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Old
09-10-2012, 06:10 PM
  #201
HighLifeMan
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Originally Posted by ProspectProphet View Post
Now throw him on the Canucks, take away some PP time, give him a few less minutes per game, and he probably doesn't even score 20. Then we traded our top prospect for 2 years worth of a little-bit-grittier Clarke MacArthur.
Except the entire premise of the trade for Vancouver would be to acquire him to play on the second line. Stop trying to discredit his value with what "ifs".

He has scored 50 goals, and produced 91 points over the past two seasons playing second line minutes. Those are top six numbers on any team in the league no matter how you spin it.. Your acting as if he has been receiving top line minutes consistently with elite players in Calgary which is obviously not the case.

If you don't want him at the price of Kassian, that is completely fine. I just don't see the need for you to continuously try and sell his value short.

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09-10-2012, 06:32 PM
  #202
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Originally Posted by ProspectProphet View Post
So then we can agree that he is a complementary player?
Yes of course just like Burrows is, I have never made the claim he is a star but you aren't going to get a star to play on the 2nd line and pk. I don't see why being a complementary player is a bad thing.

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09-10-2012, 06:34 PM
  #203
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Originally Posted by ProspectProphet View Post
%24! That is like 1 goal every 4 shots. If he's as good as you guys claim, then let him shoot more. Stamkos had 60 goals in 303 shots. So if Glencross took 303 shots, you think he'd score 75???

He had a career year on the strength of an unsustainable shooting percentage. He's a garbage -goalscorer, not a sniper. He relies on getting lucky bouces. Give him credit for being in the right spot, but even then, he scored a number of weak goals.
You can call them garbage all you want but tips and rebounds from going to the net are what win hockey games. He isn't afraid of the dirty areas, is he a Stamkos scorer? No of course not but the fact that he scores the majority of his goals of screens and rebounds should mean that his shooting percentage has a better chance of staying that high not going down as you claim because he is getting the "easy" ones.

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09-10-2012, 06:36 PM
  #204
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Kassian isn't enough of a sure thing prospect to give Glenncross up for and in terms of a rebuild dumping Glencross with his excellent contract, decent age and all around skillset would be terrible asset management for the Flames. If the Flames put him on the market, there would probably be 25 teams throwing offers out for him.

Kassian would probably be at the low end of the offer scale.

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09-10-2012, 07:17 PM
  #205
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Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch67 View Post
Kassian isn't enough of a sure thing prospect to give Glenncross up for and in terms of a rebuild dumping Glencross with his excellent contract, decent age and all around skillset would be terrible asset management for the Flames. If the Flames put him on the market, there would probably be 25 teams throwing offers out for him.

Kassian would probably be at the low end of the offer scale.
Keep telling yourself that....

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09-10-2012, 07:23 PM
  #206
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Originally Posted by HighLifeMan View Post
For example lets just assume that he reverts back to around 15% accuracy, and has roughly 150 shots on net. That puts him on pace for 23 goals over a full season.

Expecting him to hit 30 goals may be a reach, but so it hoping that he falls back down to 15 goals as you mentioned.
Very good assessment. A 20-25G is what I value Glencross at.


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Originally Posted by Double Dion View Post
How exactly is it reasonable to expect a guy who had improved every year to regress to less than half his pace from the previous year and be well under averages that he sustained when playing a 4th line role?
I expect Glencross to score 20-25G.

15G+ is my low guess if he happens to be injured and misses a few games.

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Originally Posted by NightBlazer View Post
His GPG and SH% has progressed significantly every year. Why should we revert to his career average when he's clearly been progressing and growing more confident as an offensive player?
He will regress because he is not a 24% shooter. I'm not saying he can't score as many goals as he did but it will come at a much lower SH%.

He may score 30G if he takes more shots and is given more ice-time (or just stays healthy).


Overall I don't think the Canucks need a player like Glencross, if I had to pick a player for our 2nd line Tanguay is a much better fit.

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09-10-2012, 07:48 PM
  #207
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Originally Posted by TheGleninator View Post
You can call them garbage all you want but tips and rebounds from going to the net are what win hockey games. He isn't afraid of the dirty areas, is he a Stamkos scorer? No of course not but the fact that he scores the majority of his goals of screens and rebounds should mean that his shooting percentage has a better chance of staying that high not going down as you claim because he is getting the "easy" ones.
Start of career until end of the 2010-2011 season: 68 goals on 530 shots, 12.8%.
2011-2012: 26 goals on 110 shots, 23.6%.

