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Quebec Election: Part Trois

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Old
09-05-2012, 03:58 PM
  #101
Lonny Bohonos
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kjell Dahlin View Post
Oh please...

(1) the author, like most economists from the right, refused to factor in the cost of living

(2) "... Quebecers' rate of participation in the workforce is lower than in other provinces, and people in the province work fewer hours per week, earn less per hour worked – and retire earlier, too..."

It's called a nation's choice. You can't limit yourself to #hours worked - like they did in this study - when measuring "wealth". Plenty of small countries (Scandinavians countries comes to mind) are doing well and adopted a viable and human prosperity model. This study emphasises the value we, in Quebec, put in a broader definition of the concept known as "quality of life". Why are you considering retiring early as a bad thing?

Btw... you never seems to react directly to my answers: you just keep on moving forward... somewhat blindly imo
Lol

First thing that came up in a search for Quebec and CoL or "bang for buck".

Since you didnt want to take the initiative.

Dont insult the scandinavians by comparing quebec to them.

1) the majority take the time to speak better english than most native english speakers so they can compete and do business outside of their own country.
2) the do their best to promote industry within their country.

CoL as per article:

"Living costs going up

Quebecers already pay the highest provincial taxes in the country, but they have generally consoled themselves with the belief the cost-of-living is lower in the province.

Coiteux said that is still true, but costs for necessities such as food and housing are increasing faster in Quebec than elsewhere.

"This advantage is about to disappear," Coiteux said.

Even with the lower cost of living in Quebec, Quebecers had, on average, $2,891 less to spend than Albertans in 2005. By 2009, Coiteux found that gap had ballooned to $13,352.

Coiteux said fiscal arrangements to redistribute wealth cushion the impact of Quebecers' lower earnings. Because Quebecers take home less money, they pay less in federal taxes and receive more by way of transfer payments from Ottawa."

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09-05-2012, 03:59 PM
  #102
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I worked for the liberals so I have a lot of contacts with them. There were murmurs that Charest was going to resign whether he won or not.

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Old
09-05-2012, 04:01 PM
  #103
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kjell Dahlin View Post
Oh please...

(1) the author, like most economists from the right, refused to factor in the cost of living

(2) "... Quebecers' rate of participation in the workforce is lower than in other provinces, and people in the province work fewer hours per week, earn less per hour worked – and retire earlier, too..."

It's called a nation's choice. You can't limit yourself to #hours worked - like they did in this study - when measuring "wealth". Plenty of small countries (Scandinavians countries comes to mind) are doing well and adopted a viable and human prosperity model. This study emphasises the value we, in Quebec, put in a broader definition of the concept known as "quality of life". Why are you considering retiring early as a bad thing?

Btw... you never seems to react directly to my answers: you just keep on moving forward... somewhat blindly imo
Wow you are amazing, so he provides you and article that talks about research done by the HEC and you trying and write it off to being written by a right leaning author...is that the best you can do?

See this quote? Looks to me like the author did take into account the cost of living.

Quote:
Living costs going up
Quebecers already pay the highest provincial taxes in the country, but they have generally consoled themselves with the belief the cost-of-living is lower in the province.

Coiteux said that is still true, but costs for necessities such as food and housing are increasing faster in Quebec than elsewhere.

"This advantage is about to disappear," Coiteux said.

Even with the lower cost of living in Quebec, Quebecers had, on average, $2,891 less to spend than Albertans in 2005. By 2009, Coiteux found that gap had ballooned to $13,352.

Coiteux said fiscal arrangements to redistribute wealth cushion the impact of Quebecers' lower earnings. Because Quebecers take home less money, they pay less in federal taxes and receive more by way of transfer payments from Ottawa.
Please explain how the quality of life is so much better, if at all better in Quebec then anywhere else in Canada?

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09-05-2012, 04:03 PM
  #104
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RonFournier View Post
We just got rid of one of the worst PMs in Québec history!

Wait did Marois resign already?

