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Who will replace Bolland?

View Poll Results: Who will be the Hawks next shutdown center?
McNeil 1 3.13%
Danault 6 18.75%
Bolland 20 62.50%
Other 5 15.63%
Voters: 32. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
09-07-2012, 03:09 PM
  #51
Sarava
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Originally Posted by Blue Liner View Post
You don't think any of the core players that have been extended would've have gotten more money on the open market? I do.
Maybe, but a lot of that is in hindsight. Toews and Kane got 6.3 per 2 seasons in to their careers...that's rarely matched. Even Taylor Hall's new deal isn't 6.3 per. Keith when he was signed had at the time the largest total value contract for a defensemen in the NHL.

And Seabrook - half of us were blown away he got so much at the time. I remember many of us *hoping* the Hawks could get him to give a hometown discount for 4.5-5. Since then the contract looks better obviously.

And Sharp getting 6 per at his age?

On the open market where teams overpay, sure they'd have gotten more. But similar caliber stars for other teams were signing for less in many places like Detroit, Vancouver, etc.

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09-07-2012, 03:46 PM
  #52
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Sharp, Seabrook, and Oduya are all on fantastic contracts. Keith's cap hit is nothing compared to what team's would offer him today on the open market.

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09-07-2012, 03:53 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by Sarava View Post
Maybe, but a lot of that is in hindsight. Toews and Kane got 6.3 per 2 seasons in to their careers...that's rarely matched. Even Taylor Hall's new deal isn't 6.3 per. Keith when he was signed had at the time the largest total value contract for a defensemen in the NHL.

And Seabrook - half of us were blown away he got so much at the time. I remember many of us *hoping* the Hawks could get him to give a hometown discount for 4.5-5. Since then the contract looks better obviously.

And Sharp getting 6 per at his age?

On the open market where teams overpay, sure they'd have gotten more. But similar caliber stars for other teams were signing for less in many places like Detroit, Vancouver, etc.
Not only that but they were on their ELCs...so there was never really any "open market" - any team wanting to sign them to an offer sheet would have had to give up draft picks. The deals Toews/Kane have aren't bad...but they're not bargains, either.

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09-07-2012, 04:01 PM
  #54
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Originally Posted by hockeydoug View Post
The best 3c depends on the roster and circumstances. He's in a role, and I'm not sure he's in that same role on other rosters around the league. LA, Pit, and Det and a couple others had options I would have preferred at 3C. If Bolland is an elite 3c, then he should be a 2c like some of those others. His health and bad stretches in all zones and special teams keeps me from calling him the best at anything in the game.

While he has played with weak players up front, he's had one of the best defensive pairs in the league on the ice with him most of the time too. He's also been playing against some defensively challenged units against him too the last couple seasons, so I think the production thing is largely a wash unless he went to the first line.

He is one of the best defensive players on the Hawks, no question about it. My larger point is that his value in a trade is higher than his value on the roster the last 2 years and that may hold true again at some point later this year or next offseason. This year they have to keep him. I'll always want him for the postseason, but I've been very indifferent about how badly I wanted him on the roster during the regular season.

Bolland cannot be replaced, he is a very high quality player, I hope my criticism of him is not taken the wrong way. His negatives are often offset because of his playoff and big game performances. All that said, I think there are scenarios where the Hawks become much better and more likely to win games by trading him even knowing he can't be replaced when he's 100% and motivated. He's very easy to replace when he's not in a big game or completely healthy.

Since they can't trade him (without getting a better center back) right now, this is just spinning wheels I guess.
I disagree with just about everything in this post.

What does Bolland's health have to do with anything? Is Crosby not the best player in the NHL despite his injuries? There is no 3rd line center better than Dave Bolland. There just isn't. Jordan Staal is now a 1st line center and Ryan O'Rielly is a 1st/2nd line center as well. Bolland is the best in the NHL as of right now.

The production thing has a lot of merit. He is playing only 16:30 a game in the regular season and those minutes come with Bryan Bickell and Michael Frolik until finally Shaw stepped up and gave him a little bit of help. Those guys are basically 4th line players. Now factor in that Coach Q is putting Bolland against the best players of the other team. Bolland along with usually 2 scrubs, are going against, trying to shut down the opponents best players. The fact that he even does an "okay" job is just incredible IMO. He starts like 70% of the time in the defensive zone for christ sake. By far the most on the Blackhawks...how is he supposed to provide much offense? He plays with scrubs, he starts in the defensive zone most the game and he plays against the best players. Not to mention playing like 4 whole minutes a game less than Toews, Sharp, ect.

