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Have we ever had a truly generational goalie?

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Old
09-05-2012, 11:53 PM
  #1
Vankiller Whale
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Have we ever had a truly generational goalie?

Sure there have been goalies like Roy and Hasek, but I mean truly generational, like Gretzky/Orr. These guys could put up double the points what a player generally considered elite would put up. Why haven't we seen a goalie stand out head and shoulders over what is generally considered elite? Is it even possible to do? For a goalie to have, say several
.950 sv% seasons? Is the goaltending position too unpredictable for someone to be that good, ever?

Or could the Gretzky/Orr of goalies one day appear in the NHL?

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09-06-2012, 12:00 AM
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tarheelhockey
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At his best, Hasek was at that level. I've never seen anything like his ability to completely determine the outcome of the game on his own.

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09-06-2012, 12:00 AM
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Hasek, yeah.

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09-06-2012, 12:02 AM
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Hasek won two Harts. Nevermind goalies, name me some players who have won two Hart trophies.

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09-06-2012, 12:04 AM
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It's such a shame that Buffalo ownership didn't stock those Hasek teams with a little more talent. Such a waste. Buffalo fans really suffered from such crappy ownership. Jerks!

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09-06-2012, 12:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by I Hate Jay Feaster View Post
Hasek won two Harts. Nevermind goalies, name me some players who have won two Hart trophies.
Gretzky won 7. If I were to go by HF ratings, I'd give Hasek a 9.5, but not truly generational, imo.

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09-06-2012, 12:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
Gretzky won 7. If I were to go by HF ratings, I'd give Hasek a 9.5, but not truly generational, imo.
Actually Gretzky won 9, but it's not even fair to bring that into the discussion. Gretzky wasn't generational, he was eternal. A 10 on HF wouldn't be fit to describe the numbers he put up.

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09-06-2012, 12:15 AM
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Hasek for sure. He was on a whole different level than everybody (including Roy and Brodeur).

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09-06-2012, 12:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
Gretzky won 7. If I were to go by HF ratings, I'd give Hasek a 9.5, but not truly generational, imo.
Nonetheless, Hasek is still in pretty great company.

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09-06-2012, 12:17 AM
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At his best, Hasek was the best in the world.

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09-06-2012, 12:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by I Hate Jay Feaster View Post
Hasek won two Harts. Nevermind goalies, name me some players who have won two Hart trophies.
Off the top of my head...

Alexander Ovechkin, Mark Messier, Wayne Gretzky, Gordie Howe, Mario Lemeuix, Bobby Orr, Eddie Shore all have at least two

And I'm pretty sure Bobby Hull, and Bobbly Clarke have at least two. Did Joe Thornton win two as well?

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09-06-2012, 12:17 AM
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Originally Posted by Machinehead View Post
Actually Gretzky won 9, but it's not even fair to bring that into the discussion. Gretzky wasn't generational, he was eternal. A 10 on HF wouldn't be fit to describe the numbers he put up.
Brain fart, my bad.

Well, I would put Orr and Gretzky in the same category, whether you call it generational or eternal. Personally I would rank players like Crosby, Lidstrom, and Hasek a 9.5, while Gretzky and Orr would be a 10.

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09-06-2012, 12:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hero View Post
Off the top of my head...

Alexander Ovechkin, Mark Messier, Wayne Gretzky, Gordie Howe, Mario Lemeuix, Bobby Orr, Eddie Shore all have at least two

And I'm pretty sure Bobby Hull, and Bobbly Clarke have at least two. Did Joe Thornton win two as well?
No, Joe Thornton was a nominee in 06-07 IIRC. But you would agree that those men are some of the best to ever play and Hasek, at his best, was right there with them?

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09-06-2012, 12:22 AM
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I'll take St. Patrick's...

3 Conn Smythes
4 Stanley Cups

...over everything Hasek won.

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09-06-2012, 12:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hero View Post
Off the top of my head...

Alexander Ovechkin, Mark Messier, Wayne Gretzky, Gordie Howe, Mario Lemeuix, Bobby Orr, Eddie Shore all have at least two

And I'm pretty sure Bobby Hull, and Bobbly Clarke have at least two. Did Joe Thornton win two as well?
Well you just proved his point. There's not a guy you just mentioned who isn't a 1st ballot hall of famer.

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09-06-2012, 12:22 AM
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If you cant see Hasek as generational I suggest you see some clips and games. I would honestly even consider Hasek the eternal goalie of hockey, Lemeuix/Howe/Orr the eternal skater (Gretzkys reputation is largely a product of looking at a record book, rather than his actual ability). I like the thought lol.