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Old
09-05-2012, 04:06 PM
  #105
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Originally Posted by Burke the Legend View Post
The spin factor here is off the chart. And yes it is a problem when people here don't work, and expect this "quality of life" they enjoy in their downtime to be subsidized by other people's work.
It is working for the Scandinavians countries - and other small countries. I hope you realise that different nations have different priorities/values and there is more than one viable economic model?

The concept, as Jacques Parizeau called it, is called "une prospérité pépère". A good translation would be "a human and viable growth". Growth is indeed the objective but not at all costs – money is not the only descriptor of "quality of life".

As for the spin doctor remarks... you are the master. As already mentioned, Quebec is sending a lot more money to Ottawa than what we receive... but eh... keep on yelling like the wild roses party...

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09-05-2012, 04:06 PM
  #106
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Let's protect French culture!!

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09-05-2012, 04:08 PM
  #107
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kjell Dahlin View Post
It is working for the Scandinavians countries - and other small countries. I hope you realise that different nations have different priorities/values and there is more than one viable economic model?

The concept, as Jacques Parizeau called it, is called "une prospérité pépère". A good translation would be "a human and viable growth". Growth is indeed the objective but not at all costs – money is not the only descriptor of "quality of life".

As for the spin doctor remarks... you are the master. As already mentioned, Quebec is sending a lot more money to Ottawa than what we receive... but eh... keep on yelling like the wild roses party...
Ummm no Quebec is not sending more money than it sends to Ottawa. Check this little thing called equalization payments.

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09-05-2012, 04:09 PM
  #108
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lonny Bohonos View Post
Lol

First thing that came up in a search for Quebec and CoL or "bang for buck".

Since you didnt want to take the initiative.

Dont insult the scandinavians by comparing quebec to them.

1) the majority take the time to speak better english than most native english speakers so they can compete and do business outside of their own country.
2) the do their best to promote industry within their country.

CoL as per article:

"Living costs going up

Quebecers already pay the highest provincial taxes in the country, but they have generally consoled themselves with the belief the cost-of-living is lower in the province.

Coiteux said that is still true, but costs for necessities such as food and housing are increasing faster in Quebec than elsewhere.

"This advantage is about to disappear," Coiteux said.

Even with the lower cost of living in Quebec, Quebecers had, on average, $2,891 less to spend than Albertans in 2005. By 2009, Coiteux found that gap had ballooned to $13,352.

Coiteux said fiscal arrangements to redistribute wealth cushion the impact of Quebecers' lower earnings. Because Quebecers take home less money, they pay less in federal taxes and receive more by way of transfer payments from Ottawa."
"... Dont insult the scandinavians by comparing quebec to them..."

Oh good... now comparing something/someone to Quebec is an insult... you are a funny man/woman!

Btw... can you read the bolded part?

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Old
09-05-2012, 04:10 PM
  #109
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Originally Posted by Strik_IX View Post
What you don't mention is that Québec sends more than it receives, dammit I wish I had youtube :S

Someone plug the damned Aussant video in english please.
That's a nonsensical argument. The province as a whole sends more to the federal government then the provincial government gets back from the federal government is true. But that isn't the only thing the Provinces gets back, it also gets its share of general federal spending that isn't transfer payments.

Most of that isn't redundant bureaucrats, its functions of government that the Quebec government would have to expand and replace or do without.

Currently Quebecers receive the benefits of citizenship based on being part of a country with a per capita income of ~47 000. By themselves they have per capita income of ~40 000. This was the entire point of equalization, that each province would be able to provide services at roughly Canadian average, regardless of tax base.

There's going to a considerable shortfall in what their government can afford to do which is going to have to be made up for in reduced benefits or taking on more debt. And the dept situation of an independent Quebec isn't pretty. Especially factoring in that the cost of borrowing for Quebec is going to be higher than it is for Canada right now.