Bolland is so ridiculously under-appreciated it is sickening. He takes on the 1st line of the other team and does one hell of a job. He is probably the Blackhawks' player that steps his game up the most in the playoffs.

Blackhawks playoff career:
Players A: 49 games, 14 goals, 23 assists, 37 points, +11 (0.755 PPG)
Player B:52 games, 22 goals, 17 assists, 39 points, +8 (0.750 PPG)
Player C: 32 games, 5 goals, 16 assists, 21 points, +10 (0.656 PPG)

Who is who? Well, Dave Bolland is the one with the highest PPG in the playoffs...player A. The player B is Patrick Sharp and the last one is Marian Hossa. So lets trade overpaid Player A, Dave Bolland at 3.1 mil and keep 5.9 mil Player B and 5.5 mil Player C(with like 10 years left).

Incredible. Please explain how the Hawks' become better by trading him? What player are we going to get that is going to go against the top line with 2 scrubs and do well against them, thus allowing our top 6 players to excel? Or should I say, allow our top 6 players to excel a little less than Bolland...who actually shows up in the playoffs.

Bolland has more value to the Hawks than any team in the NHL. I'm not sure what kind of trade you are thinking of but how many trades make the team better now and in the future? Sounds like baseless speculation on your part. Our team becomes a joke without Dave Bolland in the bottom 6. People already say that we lost all our depth so what happens when we loose the best talent that is carrying our bottom 6? Yuck. I don't even want to imagine it.

If Phillip Danault or Marcus Kruger become better or as good as Dave Bolland...fine. I really doubt that will happen however. If they become good, but not as good as Dave Bolland then they can be traded or maybe play on the 2nd line. Danault has played wing though as well...I'd love to see a decent player actually play WITH Dave Bolland. Might be too much to ask. He did in 2010 and put up almost 50 points. This is all contingent on Bolland signing a good contract though. Brad Marchand just signed for 4 years, 4.5 mil per...hmm...makes the contract Bolland is on now look like a steal.

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Old
09-07-2012, 04:12 PM
  #55
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Not only that but they were on their ELCs...so there was never really any "open market" - any team wanting to sign them to an offer sheet would have had to give up draft picks. The deals Toews/Kane have aren't bad...but they're not bargains, either.
Expecting bargain contracts for franchise players (let alone faces of a major franchise) entering the prime of their careers is foolish and would be foolish for them to accept, quite honestly. Not saying that to you, personally, just in general. I'll take "not bad" contracts for players like this every day of the week and not think twice about it.

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09-07-2012, 04:26 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by xX Hot Fuss View Post
Sharp, Seabrook, and Oduya are all on fantastic contracts. Keith's cap hit is nothing compared to what team's would offer him today on the open market.
I agree with all of this.

Not necessarily at the time he signed in November, but if Keith had gone to the UFA market in summer of 2010, he still would've ended up with a lifetime contract. Probably for a cap hit north of $6M.

You could argue whether or not he's worth that today, but after the year he had in 2010, he absolutely was.


Last edited by Sevanston: 09-07-2012 at 04:33 PM.
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Old
09-07-2012, 04:31 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by Blue Liner View Post
Expecting bargain contracts for franchise players (let alone faces of a major franchise) entering the prime of their careers is foolish and would be foolish for them to accept, quite honestly. Not saying that to you, personally, just in general. I'll take "not bad" contracts for players like this every day of the week and not think twice about it.
I agree with you - players like that aren't available on the cheap. I just meant that we didn't get a massive steal or anything.

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Old
09-07-2012, 05:33 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by xX Hot Fuss View Post
Sharp, Seabrook, and Oduya are all on fantastic contracts. Keith's cap hit is nothing compared to what team's would offer him today on the open market.


Seriously?

One of the weakest/worst defenders in NHL and your happy not only is he taking up a roster spot that could have been used to actually improve the team but he wastes that roster at a cost of 3.3M

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09-07-2012, 05:58 PM
  #59
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Originally Posted by Blackhawkswincup View Post


Seriously?

One of the weakest/worst defenders in NHL and your happy not only is he taking up a roster spot that could have been used to actually improve the team but he wastes that roster at a cost of 3.3M
Yep. I second that. IMO, the worst 2 decisions by Stan to date were the trading for JO and then signing him to a brutal contract.

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09-07-2012, 06:42 PM
  #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blackhawkswincup View Post


Seriously?

