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Brandon Sutter; Linemates and potential offensively

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09-11-2012, 11:44 AM
  #151
Flat Stanley
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I don't think the Pens will miss Michalek's PKing that much. On defense, we have Orpik, Letang, Despres (if he makes the NHL) and Engelland for the PK. We have Sutter, Cooke, Glass, Adams, Vitale and Dupuis as solid PKers also.

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09-11-2012, 11:48 AM
  #152
Ogrezilla
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eyes of Orpik View Post
I don't think the Pens will miss Michalek's PKing that much. On defense, we have Orpik, Letang, Despres (if he makes the NHL) and Engelland for the PK. We have Sutter, Cooke, Glass, Adams, Vitale and Dupuis as solid PKers also.
Michalek is the best PKer of that group by a pretty wide margin I think.

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09-11-2012, 11:50 AM
  #153
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Originally Posted by Ogrezilla View Post
Michalek is the best PKer of that group by a pretty wide margin I think.
Yes but it's not like the Pens will struggle on the PK without him because our group of PKers seem capable of getting the job done.

I'm not saying Michalek wasn't a good PKer, I'm saying we won't miss him because we still have solid PKers.

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09-11-2012, 11:52 AM
  #154
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Originally Posted by Eyes of Orpik View Post
Yes but it's not like the Pens will struggle on the PK without him because our group of PKers seem capable of getting the job done.

I'm not saying Michalek wasn't a good PKer, I'm saying we won't miss him because we still have solid PKers.
I'd say Despres and Engelland both have to prove they are solid PKers.

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09-11-2012, 12:26 PM
  #155
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Two facts often missed by people (months later) and I'm not sure why:

1) Michalek was a better fit in Phoenix's system than ours; he is a good player overall but not much of an impact here. You can blame him, blame Byslma, whatever... he just didn't make a big impact for us (although he did block plenty of shots).

2) The Michalek trade should not be included among Shero's trades when evaluating "how well Shero did to improve the team".

The Michalek trade was not made to improve the team (directly). It was made to clear salary space for the attempt at getting Zach Parise and / or Ryan Suter. Shero was aggressive and did what he needed to in order to give himself a chance to land and keep one of those two very good players from the FA market. Didn't work out so that's too bad but you can't look at the Michalek trade by itself and say "wow what a bust move". The Michalek trade makes no sense except in the context of making room to sign other players and if Shero had no intention of going after Parise or Suter, he would not have traded Michalek in the way he did. It was a salary dump, period.

As it turned out, possibly a smart salary dump given that the cap is not likely to end up anywhere near $70.2M and we've got two marquee players left to sign including our #1D. It might end up being a very fortuitous move.

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09-11-2012, 12:41 PM
  #156
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chancellor Vitale View Post
Two facts often missed by people (months later) and I'm not sure why:

1) Michalek was a better fit in Phoenix's system than ours; he is a good player overall but not much of an impact here. You can blame him, blame Byslma, whatever... he just didn't make a big impact for us (although he did block plenty of shots).

2) The Michalek trade should not be included among Shero's trades when evaluating "how well Shero did to improve the team".

The Michalek trade was not made to improve the team (directly). It was made to clear salary space for the attempt at getting Zach Parise and / or Ryan Suter. Shero was aggressive and did what he needed to in order to give himself a chance to land and keep one of those two very good players from the FA market. Didn't work out so that's too bad but you can't look at the Michalek trade by itself and say "wow what a bust move". The Michalek trade makes no sense except in the context of making room to sign other players and if Shero had no intention of going after Parise or Suter, he would not have traded Michalek in the way he did. It was a salary dump, period.

As it turned out, possibly a smart salary dump given that the cap is not likely to end up anywhere near $70.2M and we've got two marquee players left to sign including our #1D. It might end up being a very fortuitous move.
1.) Long term, yes I agree Michalek wasn't the right fit for a top 4 dman playing 20+ minutes, but overall he was an effective player for the Pens. Worth $4 mil? Probably not, but this hindsight justification saying "Michalek did not fit in here" is non sense IMO. I am a bit biased because I sort of saw myself in Michalek (of course at a much lower level). I think he, like Orpik and Martin, just had a down year. I'm not sure how anyone watching the 2010-2011 Penguins can say Michalek didn't make a big impact.

