).

Don't forget all the baggage that Patrick O'Sullivan came with. That was public knowledge, but Lombardi still went out and acquired him from Minnesota. Sometimes you take a gamble on these types due to their talent and what they could bring to the table. Had Allison not gotten hurt, who knows how much better the team's fortunes would have been.

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09-10-2012, 06:16 PM
  #42
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All I remember was that a buddy told me he went to a Kings game way back when, left right as the game ended, raced out and headed to a bar in Manhattan Beach and Allison was already sitting at the bar by himself with a beer. I have heard a few rumors that Allison was kinda a dick and kept to himself.

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09-11-2012, 07:33 AM
  #43
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Originally Posted by Ziggy Stardust View Post
Lombardi has had some blunders as well though. Remember, he brought Avery back after he was kicked off of the team. Although I understand what Lombardi was trying to do when he brought Avery back, built up his trade value then ship him off to another team. He later became New York's mess.

He also brought Rob Blake back who had his own motives in his second stint here. Not saying Blake was a poor teammate, but he pretty much received a paid vacation when he was brought back. Ladislav Nagy was another player who had a very questionable work ethic prior to coming to LA (and it didn't improve when he got here).

Don't forget all the baggage that Patrick O'Sullivan came with. That was public knowledge, but Lombardi still went out and acquired him from Minnesota. Sometimes you take a gamble on these types due to their talent and what they could bring to the table. Had Allison not gotten hurt, who knows how much better the team's fortunes would have been.
Let's not forget that O'Sullivan had his best year in LA and hasn't come close to reproducing those numbers. Blake and Nagy though I totally agree with. The thing with DL is that he seems to covet players that work hard and aren't a distaraction. DT never really cared about that in his time here. There were players that he brought into the organization that you just knew from day one would be a distraction, Roenick, Avery, Parrish, Allison to name a few. That's not even looking at the multitude of prospects that had issues like Roussin, Pushkarev, Taylor, Munce, Tukonen to name a few.

To me it comes down to DT's inability to develop players and make them better year by year that was the cause for his lack of success... I honestly have trouble thinking of one player that DT brought in and that was a better player because of his time with the Kings. Players all too often seemed to come into Manchester or LA and just never improve their game. They were the same exact player they were the day they were drafted. Sure there would be slight improvement in numbers like Frolov, and Cammy saw but can you honestly attribute that to development and not just increased ice time or something along that line? Plus think of the list of players that left the Kings and found success elsewhere during DT's time here. Scary... That to me seems to be the main difference between the two, DL has been very good for the most part at turning a one dimensional player into a complete player and ensuring that players are developed properly.

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09-11-2012, 10:08 AM
  #44
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All I remember was that a buddy told me he went to a Kings game way back when, left right as the game ended, raced out and headed to a bar in Manhattan Beach and Allison was already sitting at the bar by himself with a beer. I have heard a few rumors that Allison was kinda a dick and kept to himself.
Did your buddy say if Allison was playing or not that game?

The way Andy Murray handled injured players and told them to stay away from the team, I wonder if Allison was encouraged to just not come to games if he ws injured, so he may have been at the bar all night. And odds are, Allison was injured. Seems like he was hurt more than he was healthy in LA.

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09-12-2012, 10:19 AM
  #45
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If you read my post prior to this one, you'd see I did give him a little credit. I pegged it at about 10% or so. My point is some people on here make it sounds like DT should get almost the same amount of praise as DL becuse he drafted Kopitarf, Quick and Brown. As I said before, I'll give him some level of credit for this, but not a great amount. He had almost nothing to do with the development of both Kopitar and Quick, and it can be argued he did as much harm as good by rushing Brown into the NHL.

