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Brandon Sutter; Linemates and potential offensively

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09-10-2012, 06:02 PM
  #126
Ogrezilla
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Yet you just listed a guy like Vermette who was available who would've been a nice fit, a guy like Foligno, Steve Downie, even a guy like David Booth was aquired for a package that wasn't anything special.... there aren't a ton but they are there and they take an aggressive GM to get them.

There is a reason that Shero's trades have been so brilliant. He usually doens't pull the trigure unless he knows he's going to win the trade or it's going to be low risk enough that it won't kill us long term. I'd just love to see him get more aggressive to try to acuire talent.

I get that there are circumstances where a trade can't be done, whether it's we don't have the right pieces, value, division rival etc., but there has been enough of opportunites for me to at least say, that Shero could be a bit more aggressive.
Shero was very conservative this year. I think its because he had no idea what was happening with Sid. Before that, I don't know how anyone can say he's been conservative. It's just not true.

2007: Roberts and Laraque
2008: Hossa deal and Gill
2009: Boucher, Garon, Kunitz, Guerin
2010: Ponikarovsky, Leopold
2011: Kovalev, Neal
2012 season: conservative. fair enough.
2012 offseason: traded Staal


Last edited by Ogrezilla: 09-10-2012 at 06:07 PM.
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09-10-2012, 06:03 PM
  #127
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You are casually comparing two very different entities: the personnel and the performance. The Pens didn't lose to the Flyers because they had an all-star deficiency. A team with much much less talent than the 11/12 Pens could have beaten the Flyers and they did in the very next round. We can easily be a better team next season with the current lineup provided that we also have a better team strategy. We're also adding Vokoun who could just as easily be the starting goalie next season. My only major concern with the team as it is currently constructed is the PK. Of course I also thought the PK was our major strength going into the playoffs last season so...
No question, and I answered that above. I'd be confident in what you said if we changed our staff or we had a staff that has in the past shown the ability to adjust on the fly. I just haven't seen that in the Bylsma era. Bylsma has been stubborn to a fault with his system and his over confidence in it is just staggering to me.

Personnel shouldn't be a huge issue though I do think we could be better in a few areas (mainly, getting Sid either another Kunitz type to couple with Kunitz or getting him a go to Iginla like player and having Dupuis on the other side, a shut-down defender if Orpik falters, a third wheel for Geno etc.).

But the biggest concern for me, is the coaching staff and if they can put these players in the right position to succeed. I'm skeptical at this point..

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09-10-2012, 06:06 PM
  #128
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You are casually comparing two very different entities: the personnel and the performance. The Pens didn't lose to the Flyers because they had an all-star deficiency. A team with much much less talent than the 11/12 Pens could have beaten the Flyers and they did in the very next round. We can easily be a better team next season with the current lineup provided that we also have a better team strategy. We're also adding Vokoun who could just as easily be the starting goalie next season. My only major concern with the team as it is currently constructed is the PK. Of course I also thought the PK was our major strength going into the playoffs last season so...
Losing Michalek could really hurt there. Someone needs to step up.

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09-10-2012, 06:07 PM
  #129
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Shero was very conservative this year. I think its because he had no idea what was happening with Sid. Before that, I don't know how anyone can say he's been conservative. It's just not true.
He picks his spots and that's what got him a player like Neal. But there has been a few instances (this last offseason, the last trade deadline, the previous summer UFA period) where I thought there was long term and short term options for 87 or 71's wing available that he either got bested on by what seemed like an underwhelming trade offer or the UFA deals were slight overpayments, which Shero doesn't seem to want to get involved with.

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09-10-2012, 06:09 PM
  #130
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Losing Michalek could really hurt there. Someone needs to step up.
The hope would be that Despres does but that's a lot to put on his shoulders. I still don't love that deal and would've rather seen us go in a different direction (trading Martin or perhaps even Orpik).

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09-10-2012, 06:11 PM
  #131
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He picks his spots and that's what got him a player like Neal. But there has been a few instances (this last offseason, the last trade deadline, the previous summer UFA period) where I thought there was long term and short term options for 87 or 71's wing available that he either got bested on by what seemed like an underwhelming trade offer or the UFA deals were slight overpayments, which Shero doesn't seem to want to get involved with.
examples?