2.) The Michalek trade absolutely should be among Shero's trades when evaluating "how well Shero did to improve the team" because even though everything you say below it is correct, he still made the move and we still got weaker as a result. Had we signed Suter, then both should be a part of it as well. The difference is I'm willing to give Shero time to make other additions before the playoffs roll around. You don't get freebies as a GM. He made the trade and even if his motive was to use it as a cap dump, he still didn't sign anyone/trade to replace Michalek. So, as it stands, the D got weaker. The catch though is that we, IMO, are good enough to win games while giving our promising prospects time in the NHL. By the deadline, our D could be a lot better than last year (it could also be worse).

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09-11-2012, 02:30 PM
  #157
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eyes of Orpik View Post
I don't think the Pens will miss Michalek's PKing that much. On defense, we have Orpik, Letang, Despres (if he makes the NHL) and Engelland for the PK. We have Sutter, Cooke, Glass, Adams, Vitale and Dupuis as solid PKers also.
I just really hope Orpik doesn't fall off the map ever more than he did last year... dude isn't getting any younger and he sucked a HUGE BAG of Ds the entire season.

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09-11-2012, 03:12 PM
  #158
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Originally Posted by ObsessedCreative View Post
I just really hope Orpik doesn't fall off the map ever more than he did last year... dude isn't getting any younger and he sucked a HUGE BAG of Ds the entire season.
I agree . He needs a bounce back year. Hopefully a healthy offseason of training will do the trick.

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09-11-2012, 03:51 PM
  #159
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Orpik's the man and the slump he had last season is being greatly exaggerated.

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09-11-2012, 04:15 PM
  #160
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eyes of Orpik View Post
I don't think the Pens will miss Michalek's PKing that much. On defense, we have Orpik, Letang, Despres (if he makes the NHL) and Engelland for the PK. We have Sutter, Cooke, Glass, Adams, Vitale and Dupuis as solid PKers also.
I still want Brett Clark a FA Defensemen who blocked 199 shots last year or a trade for Gorges or Murray. We don't have the stay at home type and that worries me. That Forward group is great.

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09-11-2012, 04:37 PM
  #161
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chancellor Vitale View Post
Two facts often missed by people (months later) and I'm not sure why:

1) Michalek was a better fit in Phoenix's system than ours; he is a good player overall but not much of an impact here. You can blame him, blame Byslma, whatever... he just didn't make a big impact for us (although he did block plenty of shots).

2) The Michalek trade should not be included among Shero's trades when evaluating "how well Shero did to improve the team".

The Michalek trade was not made to improve the team (directly). It was made to clear salary space for the attempt at getting Zach Parise and / or Ryan Suter. Shero was aggressive and did what he needed to in order to give himself a chance to land and keep one of those two very good players from the FA market. Didn't work out so that's too bad but you can't look at the Michalek trade by itself and say "wow what a bust move". The Michalek trade makes no sense except in the context of making room to sign other players and if Shero had no intention of going after Parise or Suter, he would not have traded Michalek in the way he did. It was a salary dump, period.

As it turned out, possibly a smart salary dump given that the cap is not likely to end up anywhere near $70.2M and we've got two marquee players left to sign including our #1D. It might end up being a very fortuitous move.
Can't you dump Michalek after you actually acquire the player(s) you were seeking?

They had the entire summer to make that move to be cap compliant by the start of the season. "Months"

It should count.

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09-11-2012, 05:21 PM
  #162
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ugene Malkin View Post
They had the entire summer to make that move to be cap compliant by the start of the season.
That's a 20/20 Hindsight comment. Going into the summer we didn't know where the big FA would end up, only that we wanted to target those two, and that we had to clear a significant salary even with the possibility of a higher cap, in order to sign both of them.

When neither panned out all that was left on the shelf was scraps and mental projects. So it was a ballsy move basically. Shero did all the right things to make it happen except have a team from Minnesota. He made room, offered substantial term and money, and a chance to win the title every year. Those guys opted to go elsewhere, so we were left with no Z. But we're not hurting for D prospects who are close to making the jump so having that cap space still doesn't hurt with the CBA situation unclear all summer.