This is ignoring other factors like the prospect of net capital and labour flight in the event of secession, which seems likely, and the multiplier effects of a sharp decrease in aggregate demand from reduced government spending.

Seperation at this point in time is very likely to have a noticeable effect on Quebec's standard of living.

So what you guys are saying is technically correct. It just doesn't mean anything, or at least, not what you claim it means.

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Old
09-05-2012, 04:11 PM
  #110
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beowulf View Post
Ummm no Quebec is not sending more money than it sends to Ottawa. Check this little thing called equalization payments.
You keep on asking me to provide links/sources... care to compare what we send to Ottawa with the equalization payments?

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09-05-2012, 04:11 PM
  #111
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RonFournier View Post
We just got rid of one of the worst PMs in Québec history!

..and replaced him with someone even worse! That takes a special kind of talent.

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Old
09-05-2012, 04:11 PM
  #112
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kjell Dahlin View Post
"... Dont insult the scandinavians by comparing quebec to them..."

Oh good... now comparing something/someone to Quebec is an insult... you are a funny man/woman!

Btw... can you read the bolded part?
Interesting how you bold the part saying it is still true but not the part about how it has been falling and continues to fall fast. What happens when the cost of living advantage is gone and people are still making less?

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Old
09-05-2012, 04:12 PM
  #113
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kjell Dahlin View Post
It is working for the Scandinavians countries - and other small countries. I hope you realise that different nations have different priorities/values and there is more than one viable economic model?

The concept, as Jacques Parizeau called it, is called "une prospérité pépère". A good translation would be "a human and viable growth". Growth is indeed the objective but not at all costs – money is not the only descriptor of "quality of life".

As for the spin doctor remarks... you are the master. As already mentioned, Quebec is sending a lot more money to Ottawa than what we receive... but eh... keep on yelling like the wild roses party...
So provide the "descriptors" that are used to measure quality of life and apply them equally to all provinces.

You do realize that other provinces look at things very similar, do you not?

No, of course you don't, and actually, I'd be scared ****less to hear your vision of what a Western Canadian is.

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Old
09-05-2012, 04:13 PM
  #114
Kjell Dahlin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beowulf View Post


Let's protect French culture!!
Ok I am out; sinking to your level would imply me posting a link to the English dude who tried to kill Pauline Marois. Good job

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Old
09-05-2012, 04:16 PM
  #115
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beowulf View Post
Wait did Marois resign already?
Quote:
Originally Posted by KJP View Post
..and replaced him with someone even worse! That takes a special kind of talent.
Once Marois actually gets the chance to make a 10th of what Charest did/did not do to hurt the province in the past 10 years, then these comments might have a semblance of relevance.

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Old
09-05-2012, 04:20 PM
  #116
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kjell Dahlin View Post
You keep on asking me to provide links/sources... care to compare what we send to Ottawa with the equalization payments?
This list of the 6 provinces that receive equalization payments and how much. See how Quebec receives more than then other 5 combined? Though granted it is due to population size but it is just embarrassing to see Quebec on this list.

http://www.fin.gc.ca/fedprov/eqp-eng.asp

Quote:
FEDERAL SUPPORT TO QUEBEC

In 2012-13, the Government of Quebec will receive $17.4 billion through major transfers (Canada Health Transfer, Canada Social Transfer and Equalization) and direct targeted support – an increase of $5.3 billion from 2005-06.

MAJOR TRANSFERS

In 2011-12, the Government of Quebec received $17.3 billion in major transfers – an increase of $5.3 billion since 2005-06. These transfers were estimated to account for about 26 per cent of its revenues in that year.

DIRECT TARGETED SUPPORT

Quebec also benefits from significant investments in targeted areas such as labour market training and wait times reduction.