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09-10-2012, 06:13 PM
  #132
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The hope would be that Despres does but that's a lot to put on his shoulders. I still don't love that deal and would've rather seen us go in a different direction (trading Martin or perhaps even Orpik).
It would be nice if Engo could become a strong PK guy to keep those minutes away from the guys we want playing more in the other phases of the game. That was a nice touch of guys like Gill, Eaton and Scuderi.

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09-10-2012, 06:19 PM
  #133
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examples?
2011 UFA: Michael Ryder, Erik Cole, Vrbata stand out the most. I would've loved to have had any one of them on our roster.

2012 NHL Trade Deadline: Kostitsyn obviously didn't work out in Nash but he seemed like a great fit at the time for Geno's other wing. Jamie McGinn could've been a nice long/short term fit. Obviously Vermette would've been really nice...

2012 offseason: Parise (not Shero's fault), Ray Whitney IMO, would've been a nice fit for us, I think Brad Boyes could've been a low risk option that could've paid dividends (has a past with 87), Latendresse is another low risk option and same can be said for Peter Mueller. Alex Semin is another name that stands out...

And the offseason's are just mentioning UFA's not even the trade possibilities.

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09-10-2012, 06:31 PM
  #134
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2011 UFA: Michael Ryder, Erik Cole, Vrbata stand out the most. I would've loved to have had any one of them on our roster.
This is the off-season I actually agree most with. Man, Ryder or Cole would look awesome here right now. Vrbata is weird because he only seems to score in Phoenix

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2012 NHL Trade Deadline: Kostitsyn obviously didn't work out in Nash but he seemed like a great fit at the time for Geno's other wing. Jamie McGinn could've been a nice long/short term fit.
I don't think forwards were an issue for us. I think Grossman or Gill are the best examples here. Like I said before, this deadline seems to me like he really was being overly conservative due to the Sid situation. He gave up assets for Kovalev in a futile attempt to win without Sid the year before so I just think he was gun-shy.

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2012 offseason: Parise (not Shero's fault), Ray Whitney IMO, would've been a nice fit for us, I think Brad Boyes could've been a low risk option that could've paid dividends (has a past with 87), Latendresse is another low risk option and same can be said for Peter Mueller. Alex Semin is another name that stands out...
Whitney was gone while we were going for Parise still, so that's a tough one. I don't like Boyes. Latendresse and Mueller seemed like pretty good options maybe worth giving a shot to. The thing is, I think we are looking at Tangradi as our guy to give a shot to this year. If a guy isn't for sure better than Dupuis, I don't think Shero is interested at this point. Which leaves Semin. I would have liked Semin. But at that price and with the CBA uncertainty, I can see why we would pass. This offseason will look pretty good if the cap actually does go down. I'm not saying it was great. The thing with all of the guys like Mueller is that if they don't end up beating out Tangradi in the top 6, where do they fit? They aren't as good as Cooke on a defensive shutdown line and they aren't 4th liners.

Over the last 14 or 15 months, I will agree. Shero has been conservative and probably overly so. But he has also had some extra **** to deal with like the best player in the world missing a full year and the uncertainty of a new cba that he hadn't had before. And before he had those issues he was a smart but still pretty aggressive GM.

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09-10-2012, 06:37 PM
  #135
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This is the off-season I actually agree most with. Man, Ryder or Cole would look awesome here right now. Vrbata is weird because he only seems to score in Phoenix



I don't think forwards were an issue for us. I think Grossman or Gill are the best examples here. Like I said before, this deadline seems to me like he really was being overly conservative due to the Sid situation. He gave up assets for Kovalev in a futile attempt to win without Sid the year before so I just think he was gun-shy.


Whitney was gone while we were going for Parise still, so that's a tough one. I don't like Boyes. Latendresse and Mueller seemed like pretty good options maybe worth giving a shot to. The thing is, I think we are looking at Tangradi as our guy to give a shot to this year. If a guy isn't for sure better than Dupuis, I don't think Shero is interested at this point. Which leaves Semin. I would have liked Semin. But at that price and with the CBA uncertainty, I can see why we would pass. This offseason will look pretty good if the cap actually does go down. I'm not saying it was great. The thing with all of the guys like Mueller is that if they don't end up beating out Tangradi in the top 6, where do they fit? They aren't as good as Cooke on a defensive shutdown line and they aren't 4th liners.