Yeah, it's sure going to "stay that high".

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09-10-2012, 08:16 PM
  #208
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Originally Posted by eklunds source View Post
Start of career until end of the 2010-2011 season: 68 goals on 530 shots, 12.8%.
2011-2012: 26 goals on 110 shots, 23.6%.

Yeah, it's sure going to "stay that high".
It was also the first full year he played on the top pp unit on any nhl team where played the screen and scored 8 of his goals so you aren't proving me wrong. He scored many of his goals off rebounds and tips and losing Jokinen the other screen we used can only help him. I have already said I think it will go down but not because he doesn't score as much but because he will shoot more this year.

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09-10-2012, 08:52 PM
  #209
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Originally Posted by kthsn View Post

Overall I don't think the Canucks need a player like Glencross, if I had to pick a player for our 2nd line Tanguay is a much better fit.
Bingo. Its nothing against Glencross, hes a great player. Hes a very slightly better version of Chris Higgins and I think most Canucks fans would agree you can never have enough Chris Higgins on your team.

The issue is, we already have a guy like Glencross in Higgins (and even Hansen/Burrows to a certain extent).

While Glencross is a solid player, your better off drafting onw (Hansen) or buying low (Higgins for a 3rd) then paying peak value which we would with Glencross.

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09-10-2012, 09:18 PM
  #210
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Originally Posted by HighLifeMan View Post
Except the entire premise of the trade for Vancouver would be to acquire him to play on the second line. Stop trying to discredit his value with what "ifs".

He has scored 50 goals, and produced 91 points over the past two seasons playing second line minutes. Those are top six numbers on any team in the league no matter how you spin it.. Your acting as if he has been receiving top line minutes consistently with elite players in Calgary which is obviously not the case.

If you don't want him at the price of Kassian, that is completely fine. I just don't see the need for you to continuously try and sell his value short.
You guys are putting his value too high, based on a career season. Am I not allowed to think that GlenX might not fit into our top 6? There is certainly no guarantee that he would be, therefore, the what if's. 1 season, with time on the top PP. He earned it in Calgary - no doubt- but would he earn it here? Pretty damn big "if.

And this is exactly what you guys are doing to Kassian. 1st pro year, and he is practically written off, or is a B-level prospect. What goes around, comes around.

I called him a big fish in a small pond - I believe he is.


Last edited by Kass Effect: 09-10-2012 at 09:31 PM.
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09-10-2012, 09:34 PM
  #211
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It was also the first full year he played on the top pp unit on any nhl team where played the screen and scored 8 of his goals so you aren't proving me wrong. He scored many of his goals off rebounds and tips and losing Jokinen the other screen we used can only help him. I have already said I think it will go down but not because he doesn't score as much but because he will shoot more this year.
SeasonShots per gameEV+PP TOI/game
'08-'092.0513:57
'09-'101.7514:42
'10-'111.8915:04
'11-'121.6415:58
Glencross' shots per game hit a 4-year low DESPITE having a lot more ice time per game, and you think "he will shoot more". Is there any particular reason you think Glencross will shoot more? ...because if you actually look at the situation, it's reasonable to think he'll shoot much less.

- He has added competition for top-6 ice time and powerplay time. Calgary loses Jokinen and adds Hudler, Baertschi, Cervenka, and has a full season of Cammalleri.

- Calgary doesn't have many forwards who can actually handle tough minutes. Iginla, Tanguay, Cammalleri, Hudler, and likely Baertschi are all better served with prime offensive minutes, with offensive zone starts and against 3rd/4th lines. Glencross is one of Calgary's very few forwards who has a track record of being able to reduce top-end opponents' shots and scoring chances. The Flames really need players who are capable of handling defensive minutes and a line of Glencross/Backlund/Comeau is likely the best option.

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09-10-2012, 09:53 PM
  #212
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Originally Posted by eklunds source View Post
SeasonShots per gameEV+PP TOI/game
'08-'092.0513:57
'09-'101.7514:42
'10-'111.8915:04
'11-'121.6415:58
Glencross' shots per game hit a 4-year low DESPITE having a lot more ice time per game, and you think "he will shoot more". Is there any particular reason you think Glencross will shoot more? ...because if you actually look at the situation, it's reasonable to think he'll shoot much less.

- He has added competition for top-6 ice time and powerplay time. Calgary loses Jokinen and adds Hudler, Baertschi, Cervenka, and has a full season of Cammalleri.

