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Old
09-13-2012, 03:50 PM
  #51
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Originally Posted by newfy View Post
Well like I said, Samuellson has pretty much hit 50 every year since he left the wings. Two 50 point seasons and one on pace for 47. Hes only been gone 3 seasons so there you go.

And all you guys can keep saying Kindl is better than Kindl and keep telling yourself that, even though one has shown he can put up around 30 points a year and play over 20 mins a game and play in osst situations.

The other one has the wings looking to sign Coliacovo because they have no trust in his ability whatsoever because he cant be relied on yet

The coaches, management and most people with common sense agree that Quincey is better but there will always be a couple people who love the less effective guys (Hudler, Kindl) and its hilarious to see them argue about it when the proof is in the pudding
I;ve already demonstrated, over and over, the flaws in Quincey's game.

His icetime and development came because he played on the worst defensive teams in the NHL.

Last year, Quincey had 14 even strength points in 72 games in 17 minutes a game
Kindl had 12 in 55 games in 13 minutes a game.

Kindl is a better producer than Quincey.

Quincey was so unimportant to Colorado that they benched him at midseason and traded him for a 3rd/4th liner with lots of issues.

If he was truly a legit top 4 defenseman who could play in all situations, why in the hell would Colorado trade him?

They wouldn't, obviously.

Can you ever imagine the Red Wings trading a top 4 defenseman who plays PP and PK for a 3rd/4thliner? Hell no.


Quincey's even strength production would rank 5th on Colorado, behind offensive giants like Shane O'Brien. He had only a single point more than Stephan Elliot, who played just 13 games.

And offense is supposed to be Q's specialty.

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09-13-2012, 06:04 PM
  #52
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3rd/4th line players don't average nearly 16 minutes a game of ice time and .56 points a game (good for 128th among qualified forwards) the last 3 seasons. All before said player turned 25 years of age. Quincey wasn't traded for some scrub. He was traded for a pretty good, young forward.

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09-14-2012, 11:34 AM
  #53
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I hope Kindl gets traded to a team where he can play more than 20-30 games this year. Might as well let him get his shot, it will never happen with the Wings.

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09-14-2012, 11:45 AM
  #54
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Originally Posted by Frk It View Post
I hope Kindl gets traded to a team where he can play more than 20-30 games this year. Might as well let him get his shot, it will never happen with the Wings.
He played 55 games last year and that should really only go up this year.

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09-14-2012, 12:24 PM
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He played 55 games last year and that should really only go up this year.
I underestimated the amount of games he will play, I should have said he needs to go to a team where he will be more than a # 7 D. If you never have your role expanded, you will never grow as a player. He has been the #7 D on Detroit for 3 years. If we are not willing to throw him into a full time role, and deal with the growing pains, it would be better to let him go to a team where he is not going to be a healthy scratch so often, or pulled the first time he makes a mistake. Holland doesn't want to do that, because he doesn't want to be responsible for 2 Kyle Quincey's, but it is bound to happen eventually.

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09-14-2012, 12:26 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by Captain Bob View Post
I;ve already demonstrated, over and over, the flaws in Quincey's game.

His icetime and development came because he played on the worst defensive teams in the NHL.

Last year, Quincey had 14 even strength points in 72 games in 17 minutes a game
Kindl had 12 in 55 games in 13 minutes a game.

Kindl is a better producer than Quincey.

Quincey was so unimportant to Colorado that they benched him at midseason and traded him for a 3rd/4th liner with lots of issues.

If he was truly a legit top 4 defenseman who could play in all situations, why in the hell would Colorado trade him?

They wouldn't, obviously.

Can you ever imagine the Red Wings trading a top 4 defenseman who plays PP and PK for a 3rd/4thliner? Hell no.


Quincey's even strength production would rank 5th on Colorado, behind offensive giants like Shane O'Brien. He had only a single point more than Stephan Elliot, who played just 13 games.

And offense is supposed to be Q's specialty.
He was traded for one of the better agitators in the league who can actually play in a top 6. At the age of 25 hes already had a 46 point season and been on pace for around 40 a year ever since. At 25, while being a good fighter and one of the leagues best agitators thats not a bad player.


And you keep saying youve demonstrated hes better by saying even strength point production. Whoop dee doo, Kindl plain and simple cant defend like he should by now and plays 14 miins a game because of it. He doesnt use his size either. Its all ifs with your argument, fact of the matter is the coach and gm who watch them all the time have one of these guys playing 7 more minutes a game then the other one

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09-14-2012, 12:41 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by newfy View Post
He was traded for one of the better agitators in the league who can actually play in a top 6. At the age of 25 hes already had a 46 point season and been on pace for around 40 a year ever since. At 25, while being a good fighter and one of the leagues best agitators thats not a bad player.