The Government of Canada also provided support to Quebec through trust funds.
Quote:
Equalization payments are one example of what are often collectively referred to in Canada as "transfer payments", a term used in other jurisdictions to refer to cash payments to individuals (see Canadian Transfer Payments). In fact, there are four types of federal transfers to provinces and territories: the Canada Health Transfer (CHT), the Canada Social Transfer (CST), Equalization, and Territorial Formula Financing (TFF). Moreover, the federal government has entered into particular arrangements with certain provinces – Nova Scotia and Newfoundland and Labrador, in particular – under which offset payments are made to the governments of these provinces for the development of offshore oil and gas reserves[3].
The money the provinces receive through equalization can be spent in any way the provincial government desires. The payments help guarantee "reasonably comparable levels" of health care, education, and welfare in all the provinces. The definition of "reasonably comparable levels", however, has been the subject of considerable debate.
So yes Quebec receives more than it sends out.


Last edited by beowulf: 09-05-2012 at 04:27 PM.
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Old
09-05-2012, 04:25 PM
  #117
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kjell Dahlin View Post
Ok I am out; sinking to your level would imply me posting a link to the English dude who tried to kill Pauline Marois. Good job
So the fact that 2 french people for no apparent reason interjected themselves into the conversation of 4 English speaking in English is ok to you?

I've already said that the violence that happened last night was stupid and I hope the guy pays with a nice long time in jail.

The video I linked to is not uncommon. I've been witness to people like that very often, French people that think it is ok to give their opinion to you when you don't know them and you just cross them in the street. Heck when I was a kid growing up in the West Island, I played a lot of hockey. We use to go to tournaments and play in provincials all over the province and it made me laugh when we would get these French kids on the other team thinking that we didn't speak French saying "tete carre retourne chez toi". Was funny when I turned around and told them in French that I was at home, Canada is my home.

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Old
09-05-2012, 04:27 PM
  #118
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Originally Posted by beowulf View Post
This list of the 6 provinces that receive equalization payments and how much. See how Quebec receives more than then other 5 combined?

http://www.fin.gc.ca/fedprov/eqp-eng.asp





So yes Quebec receives more than it sends out.
Did you forget about about what we are sending to Ottawa?
Let me help you: we are sending, each year, 30 to 34 billions to Ottawa.

http://www.radio-canada.ca/nouvelles...l/assises.html

So Quebec is sending more to Ottawa than what it receives. Are you a member of the wild roses party btw?


Quote:
Originally Posted by beowulf View Post
So the fact that 2 french people for no apparent reason interjected themselves into the conversation of 4 English speaking in English is ok to you?

I've already said that the violence that happened last night was stupid and I hope the guy pays with a nice long time in jail.

The video I linked to is not uncommon. I've been witness to people like that very often, French people that think it is ok to give their opinion to you when you don't know them and you just cross them in the street. Heck when I was a kid growing up in the West Island, I played a lot of hockey. We use to go to tournaments and play in provincials all over the province and it made me laugh when we would get these French kids on the other team thinking that we didn't speak French saying "tete carre retourne chez toi". Was funny when I turned around and told them in French that I was at home, Canada is my home.
"So the fact that 2 french people for no apparent reason interjected themselves into the conversation of 4 English speaking in English is ok to you? ..."

Why would it be ok? Of course it is not. I just consider you posting this video at this point in our "debate" as an immature, unproductive and demagogic move. Idiots are everywhere and people, like you, should not draw general conclusions based on their actions. Imagine someone writing that the Anglos in Montreal are crazy racists based on recent event or when two anglo saxons men called me ****ing French when I walked in front of a bar in Montreal. It would be idiotic eh?


Last edited by Kjell Dahlin: 09-05-2012 at 04:34 PM.
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Old
09-05-2012, 04:31 PM
  #119
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Originally Posted by Kjell Dahlin View Post
It is working for the Scandinavians countries - and other small countries. I hope you realise that different nations have different priorities/values and there is more than one viable economic model?

The concept, as Jacques Parizeau called it, is called "une prospérité pépère". A good translation would be "a human and viable growth". Growth is indeed the objective but not at all costs – money is not the only descriptor of "quality of life".