- Calgary doesn't have many forwards who can actually handle tough minutes. Iginla, Tanguay, Cammalleri, Hudler, and likely Baertschi are all better served with prime offensive minutes, with offensive zone starts and against 3rd/4th lines. Glencross is one of Calgary's very few forwards who has a track record of being able to reduce top-end opponents' shots and scoring chances. The Flames really need players who are capable of handling defensive minutes and a line of Glencross/Backlund/Comeau is likely the best option.
I think he will shoot more mainly because the Flames are going to play a more offensive system last year they averaged 27.5 shots a game they were 5th worst in the nhl. Many teams he passed up a shot chance to pass to Jokinen who was second on the team in shots. With out Jokinen I think Glencross will shoot more. I am actually looking at the situation you are looking at the stats. His shooting percentage was so high because he passed to Jokinen instead of shooting and he played the screen on the pp and got the rebound goals. With out Jokinen he should shoot more and be in a more offensive team and he will get more screen time on the pp with out Jokinen. So yes he will shoot more and most likely score around the same number of goals.

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09-11-2012, 12:15 AM
  #213
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It would be pretty funny if he was to put up 10 goals, and like 50 assists next season.

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09-11-2012, 12:19 AM
  #214
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It would be pretty funny if he was to put up 10 goals, and like 50 assists next season.
Kassian? Not at all. I fully expect him to break out this season.

Nah, if he could put up 20-25-45, then I would be really happy.

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09-11-2012, 01:53 PM
  #215
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Kassian has top 6 potential while I do love glencross I see him more as a third liner Canucks have a good third line as is so I would say no from Canucks pov

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09-11-2012, 02:20 PM
  #216
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Originally Posted by eklunds source View Post
Glencross' shots per game hit a 4-year low DESPITE having a lot more ice time per game, and you think "he will shoot more". Is there any particular reason you think Glencross will shoot more? ...because if you actually look at the situation, it's reasonable to think he'll shoot much less.
He's been quoted as saying he's planning on shooting a lot more next season, and that his aims for next (full) season are 30G, 30A.

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09-11-2012, 02:24 PM
  #217
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You guys are putting his value too high, based on a career season. Am I not allowed to think that GlenX might not fit into our top 6? There is certainly no guarantee that he would be, therefore, the what if's. 1 season, with time on the top PP. He earned it in Calgary - no doubt- but would he earn it here? Pretty damn big "if.

And this is exactly what you guys are doing to Kassian. 1st pro year, and he is practically written off, or is a B-level prospect. What goes around, comes around.

I called him a big fish in a small pond - I believe he is.
He's had two great seasons now, though last season was much better than the year before, he still had 24 goals two years ago. He would most definitely be on Vancouver's top 6.

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09-11-2012, 02:45 PM
  #218
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I wouldn't, but frankly they are similar. Burrows is a better defensive player than Glencross and has better hands, but Glencross is tougher and has a better shot.
You haven't watched him play then..

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09-11-2012, 03:32 PM
  #219
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Expecting much offence this year from Kassian is a bit premature me thinks...
I feel he is minimum 2 years away from making a serious impact on the games. He isn't a bust or anything but at 21 years old he's just not ready to dominate quite yet.
I may be in the minority here but I would love to see Glencross in Canuck colours. He brings exactly the intangibles the current roster is lacking in my opinion.
That said, I wouldn't be making that trade simply because I feel Kassian has a higher potential ceiling and by the time he starts to dominate games Vancouver will be looking to replace the Sedins.

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09-11-2012, 03:43 PM
  #220
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He's had two great seasons now, though last season was much better than the year before, he still had 24 goals two years ago. He would most definitely be on Vancouver's top 6.
Sedin-Sedin-Burrows

Booth-Kesler-x

Glencross won't over-take any of the 5 players in their current position. That means he's fighting for one roster spot between about 4 players: Higgins, Hansen, Kassian and even to some extent Jensen. Even Hansen had a career year last year so there's no reason to suspect he won't continue to trend upwards.

Glencross is great but you may want to re-think your stance. He's not a guarantee in vancouver's top 6. Vancouver is very deep offensively and a player like Glencross is also usefull in a bottom 6 role killing penalties. This is precisely why Vancouver paying a premium price in Kassian for Glencross makes no sense. And to be fair to Flames fans, it doesn't make sense for them to trade away part of their core for a prospect who is very much a question mark at this point.

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09-11-2012, 03:46 PM
  #221
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You haven't watched him play then..
They are both very good defensively. Too hard to say who has the edge. Whoever does, it's very slight.