Over the last 14 or 15 months, I will agree. Shero has been conservative and probably overly so. But he has also had some extra **** to deal with like the best player in the world missing a full year and the uncertainty of a new cba that he hadn't had before. And before he had those issues he was a smart but still pretty aggressive GM.
My point is there has been options (which you agreed with). This year I think Mueller would've been the guy to take a shot with.

Yeah, it drives me nuts that we didn't make a better play for Cole in particular. He was always one of those guys who struck me as a guy who would just breakout with 87.

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09-10-2012, 07:27 PM
  #136
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My point is there has been options (which you agreed with). This year I think Mueller would've been the guy to take a shot with.

Yeah, it drives me nuts that we didn't make a better play for Cole in particular. He was always one of those guys who struck me as a guy who would just breakout with 87.
to be fair, he seems to hold a bit of a grudge against Orpik for breaking his neck. He may not have been a real option. Still, I can agree with you as far as the more recent history. I just tend to be an optimist. I don't think I'd like the alternative

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09-10-2012, 07:31 PM
  #137
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to be fair, he seems to hold a bit of a grudge against Orpik for breaking his neck. He may not have been a real option. Still, I can agree with you as far as the more recent history. I just tend to be an optimist. I don't think I'd like the alternative
True but players typically get over those type of things. I would've loved to see his speed/physical style with Sid.

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09-10-2012, 07:34 PM
  #138
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True but players typically get over those type of things. I would've loved to see his speed/physical style with Sid.
Who knows. Just throwing it out there.

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09-10-2012, 07:35 PM
  #139
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We will go into this season with a better team than we went into last season with. We will need to make some moves to get to where we want to be for the playoffs. I think Shero was either going to go really big with Parise/Suter or play it safe due to the CBA questions. If the cap goes down we will be sitting pretty. If it doesn't, we will still be one of the top teams in the east.

As far as not filling out the top 6 with legit top 6 wingers, I don't know how any of you expected that to happen immediately after moving Staal. It is unreasonable to think we can completely redesign the team in one off-season. We aren't the only team who wants top 6 wings. They aren't readily available. We can't just pick them up whenever we need them. We currently have arguably the best top 6 in the league as is. We have the two best players in the world at center, we have one of the best goal scorers on one wing and a really good complimentary winger on another. We have a prospect who could become a good complimentary guy and we have a jack of all trades who can fill in admirably while we find an upgrade.
110% agreed we can't win a cup with the team we have RIGHT NOW but Shero will make moves. Let's just think of how good this guy is at trades.... Bold Prediction:One of the D Prospects gets moved for Iginla at the deadline. IF (and yes that's a big if) he waives his NTC and resigns here IMO he just seems like a Shero type player.

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09-10-2012, 09:56 PM
  #140
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The hope would be that Despres does but that's a lot to put on his shoulders. I still don't love that deal and would've rather seen us go in a different direction (trading Martin or perhaps even Orpik).
There are very few players in the league who can fill Michalek's shoes in terms of PK and none of them on the Pens team. It's a loss we'll just have to adapt to; as in go from at top 3 to top ~10 team on the PK.

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09-10-2012, 11:49 PM
  #141
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There are very few players in the league who can fill Michalek's shoes in terms of PK and none of them on the Pens team. It's a loss we'll just have to adapt to; as in go from at top 3 to top ~10 team on the PK.
It's great that Michalek helped our PK in the regular season, but considering how ****ing terrible we were shorthanded when it mattered, we really can't do any worse without him.

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09-11-2012, 06:43 AM
  #142
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It's great that Michalek helped our PK in the regular season, but considering how ****ing terrible we were shorthanded when it mattered, we really can't do any worse without him.
Well, Michalek didn't appear to the be the source of the problem with our PK in the playoffs. Quite far from it actually: http://www.behindthenet.ca/nhl_stati...4+25+26+27+28#

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09-11-2012, 09:05 AM
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Yet you just listed a guy like Vermette who was available who would've been a nice fit, a guy like Foligno, Steve Downie, even a guy like David Booth was aquired for a package that wasn't anything special.... there aren't a ton but they are there and they take an aggressive GM to get them.