If you dont think we've had a generational goalie than I guess you ought to find better words to suit your perception of caliber -.-

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09-06-2012, 12:23 AM
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The generational goalie question is pointless but Hasek/Roy/Brodeur are the only three goalies I can think of (in the past 20 yrs at least) who were elite starters for most of their career. Most guys only stay at that level for maybe 7 or 8 yrs max.

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09-06-2012, 12:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by I Hate Jay Feaster View Post
No, Joe Thornton was a nominee in 06-07 IIRC. But you would agree that those men are some of the best to ever play and Hasek, at his best, was right there with them?
There's no doubt Hasek was an excellent player, but I guess it depends on how one defines the word generational. I guess my question can basically be boiled down to "Will there ever be a goalie who stands head and shoulders over the rest like Gretzky/Orr?" For example, by putting up multiple .950 sv%.

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09-06-2012, 12:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
Brain fart, my bad.

Well, I would put Orr and Gretzky in the same category, whether you call it generational or eternal. Personally I would rank players like Crosby, Lidstrom, and Hasek a 9.5, while Gretzky and Orr would be a 10.
So you are basically saying there hasn't been a generational player in about two generations?

Think about that.

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09-06-2012, 12:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tarheelhockey View Post
So you are basically saying there hasn't been a generational player in about two generations?

Think about that.
Orr, Gretzky, and Lemieux were 3 players I would consider generational.

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09-06-2012, 12:30 AM
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Hart trophies aren't exactly a good measure for goaltenders, there's obviously a HUGE bias towards point scorers. It took Orr breaking the meaning of being a defensemen for him to be awarded three of them.

Rating goalies is also tricky because their stats fluctuate quite wildly with respect to their peers and more than anyone else, they're the most affected by team play. So it's pretty difficult to find a goalie who's not only so far above everyone else but also plays in an airtight defensive system that is consistent for many seasons and can play 70+ games per season.

You can't put a Kyle Wellwood in an offense-oriented team (say, Pittsburgh) and expect him to pot 100 points even if he's playing with Crosby and/or Malkin. You can however place a well, Brian Elliot behind a great defensive system and expect him to post great stats more often than not.

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09-06-2012, 12:32 AM
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tarheelhockey
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
Orr, Gretzky, and Lemieux were 3 players I would consider generational.
Again -- you're saying that the three generational careers in the century-old NHL took place within a 20-year timeframe. Two of them at the exact same time.

Consider the root of the word "generational".

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09-06-2012, 12:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tarheelhockey View Post
Again -- you're saying that the three generational careers in the century-old NHL took place within a 20-year timeframe. Two of them at the exact same time.

Consider the root of the word "generational".
It's not impossible to have two generational players at the same time. Also, perhaps Maurice Richard or some other star from the oldies could be considered generational, although I don't know enough about them to say.

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09-06-2012, 01:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
It's not impossible to have two generational players at the same time.
I agree. Wayne and Mario proved that.

Quote:
Also, perhaps Maurice Richard or some other star from the oldies could be considered generational, although I don't know enough about them to say.
I think if you actually went back and picked 1-2 players per generation, you'd find that a goalie or two would be included.

As far as the .950 save percentage, you have to keep in mind that goalie stats change dramatically as scoring levels change. Only in the past 10 years has it been remotely possible for a goalie to stop 95% of the shots he sees (unless you want to go all the way back to the 1920s, and even then it's unlikely that anyone did it). Patrick Roy's .912 in 1989-90 might not be a special number to us, but it was 7 points higher than the next guy. 7 points is a massive gap... similar to what Tim Thomas did two years ago. And it's not like Roy was a short career guy like Thomas. He won not just multiple Cups, but multiple Smythes, won more games than any other goalie until Brodeur. Killed it in the playoffs for three completely different teams in three completely different eras. And as good as he was, the majority of people think that a prime Hasek was even better. I'd take either of them as "generational" over anyone else between Mario and Crosby.

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09-06-2012, 01:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VinnyC View Post
Hart trophies aren't exactly a good measure for goaltenders, there's obviously a HUGE bias towards point scorers. It took Orr breaking the meaning of being a defensemen for him to be awarded three of them.

Rating goalies is also tricky because their stats fluctuate quite wildly with respect to their peers and more than anyone else, they're the most affected by team play. So it's pretty difficult to find a goalie who's not only so far above everyone else but also plays in an airtight defensive system that is consistent for many seasons and can play 70+ games per season.

You can't put a Kyle Wellwood in an offense-oriented team (say, Pittsburgh) and expect him to pot 100 points even if he's playing with Crosby and/or Malkin. You can however place a well, Brian Elliot behind a great defensive system and expect him to post great stats more often than not.
So what you are saying is it is really, really, really hard for goalies to win it. And Hasek has 2.

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