And you keep saying youve demonstrated hes better by saying even strength point production. Whoop dee doo, Kindl plain and simple cant defend like he should by now and plays 14 miins a game because of it. He doesnt use his size either. Its all ifs with your argument, fact of the matter is the coach and gm who watch them all the time have one of these guys playing 7 more minutes a game then the other one
Haha.
Kindl actually managed to get games in Detroit uniform during the regular season -- something the Wings never thought Quincey was worthy of when they waived him

I am confident, when all is said and done, that it will be JK who has the better NHL career.


Here's what Quincey is:
He's a defenseman who skates well, has a hard shot.

But he has a low hockey IQ at both ends of the ice, takes dangerous chances, even on the powerplay, has bad defensive positioning and he takes an awful lot of stupid penalties. While plays somewhat chippy, he does not play tough. He's viewed as an offensive defenseman, but that's primarily because he has played PP on teams with untalented defense. (Like Detroit, all of the sudden).

I see Kindl somewhat the same, but he plays even less tough. However, I think he has a much better IQ at both ends of the ice. He makes careless mistakes, but they're not usually because of a poor hockey IQ. His shot may not be as hard as Quincey's, but I think it's the kind of shot that generates rebounds.


That's why even strength points matters. If Quincey was putting up tons of points, you could say he's a PP specialist. But he's not. He's putting up respectable point totals - and they are built almost exclusively on the PP>

You want to compare Kindl to Q, compare apples to apples
The only thing you can compare them in is even-strength production

Or you could compare the Red Wings' record when Kindl was in the lineup vs when Quincey was in the lineup - but given the injury status of the Wings, that wouldn't be fair to Q


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09-14-2012, 12:52 PM
  #58
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He played 55 games last year and that should really only go up this year.
If the Wings signed CC; he probably starts the season as the #7 defenseman -- if there's a season

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09-14-2012, 02:49 PM
  #59
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Originally Posted by Captain Bob View Post
Haha.
Kindl actually managed to get games in Detroit uniform during the regular season -- something the Wings never thought Quincey was worthy of when they waived him


That's why even strength points matters. If Quincey was putting up tons of points, you could say he's a PP specialist. But he's not. He's putting up respectable point totals - and they are built almost exclusively on the PP>

You want to compare Kindl to Q, compare apples to apples
The only thing you can compare them in is even-strength production

Or you could compare the Red Wings' record when Kindl was in the lineup vs when Quincey was in the lineup - but given the injury status of the Wings, that wouldn't be fair to Q
Quincey didnt make the wings when they had Lidstrom, Stuart, Chelios, Kronwall and when Lilja was still playing well.

Kindl cant crack the top 6 with Kronwall as the number 1 guy and the second best probably Ian White. HUGE difference.

And you can only compare even strength production? You know why you can only compare that? Because Quincey plays short handed and gets PP time while Kindl doesnt. Babcock doesnt just draw names out of a hat for who gets ice time. He puts the players who play the role better into that spot. Quincey is better short handed and on the PP.

Kindl only gets sheltered minutes, playing te other teams worst players, that probably results in a bloated even strength production and doesnt allow you to see him make as many giveaways and mistakes

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09-14-2012, 03:44 PM
  #60
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Originally Posted by newfy View Post
Quincey didnt make the wings when they had Lidstrom, Stuart, Chelios, Kronwall and when Lilja was still playing well.

Kindl cant crack the top 6 with Kronwall as the number 1 guy and the second best probably Ian White. HUGE difference.

And you can only compare even strength production? You know why you can only compare that? Because Quincey plays short handed and gets PP time while Kindl doesnt. Babcock doesnt just draw names out of a hat for who gets ice time. He puts the players who play the role better into that spot. Quincey is better short handed and on the PP.

Kindl only gets sheltered minutes, playing te other teams worst players, that probably results in a bloated even strength production and doesnt allow you to see him make as many giveaways and mistakes
The Wings kept Lebda, Lilja, Meech and 46 year old Chelios over Quincey.
Kindl cracked a top 6 with Lidstrom, Stuart, Kronwall, Ericsson and White.

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09-14-2012, 06:48 PM
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Who was our #7 defensemen to start the year last season again? And really, Quincey was behind Ericsson on the depth chart when he was waived as well.

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09-14-2012, 06:49 PM
  #62
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Originally Posted by newfy View Post
Quincey didnt make the wings when they had Lidstrom, Stuart, Chelios, Kronwall and when Lilja was still playing well.