As for the spin doctor remarks... you are the master. As already mentioned, Quebec is sending a lot more money to Ottawa than what we receive... but eh... keep on yelling like the wild roses party...
It's not a matter that Social Democracy doesn't work. Its a fine system of political economy. Its that social democracy has to exist within the economy that supports it.

Scandanavian countries do well by this, but if you look at how their government economics are structured, this isn't social democracy funded by debt, its funded by their own tax base.

Unless they are prepared for the consequences of long-term structural deficit in government finances, the simple math shows that in the long term either Quebec worker's productivity goes much higher and increases government resources, government spending goes down, or taxes go up considerably to make up the gap.

This doesn't need to happen right away, and unforced austerity measures during a global economic down turn aren't the best idea, but long term the bill has to be paid. The Scandanavians got it to work because they were prepared to pay the bills for what they wanted so to speak.

This isn't a problem exclusively of social democracy, we see the same things in America where stats want a libertarian tax system without the downsides of libertarian government, its a problem of structuring government finances. Nor is it entirely a problem of government deficit, small net long term deficits are viable so long as they are in line with growth of the tax base. But if your going to structure your economy around 2% growth the government finances must be structured around that as well.

Quebec can have human and viable growth, but excessively debt financed growth is in fact, not viable nor sustainable.

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09-05-2012, 04:33 PM
  #120
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Originally Posted by Kjell Dahlin View Post
Did you forget about about what we are sending to Ottawa?
Let me help you: we are sending, each year, 30 to 34 billions to Ottawa.

http://www.radio-canada.ca/nouvelles...l/assises.html

So Quebec is sending more to Ottawa than what it receives. Are you a member of the wild roses party btw?

"So the fact that 2 french people for no apparent reason interjected themselves into the conversation of 4 English speaking in English is ok to you? ..."

Why would it be ok? I just consider you posting this video at this point in our "debate" as an immature, unproductive and demagogic move. Idiots are everywhere and people, like you, should not draw general conclusions based on their actions. Imagine someone writing that the Anglos in Montreal are crazy racists based on recent event. It would be idiotic eh?
Oh, what a surprise, more irrelevant *********...

Why would you ask that question? What do you think that means?

"If you don't agree with me 100%, you're some radical right-wing nut job..."

One good thing, this thread clearly shows that all this squawking about Quebecois and their far superior social culture is 100% a complete fabrication.

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09-05-2012, 04:37 PM
  #121
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Originally Posted by Talks to Goalposts View Post
It's not a matter that Social Democracy doesn't work. Its a fine system of political economy. Its that social democracy has to exist within the economy that supports it.

Scandanavian countries do well by this, but if you look at how their government economics are structured, this isn't social democracy funded by debt, its funded by their own tax base.

Unless they are prepared for the consequences of long-term structural deficit in government finances, the simple math shows that in the long term either Quebec worker's productivity goes much higher and increases government resources, government spending goes down, or taxes go up considerably to make up the gap.

This doesn't need to happen right away, and unforced austerity measures during a global economic down turn aren't the best idea, but long term the bill has to be paid. The Scandanavians got it to work because they were prepared to pay the bills for what they wanted so to speak.

This isn't a problem exclusively of social democracy, we see the same things in America where stats want a libertarian tax system without the downsides of libertarian government, its a problem of structuring government finances. Nor is it entirely a problem of government deficit, small net long term deficits are viable so long as they are in line with growth of the tax base. But if your going to structure your economy around 2% growth the government finances must be structured around that as well.

Quebec can have human and viable growth, but excessively debt financed growth is in fact, not viable nor sustainable.
Sorry... I am no longer in the right frame of mind to react to a well structured and level-headed post. Maybe later!