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09-11-2012, 03:55 PM
  #222
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Originally Posted by CanuckLuck View Post
Sedin-Sedin-Burrows

Booth-Kesler-x

Glencross won't over-take any of the 5 players in their current position. That means he's fighting for one roster spot between about 4 players: Higgins, Hansen, Kassian and even to some extent Jensen. Even Hansen had a career year last year so there's no reason to suspect he won't continue to trend upwards.

Glencross is great but you may want to re-think your stance. He's not a guarantee in vancouver's top 6. Vancouver is very deep offensively and a player like Glencross is also usefull in a bottom 6 role killing penalties. This is precisely why Vancouver paying a premium price in Kassian for Glencross makes no sense. And to be fair to Flames fans, it doesn't make sense for them to trade away part of their core for a prospect who is very much a question mark at this point.
Let's get real here. Glencross is WAY better right now than those 4 players listed, and David Booth, who hasn't had a great year since 2008.

It's not a question of whether he'd make the second line, which he would easily, it's a question of whether he'd take Burrows spot on the top line. Glencross is a better shooter than Burrows, great at one timers, I think he'd be a better fit and if he was a Canuck there'd be a great chance that he'd play on the top line.

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09-11-2012, 04:01 PM
  #223
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Let's get real here. Glencross is WAY better right now than those 4 players listed, and David Booth, who hasn't had a great year since 2008.

It's not a question of whether he'd make the second line, which he would easily, it's a question of whether he'd take Burrows spot on the top line. Glencross is a better shooter than Burrows, great at one timers, I think he'd be a better fit and if he was a Canuck there'd be a great chance that he'd play on the top line.
Burrows has amazing chemistry with the Sedins. That group will not be split up. And no, Glencross is not better than Booth...Booth is a much better player than his critics will claim. He scored 30 at one point and that's something Glencross is unlikely to ever accomplish. Whether Booth can get back to that form is in the air. The skill level between these two players isn't even close.

His spot in the top 6 is not GUARANTEED. That is all i'm saying. SO for Vancouver to lose an asset like Kassian for this type of player makes no sense. This shouldn't be a debate, it's just the truth of this particular player.

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09-11-2012, 04:10 PM
  #224
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Burrows has amazing chemistry with the Sedins. That group will not be split up. And no, Glencross is not better than Booth...Booth is a much better player than his critics will claim. He scored 30 at one point and that's something Glencross is unlikely to ever accomplish. Whether Booth can get back to that form is in the air. The skill level between these two players isn't even close.

His spot in the top 6 is not GUARANTEED. That is all i'm saying. SO for Vancouver to lose an asset like Kassian for this type of player makes no sense. This shouldn't be a debate, it's just the truth of this particular player.
He scored 30 at one point? 5 years ago? Wow those were the days! Booth may have been as good back then as Glencross is right now, although it's pretty close. Right now though Glencross is easily the better player. You also have no basis saying Glencross won't score 30 goals. That's a ridiculous claim. He's come out and said his plan is to shoot more and score 30 next year. Only on HFBoards though does having the best shooting percentage in the league count as a negative.

Burrows has good chemistry with the Sedin's, Glencross has good chemistry too with his linemates, and is great at finishing off passes, and he's a better shooter...I'm not saying that Burrows isn't good with the Sedin's, I'm just saying that Glencross could quite conceivably be better. He scored 2 less goals, in 13 less games, without the best playmaking duo in the world on his line.

And yeah he'd easily be a lock for top 6. He's a high energy 25 goal scorer, with the best shooting percentage in the league. He'd be top 6 on most teams, and definitely on Vancouver.

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09-11-2012, 04:12 PM
  #225
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Burrows has amazing chemistry with the Sedins. That group will not be split up. And no, Glencross is not better than Booth...Booth is a much better player than his critics will claim. He scored 30 at one point and that's something Glencross is unlikely to ever accomplish. Whether Booth can get back to that form is in the air. The skill level between these two players isn't even close.

His spot in the top 6 is not GUARANTEED. That is all i'm saying. SO for Vancouver to lose an asset like Kassian for this type of player makes no sense. This shouldn't be a debate, it's just the truth of this particular player
.
Um who cares about Booth's skill, he's been on the decline and had serious injury problems since 2008, the results speak for themselves, Booth played on a Canucks team with better depth and skill then the Flames and he didn't do much of anything last year, just like with Florida before that making him trade bait.

Glencross is just plain better situationally and in terms of results.

You can have all the skills in the world and if it doesn't translate to results who cares.

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