You can say "Shero would've been smarter not to go after Parise and Ryan, kept Z and then dump Kennedy+ to get under the cap if he needed to later" but that's also 20/20 hindsight. When you have a chance to get great player like that who would be a good fit here (like Neal), you go for it. Shero did and it didn't work out. We're left with an open spot in our Top 4, likely to be take by Despres. It's not a huge deal considering Z was never a big impact guy here. Had he been, then this trade would look a lot more painful (even if we'd gotten a better player back).

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09-11-2012, 09:31 PM
  #163
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Who in the system "right now" fits that category right now ready for a trade to be made tomorrow?

Edit: Also Shero has found it very expensive last season and did nothing.
Tomorrow? Probably nobody. But tomorrow's not when a trade will be made. If we're talking around the trade deadline, which is a far, far more likely time for it to happen, I see a few possibilities. Bear in mind, though, that I think it will be more about being able to replace current NHLer's from within than it will be about using the prospects themselves in a trade.

Based on how various prospects perform this season (particularly in the NHL if and when they earn call-ups), I could see them making it possible to move the following current NHL players: Orpik, Martin and Niskanen. Out of the prospects, Despres is certainly a player that could end up being moved if some of the other prospects look like they can make him expendable in the long-run.

Last season, I don't think any of the defensive prospects were ready to jump in to the NHL and take the spot from an established player yet. And the prices for unproven prospects aren't nearly as good as what you can get for players who have proven they can play at the NHL level. Add to that the insane prices the few sellers were receiving, much less asking for, and I can see why Shero felt the market was too expensive at the time.

This season, though, we'll know what we've got in Despres, and we'll have a better fix on Morrow. Those are the two that are the most likely to make existing players expendable, in any case.

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09-11-2012, 09:36 PM
  #164
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With the Cap "potentially" dropping, it may have been a fortunate thing that we didn't get Parise or Suter. Can't imagine the cap hell we'd be in.......
Honestly....I'm just trying to be optimistic

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09-12-2012, 03:32 AM
  #165
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Our PK will probably be just fine. The only guy this offseason that I'm kind of dissapointed that we didn't go after/get is Mueller. He is on a cap friendly deal for florida right now and he wasn't nabbed up right away. Has the skill to play with either of the big 2 centers. His health is the big concern but it would have been a pretty much no risk signing. Every body else was either overpriced/picked a different direction/re-signed with their team/wasn't a good fit for the price.

I can see the concern over our defense being worse than last year, but I'm more prone to agree that if you move out Staal you are essentially moving toward 2 productive line vice 3 and you have to at least attempt to improve with a top 6 winger. Thus the Mueller thing. I can accept that not every move Shero makes will be perfect. I can even accept that the non moves shero makes are for good reason on most cases. It just has to be done with some decent reason behind it. As much as I've tried to come up with one for the Mueller thing the only thing there is the injury problem so I guess that's it?

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09-12-2012, 09:32 AM
  #166
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Originally Posted by ss53mech View Post
Our PK will probably be just fine. The only guy this offseason that I'm kind of dissapointed that we didn't go after/get is Mueller. He is on a cap friendly deal for florida right now and he wasn't nabbed up right away. Has the skill to play with either of the big 2 centers. His health is the big concern but it would have been a pretty much no risk signing. Every body else was either overpriced/picked a different direction/re-signed with their team/wasn't a good fit for the price.

I can see the concern over our defense being worse than last year, but I'm more prone to agree that if you move out Staal you are essentially moving toward 2 productive line vice 3 and you have to at least attempt to improve with a top 6 winger. Thus the Mueller thing. I can accept that not every move Shero makes will be perfect. I can even accept that the non moves shero makes are for good reason on most cases. It just has to be done with some decent reason behind it. As much as I've tried to come up with one for the Mueller thing the only thing there is the injury problem so I guess that's it?
I've said it a few times now, I think instead of signing a winger who has a chance to rebound Shero is happy to give Tangradi a chance. And I don't think he has any interest in bringing in guys who may possibly be better than Dupuis in the top 6, but definitely aren't good bottom 6 guys if they aren't. Basically, anyone he was going to bring in either needed to be a sure upgrade to the top 6 or be someone capable of playing in the bottom 6 if it didn't quite work out. I also think the defensive play of any forward we bring in is a concern. Sullivan was a train wreck in the playoffs and it hurt us.

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