Kindl cant crack the top 6 with Kronwall as the number 1 guy and the second best probably Ian White. HUGE difference.

And you can only compare even strength production? You know why you can only compare that? Because Quincey plays short handed and gets PP time while Kindl doesnt. Babcock doesnt just draw names out of a hat for who gets ice time. He puts the players who play the role better into that spot. Quincey is better short handed and on the PP.

Kindl only gets sheltered minutes, playing te other teams worst players, that probably results in a bloated even strength production and doesnt allow you to see him make as many giveaways and mistakes
To be fair to Kindl we have no idea what he would do with those roles if he was given a chance. I understand they are earned, but he has the talent to at least be tried in them. Quincey wasn't tried in them here, we found out he was pretty good at them elsewhere. Starting to get the feeling we will find out the same thing about Kindl, only on a more epic proportion. He has always had more tools than Quincey, get ready to cover your eyes if he gets that chance somewhere else, guy is an NHL player. He has talent. I don't need to get into the Quincey or Kindl angle quite frankly we need both. Some can say that is sad, but both guys bring things to the table.

Given the way he sulked about being benched in Colorado I don't know that it is the best thing. But I want them all held accountable. There are really only two guys I won't take out of the lineup and that is Ericsson and Kronwall. White, Quincey, Smith, Colaiacovo, and Kindl should all be playing for roles. If one isn't doing it turn to another and put the guy playing poorly in the press box. I know that is a dreamers position, but I hope with less margin for error it is the Wings position on it next season.

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09-14-2012, 06:59 PM
  #63
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To be fair to Kindl we have no idea what he would do with those roles if he was given a chance. I understand they are earned, but he has the talent to at least be tried in them. Quincey wasn't tried in them here, we found out he was pretty good at them elsewhere. Starting to get the feeling we will find out the same thing about Kindl, only on a more epic proportion. He has always had more tools than Quincey, get ready to cover your eyes if he gets that chance somewhere else, guy is an NHL player. He has talent. I don't need to get into the Quincey or Kindl angle quite frankly we need both. Some can say that is sad, but both guys bring things to the table.

Given the way he sulked about being benched in Colorado I don't know that it is the best thing. But I want them all held accountable. There are really only two guys I won't take out of the lineup and that is Ericsson and Kronwall. White, Quincey, Smith, Colaiacovo, and Kindl should all be playing for roles. If one isn't doing it turn to another and put the guy playing poorly in the press box. I know that is a dreamers position, but I hope with less margin for error it is the Wings position on it next season.
Kindl got some games on the PP last year, and I thought he looked pretty good. Definitely was better than Hudler on the point.

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09-14-2012, 09:43 PM
  #64
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Who was our #7 defensemen to start the year last season again? And really, Quincey was behind Ericsson on the depth chart when he was waived as well.
Commodore, IIRC.

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09-15-2012, 07:34 AM
  #65
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Commodore was our #7, and I believe that was based on his past relationship with Babcock.

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09-15-2012, 09:16 AM
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Commodore was our #7, and I believe that was based on his past relationship with Babcock.
That and the fact he was injured in pre-season and Kindl outplayed him for large parts of the season. Commodore should thank Babcock's one error and your going to the press box style with Kindl. He didn't deserve to be in the lineup over him, and the toughness people talked about him bringing, people around here want to call Abdelkader a fake tough guy!?!? I know Commodore used to be able to fight, but he got crunched anytime he tried. Didn't work out and he didn't beat out Kindl either in my opinion with an AINEC on top of that.

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09-15-2012, 09:23 AM
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That and the fact he was injured in pre-season and Kindl outplayed him for large parts of the season. Commodore should thank Babcock's one error and your going to the press box style with Kindl. He didn't deserve to be in the lineup over him, and the toughness people talked about him bringing, people around here want to call Abdelkader a fake tough guy!?!? I know Commodore used to be able to fight, but he got crunched anytime he tried. Didn't work out and he didn't beat out Kindl either in my opinion with an AINEC on top of that.
The same guys bashing kindl now will be singing his praises if he makes the top 4, unless it's with another team, in which case he'll always be a bum

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09-15-2012, 11:06 AM
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The same guys bashing kindl now will be singing his praises if he makes the top 4, unless it's with another team, in which case he'll always be a bum
I definitely will sing his praises if he makes the top 4, that means his game has developed a lot and he deserves to be there. I think he has a chance to do it but we'll see. All I'm saying is its idiotic to callh im better than Quincey right now

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09-15-2012, 01:31 PM
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I definitely will sing his praises if he makes the top 4, that means his game has developed a lot and he deserves to be there. I think he has a chance to do it but we'll see. All I'm saying is its idiotic to callh im better than Quincey right now
It's idiotic to believe Quincey is any good now.

