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Brandon Sutter; Linemates and potential offensively

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Old
09-09-2012, 03:43 PM
  #51
Rowdy Roddy Peeper
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Originally Posted by Chancellor Vitale View Post
You're forgetting the minor detail that Staal forced the trade and to a particular team, thereby guaranteeing we had no chance of getting the best player (they weren't trading us Eric or Skinner in return, so...).
I don't wanna jump on you for what's probably an off-hand remark Cheech, but I just want to clarify that Staal forced nothing.

He rejected a 10 year deal from the Pens, and then said (privately) that he wouldn't re-sign with any team outside of a select few before UFA, which is totally understandable. Shero then made the totally understandable decision of moving an impending UFA for more long-term assets.

No villains here, IMHO.

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09-09-2012, 03:45 PM
  #52
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Originally Posted by Pengu View Post
I say no. Sutter is better center than winger and Vitale is 4th line center. Dupuis is a top six wingers or Tk and Tangradi (maybe)
fixed that for you... at this point duper has shown more ability to be a top sixer than either TK or Big Dog... Tangradi will get a chance to show he not only belongs in the NHL but as a top six forward when next we see hockey, but right now "potential" alone doesnt make him more of an option than Dupers

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09-09-2012, 03:46 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by Rowdy Roddy Peeper View Post
I don't wanna jump on you for what's probably an off-hand remark Cheech, but I just want to clarify that Staal forced nothing.

He rejected a 10 year deal from the Pens, and then said (privately) that he wouldn't re-sign with any team outside of a select few before UFA, which is totally understandable. Shero then made the totally understandable decision of moving an impending UFA for more long-term assets.

No villains here, IMHO.
agreed

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09-09-2012, 04:15 PM
  #54
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Originally Posted by Rowdy Roddy Peeper View Post
I don't wanna jump on you for what's probably an off-hand remark Cheech, but I just want to clarify that Staal forced nothing.

He rejected a 10 year deal from the Pens, and then said (privately) that he wouldn't re-sign with any team outside of a select few before UFA, which is totally understandable. Shero then made the totally understandable decision of moving an impending UFA for more long-term assets.

No villains here, IMHO.
The fact that he chose not to sign here and limited the teams he would resign with DID, in fact, force Shero's hand. It has nothing to do with assigning blame ... it doesn't make him or anyone else a villain. What he decided was the best move for him forced Shero to do what was best for the organization.

I don't think stating that Staal's decision set inevitable events in motion equates to calling him a villain. Just that it wasn't some ill-advised move by management when there were other avenues to explore. Staal may have been the best player in the trade, but given the situation, i think Shero did a pretty admirable job getting the return that he did.

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09-09-2012, 04:31 PM
  #55
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Originally Posted by Chancellor Vitale View Post
You're forgetting the minor detail that Staal forced the trade and to a particular team, thereby guaranteeing we had no chance of getting the best player (they weren't trading us Eric or Skinner in return, so...).

In short we didn't have the chance to make a trade for someone like Ryan, who would've been the best player in the deal so there's not much to be mad about. Just one of those things that happens to every GM when a good player wants to leave and is inflexible about where.
I'd rather have a replacement for Staal.Yes Staal did ask for a trade behind closed doors.Sutter is more of shutdown center and Staal grew out of that role.Back in 09, Staal was playing a shutdown role. We need to find Crosby's Neal and you don't need a Bobby Ryan or some star to do that. When Dumoulin is ready Martin and Orpik can get a good top 6 Forward.

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09-09-2012, 05:26 PM
  #56
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I get that Staal forced the trade, but our lineup got worse for next year and that's typically how I like to look at deals. Does this trade help us win a Stanley Cup next season? It doesn't...and neither does the Michalek deal.

Winning a Stanley Cup this season is obviously our number 1 goal but that can get a little skewed on these boards since it's largely prospect based. So while guys like Pouliot and Dumoulin are nice...they aren't the type of return a "win now" team should be high-fiving themselves about.

And before anyone jumps down my throat about this and says some dumb **** like "this sets us up to win more Cups down the line"...win one first...then worry about winning more.

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09-09-2012, 05:35 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by IHWR View Post
I get that Staal forced the trade, but our lineup got worse for next year and that's typically how I like to look at deals. Does this trade help us win a Stanley Cup next season? It doesn't...and neither does the Michalek deal.

Winning a Stanley Cup this season is obviously our number 1 goal but that can get a little skewed on these boards since it's largely prospect based. So while guys like Pouliot and Dumoulin are nice...they aren't the type of return a "win now" team should be high-fiving themselves about.