One of the weakest/worst defenders in NHL and your happy not only is he taking up a roster spot that could have been used to actually improve the team but he wastes that roster at a cost of 3.3M
Oduya is far from one of the "worst defenders in NHL". This team has four #4 defenseman, and if coached properly has the talent to be among the best defenses in the league.

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09-07-2012, 06:56 PM
  #61
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/\ Defensively, he was inept in last years playoffs. If he lets players freewheel in our zone like he did then, then yes he is one of the worst defenders in the league. Oduya was the last thing this team needed to compliment it's back end and now we have to live with it.

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09-07-2012, 08:55 PM
  #62
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Yep. I second that. IMO, the worst 2 decisions by Stan to date were the trading for JO and then signing him to a brutal contract.
No Oduya means our D core looks like this...

Keith-Seabrook
Hjalmarsson-Leddy
Brookbank-Olsen/Healthy Montador (who knows if that will even happen).

Oduya could have EASILY got $4.25+. Look at what Wideman and Carle got, those guys are at best #4's. Oduya took a discount to stay here and the hawks have defensive depth because of it.

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09-07-2012, 09:46 PM
  #63
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If we're judging players based on last years playoffs, Patrick Sharp should be moved immediately.

Oduya didn't have a good week. That doesn't make him a bad hockey player.

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09-07-2012, 09:47 PM
  #64
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What does Bolland's health have to do with anything? Is Crosby not the best player in the NHL despite his injuries? There is no 3rd line center better than Dave Bolland.
I'm not going to get into the significance of the 3C position, it's important, but I don't think it's more important than the top 2 lines and top 2 pairs.

Health has quite a bit to do to determine what a player is worth. Health is the reason Saad fell to the Hawks and health is a reason they didn't sign Salo or Gagne. He was playing with a bad foot for an extensive stretch last year and it really showed. 3 years in a row with a number of random injuries that cause him to miss time. The healing doesn't occur any quicker as he hits his late 20s.
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Originally Posted by RomersWorld View Post
Please explain how the Hawks' become better by trading him? What player are we going to get that is going to go against the top line with 2 scrubs and do well against them, thus allowing our top 6 players to excel? Or should I say, allow our top 6 players to excel a little less than Bolland...who actually shows up in the playoffs.
I thought the time to trade him was 2 years ago or last year to facilitate the rebuild and allowing the Hawks to keep some decent depth. I thought he had the most value in a trade besides Byfuglien. I like Bolland so I wasn't upset they kept him but I thought trading him allows them to keep another player or two and add to the prospect pool. Bolland played great for 4 games that postseason, but again, fluky or not, he was gone for 3 of them because of health (damn you Kubina).
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Originally Posted by RomersWorld View Post
Bolland has more value to the Hawks than any team in the NHL. I'm not sure what kind of trade you are thinking of but how many trades make the team better now and in the future?
They can't trade him now unless it's for the one of the 2c or 3d positions. I'm against trading him right now as things stand with what we know but given the market for centers the last 2 years, I'm not convinced there isn't an offer available that makes the Hawks better. I have no rumors to reference, but I think we all agree that he has very strong potential trade value when healthy.
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Sounds like baseless speculation on your part. Our team becomes a joke without Dave Bolland in the bottom 6. People already say that we lost all our depth so what happens when we loose the best talent that is carrying our bottom 6? Yuck. I don't even want to imagine it.
Bolland has been missing for 70 games the last 3 years and he's been marginally healthy for another 40 or so on top of that and the Hawks haven't been a joke other than the brief stretches and the beginnning of the 2011 season when Bolland was there. He's an excellent role player, maybe/likely among the best role players, but he's still a role player, not a core player in my opinion. We'll agree to disagree. I love having him there in a big game but I'm not so sure he's going to be more likely to be there than assets he could be traded for. I'm not pushing for a trade but I'm arguing against keeping him regardless since it's likely his market value is greater than his actual worth(because I don't consider him a legitimate 2c).
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Originally Posted by RomersWorld View Post
If Phillip Danault or Marcus Kruger become better or as good as Dave Bolland...fine. I really doubt that will happen however. If they become good, but not as good as Dave Bolland then they can be traded or maybe play on the 2nd line. Danault has played wing though as well...I'd love to see a decent player actually play WITH Dave Bolland. Might be too much to ask. He did in 2010 and put up almost 50 points. This is all contingent on Bolland signing a good contract though. Brad Marchand just signed for 4 years, 4.5 mil per...hmm...makes the contract Bolland is on now look like a steal.
The Bolland contract is nice now, but the overpayment hurt when it mattered most. I don't expect anybody to replace Bolland, especially in the postseason. Since the Hawks haven't done anything special in the standings or in the postseason for two years now, I'm surprised there is so much certainty from so many about him being best for the club the last couple years.
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Originally Posted by RomersWorld View Post
He takes on the 1st line of the other team and does one hell of a job. He is probably the Blackhawks' player that steps his game up the most in the playoffs.