As for giving DT credit for his picks DL used to acquire pieces for the current SC squad, I counter by asking, should we give him credit for bringing in those picks/pieces for DL to use, or should we critize him for not bringing in more/better assests in the first place? Whether or not the Kings were a priority, DT didn't bring in enough talent to compete in the NHL. The Kings weren't a bottom of the barrel payroll team and had enough salary space to at the very least ice a playoff team. DT didn't most seasons, hence one of the reasons he was fired. I think DT didn't bring enough talent in, nevermind applauding him for what he did acquire.
Why not? DL gets credit for picks/players Doug Wilson traded away in SJ for Thornton, Heatley, etc.

You can throw DT under the bus all you want, but the bottom line was, he had a limited budget & had to bring in dumpster players to fill roster spots. Maybe if he was given some financial flexibilty, he could have retained players such as Robitaille & Boucher & let Brown develop in Guelph & Manchester. But, AEG/TL didn't want to pay them their market value & cried poverty. This led to a revolt from the fans. AEG tried proving it by opening the books to Piston. It was distraction from the real truth. They didn't want to compete for a Cup until there was a cap in place. That was the truth.

Now, I agree that DL is far more superior when it comes to drafting & developing players. As Mr. Utah said, he focused more on drafting, acquiring & signing character players. Something DT didn't really do.

It's not secret that I am DT fan & supporter. I think he got a raw deal, imo.

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09-12-2012, 10:58 AM
  #46
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Why not? DL gets credit for picks/players Doug Wilson traded away in SJ for Thornton, Heatley, etc.

You can throw DT under the bus all you want, but the bottom line was, he had a limited budget & had to bring in dumpster players to fill roster spots. Maybe if he was given some financial flexibilty, he could have retained players such as Robitaille & Boucher & let Brown develop in Guelph & Manchester. But, AEG/TL didn't want to pay them their market value & cried poverty. This led to a revolt from the fans. AEG tried proving it by opening the books to Piston. It was distraction from the real truth. They didn't want to compete for a Cup until there was a cap in place. That was the truth.

Now, I agree that DL is far more superior when it comes to drafting & developing players. As Mr. Utah said, he focused more on drafting, acquiring & signing character players. Something DT didn't really do.

It's not secret that I am DT fan & supporter. I think he got a raw deal, imo.
This and lets not forget that DL started our rebuilding process by being allowed to build an actual substructure or foundation for our teams success by developing an actual minor league system.

DT simply wasn't given that opportunity. If anyone discounts even slightly how significant our having a top notch developmental system has been to our success then I really would have to question their understanding of how the game works.

DT did a good job given the scope of what he was capable of doing. He blew it at the end by making a few questionable deals but you can see what he was trying to accomplish. The guy left us and went to Dallas and is now VP of a very good team. He is a top notch hockey person.

DL has been our best GM for several reasons including the way he built our team from the ground up both in the NHL and our minor league/depth.

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09-12-2012, 11:59 AM
  #47
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Why not? DL gets credit for picks/players Doug Wilson traded away in SJ for Thornton, Heatley, etc.

You can throw DT under the bus all you want, but the bottom line was, he had a limited budget & had to bring in dumpster players to fill roster spots. Maybe if he was given some financial flexibilty, he could have retained players such as Robitaille & Boucher & let Brown develop in Guelph & Manchester. But, AEG/TL didn't want to pay them their market value & cried poverty. This led to a revolt from the fans. AEG tried proving it by opening the books to Piston. It was distraction from the real truth. They didn't want to compete for a Cup until there was a cap in place. That was the truth.

Now, I agree that DL is far more superior when it comes to drafting & developing players. As Mr. Utah said, he focused more on drafting, acquiring & signing character players. Something DT didn't really do.

It's not secret that I am DT fan & supporter. I think he got a raw deal, imo.
If DL gets credit for guys in SJ, that's fine and dandy, but he doesn't with me. That's so many years ago, it's highly irrelevant and not applicable to me, or my post.

Also, regardless of what was going on outside the arena with caps/AEG/Piston, etc, lets get back to the on ice product. I think you underestimate the salary flexibility DT had.