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09-05-2012, 04:39 PM
  #122
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Originally Posted by Kjell Dahlin View Post
Did you forget about about what we are sending to Ottawa?
Let me help you: we are sending, each year, 30 to 34 billions to Ottawa.

http://www.radio-canada.ca/nouvelles...l/assises.html

So Quebec is sending more to Ottawa than what it receives. Are you a member of the wild roses party btw?
That money doesn't go to Ottawa and get dumped in a hole in the ground. It gets spent around the country in a manner largely proportionate to population but usually somewhat favouring the lower income provinces. Quebecers get back from Ottawa more than equalization payments. Equalization payments is just what the Government of Quebec gets to use on top of their own revenues.

On aggregate Quebec citizens get significantly more money from Ottawa than they give in taxes. The equalization payments is just one thing they get back and is fairly commensurate with how much more the Quebec citizen is getting than its giving. The actual total amount is probably somewhat more, if nothing else due to higher EI payouts do to lower employment rate than average but I've never seen a full accounting.

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09-05-2012, 04:45 PM
  #123
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Oh, what a surprise, more irrelevant *********...

Why would you ask that question? What do you think that means?

"If you don't agree with me 100%, you're some radical right-wing nut job..."

One good thing, this thread clearly shows that all this squawking about Quebecois and their far superior social culture is 100% a complete fabrication.
What I think that means? Are you really asking the question because I noticed that you already answered it for me!

As I already mentioned (try to keep up) that lunatic from Alberta (wildroses party) kept on yelling that Quebec strong social security net was paid by her Alberta (similar to bewolf's stand imo)... but she forgot to mention that in Alberta, there is a flat tax... in other words, you can make 20K a year or 700K a year: it makes no difference if you live in Alberta: everyone pays the same share!

Again: different nations imply different choices.

But eh... "Quebec = leech" seems to be a popular mantra in the rest of Canada... so carry on!

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09-05-2012, 04:57 PM
  #124
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kjell Dahlin View Post
Did you forget about about what we are sending to Ottawa?
Let me help you: we are sending, each year, 30 to 34 billions to Ottawa.

http://www.radio-canada.ca/nouvelles...l/assises.html

So Quebec is sending more to Ottawa than what it receives. Are you a member of the wild roses party btw?




"So the fact that 2 french people for no apparent reason interjected themselves into the conversation of 4 English speaking in English is ok to you? ..."

Why would it be ok? Of course it is not. I just consider you posting this video at this point in our "debate" as an immature, unproductive and demagogic move. Idiots are everywhere and people, like you, should not draw general conclusions based on their actions. Imagine someone writing that the Anglos in Montreal are crazy racists based on recent event or when two anglo saxons men called me ****ing French when I walked in front of a bar in Montreal. It would be idiotic eh?
You are blind to the fact Quebec receives much more than it sends in both services and actually money returned to the province. So the military is suppose to be free? Other services from the federal government are suppose to be free?

Also since when am I leader who makes use of popular prejudices and false claims and promises in order to gain power? I mean that is what a demagogue is...

Read further up in the thread and in the last 2 and it does talk about the way the minorities in Quebec are treated. You, and others, try and make it sound like English and other ,minorities have it good in Quebec, that it is easy street. Well it is not and they don't have it easy at all most of the time. They have to put up with French people that try and force them to speak French, even between themselves in a private conversation. So I would have to say the video has a lot to do with the debate that rages on in Quebec about language, supposed French culture and the treatment of minorities.

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09-05-2012, 04:58 PM
  #125
Ol' Jase
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Originally Posted by Kjell Dahlin View Post
What I think that means? Are you really asking the question because I noticed that you already answered it for me!

As I already mentioned (try to keep up) that lunatic from Alberta (wildroses party) kept on yelling that Quebec strong social security net was paid by her Alberta (similar to bewolf's stand imo)... but she forgot to mention that in Alberta, there is a flat tax... in other words, you can make 20K a year or 700K a year: it makes no difference if you live in Alberta: everyone pays the same share!

Again: different nations imply different choices.

But eh... "Quebec = leech" seems to be a popular mantra in the rest of Canada... so carry on!
Different nations, different choices, and the same tax pool to draw money from.

You really can't see the fallacy in this?

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