Blackhawks playoff career:
Players A: 49 games, 14 goals, 23 assists, 37 points, +11 (0.755 PPG)
Player B:52 games, 22 goals, 17 assists, 39 points, +8 (0.750 PPG)
Player C: 32 games, 5 goals, 16 assists, 21 points, +10 (0.656 PPG)

Who is who? Well, Dave Bolland is the one with the highest PPG in the playoffs...player A. The player B is Patrick Sharp and the last one is Marian Hossa. So lets trade overpaid Player A, Dave Bolland at 3.1 mil and keep 5.9 mil Player B and 5.5 mil Player C(with like 10 years left).
I didn't say to trade him now. Sharp and Hossa are core players and in a much different category that Bolland. Because of Bolland's cap hit, he's the most likely to return more than he's worth in my opinion, and his skill set is the easiest one to replace of the 3.

I don't think anybody has spoke ill of Bolland's overall postseason play, and that's the single biggest reason why I'm somewhat indifferent about keeping him around as opposed to wanting to see him traded everyday. If it wasn't for his postseason play, I don't think he would still be around anyway as I'm confident plenty of gms has poked around to find out what he would cost in a trade the last 2 years.

Unless there is a major move or injury issues, I don't see myself demanding for him to be traded this year but I may look for him to be dealt at the end of this year. If he can be traded to land a real 2C or 3D in a package, I'll be in support of it. I would rather take a good gamble on the top lines and top pairs than the 3rd line.

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09-07-2012, 09:49 PM
  #65
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If we're judging players based on last years playoffs, Patrick Sharp should be moved immediately.

Oduya didn't have a good week. That doesn't make him a bad hockey player.
I agree with these thoughts.

Oduya may not work out well, but he was still signed for much less than market value and that offsets part of the risk.

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09-07-2012, 10:33 PM
  #66
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Oduya wasnt even our 2nd worst dman in the playoffs. That goes to Leddy and Hjalmarsson.

And to say Oduya didn't improve the team is a joke, we went like 12-3-4 with him in the line up after the TD. He would of got 4mil in free agency, he took a discount.

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09-07-2012, 11:02 PM
  #67
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1. Oduya's contract comes off the books when we have to sign Toews and Kane. He took a discount to stay here and just because he had an awful, AWFUL 1st round doesn't negate the fact that he was playing like a top 4 dman since the day we acquired him. The Hawks didn't lose to PHX because of Oduya.

2. Why do people bring up future playoff performances with Bolland? "Oh we had 2 first round exits with Bolland so it doesn't really matter that much anyway". False. The Hawks without Bolland are barely a playoff team, if not a 10 or 11 seed. I expect to argue his value with Rangers fans who wouldn't trade Boyle for him, but i really can't believe that i have to argue for this dude's value to our team on the Hawks board. It really is pathetic how little appreciation this guy gets. No, our 3C is not going to put up 50-60 points every year playing with AHLers and prospects while shutting down team's best lines.

3. How awesome would it be if McNeil or Danault turn out to be really good shutdown centers and we can bump Bolland up to 2C???

Saad-Toews-Hossa
Sharp-Bolland-Kane
Stalberg-McNeil/Danault-Shaw

...yes please

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09-08-2012, 07:56 AM
  #68
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Oduya wasnt even our 2nd worst dman in the playoffs. That goes to Leddy and Hjalmarsson.

And to say Oduya didn't improve the team is a joke, we went like 12-3-4 with him in the line up after the TD. He would of got 4mil in free agency, he took a discount.
I'm an Oduya defender, but Hjalmarsson was better than him. If we're ranking players who played it was (from best to worst):

Seabrook

Keith
Hjalmarsson

Oduya
Leddy
Olsen

O'Donnell

Oduya wasn't good in that series.. but I can't comprehend why the coaching staff kept Oduya and Leddy together - for basically the entire series - when they were both clearly struggling, as a pair and individually. Oduya and Leddy were bad.. but I think they would have been fine had they been split up after the first 3 games, if not sooner.