And before anyone jumps down my throat about this and says some dumb **** like "this sets us up to win more Cups down the line"...win one first...then worry about winning more.
Exactly. This is a more down the road set up.

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09-09-2012, 06:09 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by Ugene Malkin View Post
Exactly. This is a more down the road set up.
But it's not. It's a "get something now instead of nothing later" trade. And I'm not hating on the parts. Sutter's pretty decent and should work out nicely on the third line. Jordan Staal is just on the verge of breaking out and I'm gonna hate when that happens in a Canes jersey.

The Devils got jack when Parise left this summer, but he was also a big part in them coming close to winning a Stanley Cup. That's the other side of the coin and all I'm trying to point out. We could have done nothing and just had another year of Jordan Staal...maybe that doesn't work either...but yeah...what do I know...

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09-09-2012, 06:34 PM
  #59
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I would have been much happier with the trade had Shero taken Forsberg or Grigs.

The chronic wing gap and Staal leaving...we needed a wing...not another D-prospect. I would much rather have Fors/Grigs + Pouliot/Mattaa than Pouliot + Mattaa.

Because what we have now is a staked D-prospect pool that was already staked and a gap on the wing with a gap on the wing...and a meager wing prospect pool.

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09-09-2012, 06:54 PM
  #60
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Originally Posted by Uncle Jorgi View Post
The fact that he chose not to sign here and limited the teams he would resign with DID, in fact, force Shero's hand. It has nothing to do with assigning blame ... it doesn't make him or anyone else a villain. What he decided was the best move for him forced Shero to do what was best for the organization.

I don't think stating that Staal's decision set inevitable events in motion equates to calling him a villain. Just that it wasn't some ill-advised move by management when there were other avenues to explore. Staal may have been the best player in the trade, but given the situation, i think Shero did a pretty admirable job getting the return that he did.
This suggests that moving Staal was the only option though, and it wasn't.

If Shero didn't think the potential returns were worth giving up Staal, he could have let him play out his contract like Parise did in Jersey, and justified it by saying that loading up for the best possible Cup run was his #1 priority.

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Originally Posted by IHWR View Post
I get that Staal forced the trade, but our lineup got worse for next year and that's typically how I like to look at deals. Does this trade help us win a Stanley Cup next season? It doesn't...and neither does the Michalek deal.

Winning a Stanley Cup this season is obviously our number 1 goal but that can get a little skewed on these boards since it's largely prospect based. So while guys like Pouliot and Dumoulin are nice...they aren't the type of return a "win now" team should be high-fiving themselves about.

And before anyone jumps down my throat about this and says some dumb **** like "this sets us up to win more Cups down the line"...win one first...then worry about winning more.
On paper, sure. But our line-up with Staal didn't have a shutdown line, it had 3 scoring lines and an energy line, and that showed in our play when Sid returned. While Staal emerged as a scoring threat, his defense waned. How many times versus Philly did Staal position himself poorly in his own zone, or fail to clear the puck a foot from the line on the PK (especially early in the series)? In spite of his scoring, we could've used Couturier more than Staal versus Philly. He wasn't hard to play against.

Staal was placed with the likes of Sullivan, and defensive play became of secondary importance. Now we have a great 3rd line center who's been used in a 3rd line capacity. His role is clearly defined, and he's very effective in that role.

What's more, now we have another reliable RH face-off man. Balances things out a little.

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09-09-2012, 07:00 PM
  #61
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Originally Posted by IHWR View Post
But it's not. It's a "get something now instead of nothing later" trade. And I'm not hating on the parts. Sutter's pretty decent and should work out nicely on the third line. Jordan Staal is just on the verge of breaking out and I'm gonna hate when that happens in a Canes jersey.

The Devils got jack when Parise left this summer, but he was also a big part in them coming close to winning a Stanley Cup. That's the other side of the coin and all I'm trying to point out. We could have done nothing and just had another year of Jordan Staal...maybe that doesn't work either...but yeah...what do I know...
Not sure if anyone else feels this way, but I think NJ doesn't sniff the Cup, maybe even the playoffs without Parise. That's a huge blow for them.


We still have Malkin. And Crosby. And Letang. We still have a great chance to make the playoffs/deep run even without Staal. So making that "getting something now instead of nothing later" makes a ton of sense since we're still a good team.

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09-09-2012, 07:51 PM
  #62
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Originally Posted by SEALBound View Post
I would have been much happier with the trade had Shero taken Forsberg or Grigs.

The chronic wing gap and Staal leaving...we needed a wing...not another D-prospect. I would much rather have Fors/Grigs + Pouliot/Mattaa than Pouliot + Mattaa.