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09-15-2012, 01:41 PM
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It's idiotic to believe Quincey is any good now.
You dont have to think Quincey is good now. I think hes a decent number 4, but what does that say about Kindl who is clearly inferior to him in the league right now?

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09-15-2012, 02:00 PM
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Well like I said, Samuellson has pretty much hit 50 every year since he left the wings. Two 50 point seasons and one on pace for 47. Hes only been gone 3 seasons so there you go.

And all you guys can keep saying Kindl is better than Kindl and keep telling yourself that, even though one has shown he can put up around 30 points a year and play over 20 mins a game and play in osst situations.

The other one has the wings looking to sign Coliacovo because they have no trust in his ability whatsoever because he cant be relied on yet

The coaches, management and most people with common sense agree that Quincey is better but there will always be a couple people who love the less effective guys (Hudler, Kindl) and its hilarious to see them argue about it when the proof is in the pudding
Hudler was the team's best goal scorer last season. The fact that he was played at the point in a playmaking role on the PP while Franzen was heavily utilized in a goal scoring role allowed Franzen to score a few more goals. Hudler scored 23 goals at even strength in less than 14 minutes per game at even strength. He's one of only three players in the league who did that. He's also one of only three players who scored 25 goals while playing less than 16 minutes per game. But you can keep thinking he wasn't effective if you want. If he were played the amount of time Franzen were and had the kind of PP role Franzen did, maybe he hits 35 goals. Possibly even 40 if he gets on a roll.

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09-15-2012, 02:29 PM
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3rd/4th line players don't average nearly 16 minutes a game of ice time and .56 points a game (good for 128th among qualified forwards) the last 3 seasons. All before said player turned 25 years of age. Quincey wasn't traded for some scrub. He was traded for a pretty good, young forward.
Steve Downie's ATOI last year was the 5th highest among Colorado Avalanche forwards, behind Ryan O'Reilly, Paul Stastny, Gabriel Landeskog, and Daniel Winnick, but ahead of Milan Hejduk, Jamie McGinn, Matt Duchene, David Jones, Peter Mueller, Joakim Lindstrom, Jay McClement, and T.J. Galiardi.

One of the bloggers at Mile High Hockey, however, says that "I like him more as a 3rd or 4th line player with the ability to jump up on occasion if the top lines need more grit (or protection). If we go into next year with Downie in the top 6, I think it will mean we’re in for another disappointing year." http://www.milehighhockey.com/2012/5...2-steve-downie.

So Downie is certainly getting top 6 minutes in Colorado. Whether he's ideal for that role is more debatable.


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09-17-2012, 12:33 AM
  #73
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It's idiotic to believe Quincey is any good now.
He's mediocre, but still better than Kindl.

Quincey has been an NHL defenseman playing 20 minutes a night for 5 season now. Kindl has been unable to even hold onto the #6 spot, doesn't kill penalties, got little to no time on the PP, and doesn't set foot on the ice in the postseason.

You can't really compare apples to apples between the two because Kindl isn't even a full time NHL D-man yet.

And Quincey is less than 2 years older than Kindl. So if Kindl's going to have the better career than Q, he better get on it.

To be clear I'd love for Kindl to turn into something. He's the highest draft pick the Wings have had in years and years. It'd be great to see an actual NHL player come of it.

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09-17-2012, 10:36 AM
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He's mediocre, but still better than Kindl.

Quincey has been an NHL defenseman playing 20 minutes a night for 5 season now. Kindl has been unable to even hold onto the #6 spot, doesn't kill penalties, got little to no time on the PP, and doesn't set foot on the ice in the postseason.

You can't really compare apples to apples between the two because Kindl isn't even a full time NHL D-man yet.

And Quincey is less than 2 years older than Kindl. So if Kindl's going to have the better career than Q, he better get on it.

To be clear I'd love for Kindl to turn into something. He's the highest draft pick the Wings have had in years and years. It'd be great to see an actual NHL player come of it.
The only thing Quincey has on Kindl is experience. And for all that experience, Q plays like an immature defenseman.
Kindl has been unable to hold the 6-spot on a team that is loathe to give minutes to young defensemen.
That's why Quincey was kicked off the Wings the first time, if you remember.
The only reason Quincey has experience is because he was lucky enough to get waiver wired by Detroit.

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09-17-2012, 10:40 AM
  #75
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I think people are overvaluing Quincey's ice time. What good is 20 minutes if you do an awful job for 20 min? I would rather have kindl for 15 minutes a game. I don't think kindl is good either but his potential seems better.

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