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09-08-2012, 07:57 AM
  #69
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Oduya on a fantastic contract. That's a good one. Just because some team would have unwisely paid him more does not make it a good contract.

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09-08-2012, 07:59 AM
  #70
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Originally Posted by xX Hot Fuss View Post
1. Oduya's contract comes off the books when we have to sign Toews and Kane. He took a discount to stay here and just because he had an awful, AWFUL 1st round doesn't negate the fact that he was playing like a top 4 dman since the day we acquired him. The Hawks didn't lose to PHX because of Oduya.

2. Why do people bring up future playoff performances with Bolland? "Oh we had 2 first round exits with Bolland so it doesn't really matter that much anyway". False. The Hawks without Bolland are barely a playoff team, if not a 10 or 11 seed. I expect to argue his value with Rangers fans who wouldn't trade Boyle for him, but i really can't believe that i have to argue for this dude's value to our team on the Hawks board. It really is pathetic how little appreciation this guy gets. No, our 3C is not going to put up 50-60 points every year playing with AHLers and prospects while shutting down team's best lines.

3. How awesome would it be if McNeil or Danault turn out to be really good shutdown centers and we can bump Bolland up to 2C???

Saad-Toews-Hossa
Sharp-Bolland-Kane
Stalberg-McNeil/Danault-Shaw

...yes please
Ehh, Bolland wasn't all that great last year. In the regular season or the playoffs. I'm not saying he should be traded or that I want him too, but he just wasn't very good last year.

How awesome would it be if McNeill and Danault developed into top-6 quality players/excellent third liners and Teravainen made the jump?

Saad - Toews - Kane
Sharp - Teravainen - Hossa
Danault - Bolland - McNeill
Smith - Shaw - Beach

Yes please.

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09-08-2012, 09:56 AM
  #71
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Phoenix wasn't a great matchup for a team like ours. Veteran, physical, defensive minded team. They beat us pretty good in the regular season too. Players like Oduya definitely aren't made for a series like that and that's where you need your big guns to step up. Oduya is obviously not an All Star or anything but he's a solid Defenseman who gave a good spark to the team once he was brought in.

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09-08-2012, 12:18 PM
  #72
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Yep.. and it's not a slight on how talented/good the team is/was, they just stuggle against the Phoenix's/Nashville's. You'd think the coaching staff would be able to adjust, but that hasn't realy been the case. As has been said before, the 2010 team was a Martin Erat lapse in judgement away from being down 3-2 and heading back to Nashville on the brink of elimination.

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09-08-2012, 12:52 PM
  #73
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Originally Posted by BobbyJet View Post
/\ Defensively, he was inept in last years playoffs. If he lets players freewheel in our zone like he did then, then yes he is one of the worst defenders in the league. Oduya was the last thing this team needed to compliment it's back end and now we have to live with it.
But that's not Oduya's fault. He's a valuable player that signed a deal under what the market would have paid him.

Montador should have never been signed. He's redundant on this team, and I'm one of his biggest supporters.

Keith - Seabrook
Leddy - Hammer
Oduya - Brookbank

This gives every pairing an offensive and stay at home guy. Montador and Olsen are wild cards in that they can look like either from game to game. Coupled with piss poor coaching and pairings - Oduya and Leddy? Really? - put players in a position to fail.

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09-08-2012, 12:54 PM
  #74
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Originally Posted by Blue Liner View Post
Expecting bargain contracts for franchise players (let alone faces of a major franchise) entering the prime of their careers is foolish and would be foolish for them to accept, quite honestly. Not saying that to you, personally, just in general. I'll take "not bad" contracts for players like this every day of the week and not think twice about it.
You never regret paying premier players premier money. It's the Frolik/Olesz's of the world making impact complimentary piece money for extra forward production that sinks a team.

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09-08-2012, 04:28 PM
  #75
BobbyJet
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DisgruntledHawkFan View Post
But that's not Oduya's fault. He's a valuable player that signed a deal under what the market would have paid him.

Montador should have never been signed. He's redundant on this team, and I'm one of his biggest supporters.

Keith - Seabrook
Leddy - Hammer
Oduya - Brookbank

This gives every pairing an offensive and stay at home guy. Montador and Olsen are wild cards in that they can look like either from game to game. Coupled with piss poor coaching and pairings - Oduya and Leddy? Really? - put players in a position to fail.
I agree. But what the hell was Stan thinking? Surely he and Q have more hockey smarts then they have shown. Really makes me wonder about our entire management team ... and if Stan and Q even talk.

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