Because what we have now is a staked D-prospect pool that was already staked and a gap on the wing with a gap on the wing...and a meager wing prospect pool.
How did we get Neal again

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09-09-2012, 07:58 PM
  #63
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How did we get Neal again
That does always happen...can't always rely on it.

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09-09-2012, 08:03 PM
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I think 40 points is reasonable.

I think we are all going to fall in love with the guy. I love his two-way game - even more than I liked Staal's defensive game.


Sutter can absolutely shut people down.

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09-09-2012, 08:22 PM
  #65
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I think 40 points is reasonable.

I think we are all going to fall in love with the guy. I love his two-way game - even more than I liked Staal's defensive game.


Sutter can absolutely shut people down.
I agree. Sutter's going to be a fan favorite here in short order.

There's a very good reason why many Canes fans thought he was their MVP last year, and why many figured he would've been next in line for the captaincy.

I think a good chunk of posters here underrate what Sutter can bring our team.

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That does always happen...can't always rely on it.
That's the whole idea behind BPA, and it hasn't steered us wrong yet. Not only with Neal, but Kunitz too.

PMDs are high currency in today's NHL.

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09-09-2012, 09:03 PM
  #66
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Originally Posted by IHWR View Post
But it's not. It's a "get something now instead of nothing later" trade. And I'm not hating on the parts. Sutter's pretty decent and should work out nicely on the third line. Jordan Staal is just on the verge of breaking out and I'm gonna hate when that happens in a Canes jersey.

The Devils got jack when Parise left this summer, but he was also a big part in them coming close to winning a Stanley Cup. That's the other side of the coin and all I'm trying to point out. We could have done nothing and just had another year of Jordan Staal...maybe that doesn't work either...but yeah...what do I know...
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Not sure if anyone else feels this way, but I think NJ doesn't sniff the Cup, maybe even the playoffs without Parise. That's a huge blow for them.


We still have Malkin. And Crosby. And Letang. We still have a great chance to make the playoffs/deep run even without Staal. So making that "getting something now instead of nothing later" makes a ton of sense since we're still a good team.
The main point is they're not better off now, and next years crop of UFA's are deeper than this past one. I for one wouldn't have had bad feeling losing Staal had they made a finals appearance and it going either way. It's the nature of the beast.

On defense, "we are loading up to be very young very soon, and that comes with growing pains." This is where I feel it's going to be more of down the road for it will take time to figure it all out. They're set up with forwards for a couple seasons with an addition or two, but I can still see the defense being the thorn for lack of experience.

The ensuing lockout is really hurting this as well. Just so much turnover is going to have an effect on this team.

So until some of these parts play out and make this a fair trade(Domoulin & Pouliot) the Pens actually loose in this trade of Staal for Sutter. Of course there's also if one of them are traded for a piece that helps win out the trade, but that'll probably be part of a package and not a one for one deal.

These are some very strange times for this team. I really would have like to load up and make a run then go youth. We lost some great years of our top three centers the past few seasons. Would have been nice sitting on a second SC going into this part of changing of some guards.

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09-09-2012, 09:16 PM
  #67
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Originally Posted by Rowdy Roddy Peeper View Post
This suggests that moving Staal was the only option though, and it wasn't.

If Shero didn't think the potential returns were worth giving up Staal, he could have let him play out his contract like Parise did in Jersey, and justified it by saying that loading up for the best possible Cup run was his #1 priority.
True, trading him wasn't his only option. I'd argue that keeping him and letting him walk for nothing after the season was so contrary to the best long term interests of the team that it served the same function as forcing his hand, but like you say, some GMs have gone the other direction in very similar circumstances.

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09-09-2012, 09:20 PM
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That does always happen...can't always rely on it.
If it weren't for the fact that Shero seems to have established a record of pulling off defensemen for forward trades that work out well for the Pens, I'd understand your skepticism. But after Welch for Roberts, Whitney for Kunitz and Tangradi, and then Goligoski for Neal and Niskanen, I have to say that I like Shero's chances of pulling off another one...

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09-09-2012, 09:27 PM
  #69
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If it weren't for the fact that Shero seems to have established a record of pulling off defensemen for forward trades that work out well for the Pens, I'd understand your skepticism. But after Welch for Roberts, Whitney for Kunitz and Tangradi, and then Goligoski for Neal and Niskanen, I have to say that I like Shero's chances of pulling off another one...
Who in the system "right now" fits that category right now ready for a trade to be made tomorrow?

Edit: Also Shero has found it very expensive last season and did nothing.