The following is the average NHL payroll per season starting in 1998-99 and what the Kings payroll was:

1998-99: NHL average: $29,730,833 Kings payroll: $30,600,000
1999-2000: NHL average: $31,564,167 Kings payroll: $34,600,000
2000-01: NHL average: $33,375,943 Kings payroll: $34,557,500
2001-02: NHL average: $38,011,852 Kings payroll: $39,656,488
2002-03: NHL average: $41,939,715 Kings payroll: $37,412,434
2003-04: NHL average: $44,400,490 Kings payroll: $53,833,800

Only once did the Kings have a payroll below the league average.

In 1998-99 the Kings had the 14th ranked payroll (28 teams)
1999-2000: 8th ranked (28 teams)
2000-01: 13th ranked (30 teams)
2001-02: 14th ranked (30 teams)
2002-03; 14th ranked (30 teams)
2003-04: 8th ranked (30 teams)

Not once did the Kings have a payroll in bottom half of the league and in fact twice had a payroll in the top 10 in the league.

I agree with you and TG that DT didn't have a very good developmental system in place and that was an issue for him, but payroll wise, he had the money to ice a playoff team and more often than not failed to do so.

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09-12-2012, 12:22 PM
  #48
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If DL gets credit for guys in SJ, that's fine and dandy, but he doesn't with me. That's so many years ago, it's highly irrelevant and not applicable to me, or my post.

Also, regardless of what was going on outside the arena with caps/AEG/Piston, etc, lets get back to the on ice product. I think you underestimate the salary flexibility DT had.

The following is the average NHL payroll per season starting in 1998-99 and what the Kings payroll was:

1998-99: NHL average: $29,730,833 Kings payroll: $30,600,000
1999-2000: NHL average: $31,564,167 Kings payroll: $34,600,000
2000-01: NHL average: $33,375,943 Kings payroll: $34,557,500
2001-02: NHL average: $38,011,852 Kings payroll: $39,656,488
2002-03: NHL average: $41,939,715 Kings payroll: $37,412,434
2003-04: NHL average: $44,400,490 Kings payroll: $53,833,800

Only once did the Kings have a payroll below the league average.

In 1998-99 the Kings had the 14th ranked payroll (28 teams)
1999-2000: 8th ranked (28 teams)
2000-01: 13th ranked (30 teams)
2001-02: 14th ranked (30 teams)
2002-03; 14th ranked (30 teams)
2003-04: 8th ranked (30 teams)

Not once did the Kings have a payroll in bottom half of the league and in fact twice had a payroll in the top 10 in the league.

I agree with you and TG that DT didn't have a very good developmental system in place and that was an issue for him, but payroll wise, he had the money to ice a playoff team and more often than not failed to do so.


That is the primary basis for my liking the deal, that and the fact that you can't know rather or not a player may or may not become injury prone with any real certainty and as such the deal was fair.

Of course it could be argued that had Al and DT done a better job at the draft table that the deal could have been amazing for us but that again is arguable.

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09-13-2012, 09:53 AM
  #49
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After 2002, you have to consider the insurance money from the Allison & Deadmarsh injuries. That money was added to the budget. It wasn't AEG's money.

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09-13-2012, 01:48 PM
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After 2002, you have to consider the insurance money from the Allison & Deadmarsh injuries. That money was added to the budget. It wasn't AEG's money.
I don't have confirmation on whether or not those two were counted in the budgets for those seasons. I only have team totals, not what players counted towards that dollar amount.

That said, for 2002-2003, Allison and Deadmarsh played 26 and 20 games respectively, and IIRC insurance monies don't kick in immediately after injury, so roughly half or slightly more of their salaries were paid by the club most likely in 2002-2003. You likely have a point on 2003-2004 since neither played a game.

That said, numbers would adjust for all teams as well if we began to remove salaries covered by insurance, and there's no definitive measurement for those numbers available anywhere as that information isn't released by the NHL, NHLPA, individual clubs or insurance agencies, at least none I'm aware of.

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