There is a reason that Shero's trades have been so brilliant. He usually doens't pull the trigure unless he knows he's going to win the trade or it's going to be low risk enough that it won't kill us long term. I'd just love to see him get more aggressive to try to acuire talent.

I get that there are circumstances where a trade can't be done, whether it's we don't have the right pieces, value, division rival etc., but there has been enough of opportunites for me to at least say, that Shero could be a bit more aggressive.
Now I'm confused. Earlier you were saying how expensive mid season/deadline deals were and now you are complaining that we didn't do them. So which is it? There are deals to be made in the season and we do have legitimate assets to deal. Like I said in my post before, which you sort of glossed over, we have several NHL ready D prospects that at this point may not have a ton of value, but in 40 NHL games could see their value shoot up. That could either make them into assets in a trade or put one of the veterans on the block.

Anyway, the point is we do have time and we do have assets.

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09-11-2012, 09:47 AM
  #144
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Well, Michalek didn't appear to the be the source of the problem with our PK in the playoffs. Quite far from it actually: http://www.behindthenet.ca/nhl_stati...4+25+26+27+28#
Regardless, people are acting as though we're going to suffer some huge PK freefall without Michalek here...we were 2nd worst on the PK in the playoffs in 2011, and the very worst in 2012.

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09-11-2012, 10:04 AM
  #145
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Regardless, people are acting as though we're going to suffer some huge PK freefall without Michalek here...we were 2nd worst on the PK in the playoffs in 2011, and the very worst in 2012.
Personally I would put the bulk of that blame on the coaching. When a team has the chance to build their powerplay around your PK which they do in the playoffs, you have to adjust. We refuse to do that.

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09-11-2012, 10:27 AM
  #146
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Personally I would put the bulk of that blame on the coaching. When a team has the chance to build their powerplay around your PK which they do in the playoffs, you have to adjust. We refuse to do that.
Yup this.

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09-11-2012, 11:09 AM
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Personally I would put the bulk of that blame on the coaching. When a team has the chance to build their powerplay around your PK which they do in the playoffs, you have to adjust. We refuse to do that.
While coaching seems like the obvious macro fix, about the only move Byslma had left was to replace the entire suite of PK players. Watch the series again and you will see we suffered an exorbitant number of individual mistakes that no amount of coaching would fix (unless you feel removing the scarecrow formerly known as Staal was an option). These mistakes along with extremely poor goaltending from Fleury cannot simply be written off as tactical mistakes. Individuals blew some major assignments and it downward spiraled into something worse. Not alleviating the coaches entirely, but I doubt they instructed Staal to miss some rather easy puck retrievals and lose faceoff after faceoff.

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09-11-2012, 11:26 AM
  #148
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While coaching seems like the obvious macro fix, about the only move Byslma had left was to replace the entire suite of PK players. Watch the series again and you will see we suffered an exorbitant number of individual mistakes that no amount of coaching would fix (unless you feel removing the scarecrow formerly known as Staal was an option). These mistakes along with extremely poor goaltending from Fleury cannot simply be written off as tactical mistakes. Individuals blew some major assignments and it downward spiraled into something worse. Not alleviating the coaches entirely, but I doubt they instructed Staal to miss some rather easy puck retrievals and lose faceoff after faceoff.
while that's true, there's really no reason we didn't put more pressure on them; particularly Giroux. It was bad all around. Back to the main point though; Michalek will definitely be missed on the PK.

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09-11-2012, 12:12 PM
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while that's true, there's really no reason we didn't put more pressure on them; particularly Giroux. It was bad all around. Back to the main point though; Michalek will definitely be missed on the PK.
Yep, and the only question is how much damage will occur as a result of the bad PK. We finished 15th overall in goals against last season despite having the 3rd best PK. If we had the 10th best PK last season it would have resulted in 11 more goals and 22nd overall in goals against. The 15th best PK would have meant 15 more goals and 25th overall in goals against. Not a good look.

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09-11-2012, 12:36 PM
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Yep, and the only question is how much damage will occur as a result of the bad PK. We finished 15th overall in goals against last season despite having the 3rd best PK. If we had the 10th best PK last season it would have resulted in 11 more goals and 22nd overall in goals against. The 15th best PK would have meant 15 more goals and 25th overall in goals against. Not a good look.
I think we'll have a better GA at even strength with Sutter actually centering a defense first line.

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