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09-09-2012, 09:38 PM
  #70
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I don't wanna jump on you for what's probably an off-hand remark Cheech, but I just want to clarify that Staal forced nothing.

He rejected a 10 year deal from the Pens, and then said (privately) that he wouldn't re-sign with any team outside of a select few before UFA, which is totally understandable. Shero then made the totally understandable decision of moving an impending UFA for more long-term assets.

No villains here, IMHO.
Not saying Staal is a villain but there's no getting around the fact he wanted to go to Carolina (doesn't matter how he made it known to Shero), and he rejected a very substantial offer from Shero. So in the end where Staal is, is Staal's doing almost exclusively. And because it was that particular team, there was no way we were getting the best player. That's all I was saying.

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I get that Staal forced the trade, but our lineup got worse for next year and that's typically how I like to look at deals. Does this trade help us win a Stanley Cup next season? It doesn't...and neither does the Michalek deal.
OK. I thought you were suggesting you were pissed at Shero for making that quality of a deal (even though his hands were tied short of just playing him one more year and losing him for nothing).

My take on Sutter is that the overall quality of the team will be the same. The 3rd line will be less offensive but better defensively on the whole. A better shut-down line.

As for the other stuff you guys are talking about I think at 6'3", looking at that picture he's easily 180. He's got some muscle on him and at that height 180-185 will still look skinny. Wait until Kadar gets a hold of him. I bet he'll put on a few pounds of muscle the next year or so. Maybe make it up to 190. He'll always be thin though and that's fine. It won't stop him from being a great player if he wants to be.

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09-09-2012, 09:39 PM
  #71
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True, trading him wasn't his only option. I'd argue that keeping him and letting him walk for nothing after the season was so contrary to the best long term interests of the team that it served the same function as forcing his hand, but like you say, some GMs have gone the other direction in very similar circumstances.
Yeah, difficult situation, but Shero did as well as anyone could given the circumstances. Especially with a possible lockout looming...I can't imagine how sore we'd be if we opted to let Staal play out the season and then the whole thing gets cancelled.

That would've been crushing.

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09-10-2012, 08:09 AM
  #72
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Originally Posted by Ugene Malkin View Post
Who in the system "right now" fits that category right now ready for a trade to be made tomorrow?

Edit: Also Shero has found it very expensive last season and did nothing.
Nobody in the system right now can be traded for an established top 6 winger. They have to develop and show they have a high upside at the NHL level. Yes that will take a few years so Shero won't be getting a winger out of them any time soon (if he gets one at all).

I think the Penguins are more comfortable with the value of and how they develop defensemen. We have winger prospects in the system with top 6 potential, now whether they reach that potential remains to be seen. But I don't think we needed to draft a winger, considering they probably wouldn't play in the NHL right away anyways.

Shero can always try to swing a trade for a rental top 6 winger between now and the trade deadline.

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09-10-2012, 08:16 AM
  #73
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Yeah, difficult situation, but Shero did as well as anyone could given the circumstances. Especially with a possible lockout looming...I can't imagine how sore we'd be if we opted to let Staal play out the season and then the whole thing gets cancelled.

That would've been crushing.
Yeah and I think Shero was going to keep Staal, it wasn't until the day before the draft that Shero decided to trade him, Rutherford said Shero called him when he got to Pittsburgh and said he would negotiate with Carolina about a trade.

Pierre said it best on TSN's draft coverage. "Ray Shero couldn't allow this to fester" and he was absolutely right, Staal turned down the 10 year offer from the Pens then his agent told Shero that they will not negotiate at the moment...unless a trade can be made with Carolina. Yeah, you get what you can for him, we got Sutter, Dumoulin and the 8th pick.

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09-10-2012, 09:05 AM
  #74
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The main point is they're not better off now, and next years crop of UFA's are deeper than this past one. I for one wouldn't have had bad feeling losing Staal had they made a finals appearance and it going either way. It's the nature of the beast.
I really wish people would stop saying this. EVERY YEAR we go through this ****. Next year's list always looks better until the majority of the good players re-sign with their team throughout the season. You don't keep Staal and risk losing him because Corey Perry and Ryan Getzlaf are UFA's next summer. I'm not saying that keeping Staal for the year wasn't a reasonable option, but discussing next year's supposedly awesome UFA crop as a justification to risk losing him is asinine.

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09-10-2012, 10:33 AM
  #75
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That is mostly true. There are a decent share of big name guys next year (guys we've talked about a lot during trade season etc), but it's almost always the case the big guns get signed before you ever have a shot at them, including at the deadline. The list will be shorter next June. Although if there's a lockout, maybe not in this particular case. I don't think players can be re-inked when there's no CBA, right?

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