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The History of Hockey Relive great moments in hockey history and discuss how the game has changed over time.

Ted Lindsay vs Mark Messier

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Old
09-09-2012, 06:43 PM
  #1
ginopuck
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Ted Lindsay vs Mark Messier

I've always felt Lindsay was a way better leader and had a bigger impact on his team and the game. Any thoughts?

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09-09-2012, 06:45 PM
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King Woodballs
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Lindsay sure had a bigger impact in the league
He started the players union

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09-09-2012, 06:55 PM
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jkrx
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I'm pretty biased in this but I will say Lindsay.

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09-09-2012, 08:00 PM
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tony d
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Both guys left a great impact on the game and are perhaps among the top left wingers of all-time, that said I'll give this to Messier.

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09-09-2012, 08:20 PM
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TheDevilMadeMe
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If you want impact on team, I think it's Messier and not particularly close - compare their Hart voting records for starters.

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09-10-2012, 01:33 AM
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BenchBrawl
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I prefer Messier.

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09-10-2012, 02:09 AM
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Hardyvan123
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
If you want impact on team, I think it's Messier and not particularly close - compare their Hart voting records for starters.
I would agree with in terms of impact.

As for leadership, it's one of those things that really can't be measured and is often over rated IMO.

For what it is worth does Lindsay have a "Vancouver mess" on his resume?

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09-10-2012, 02:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
If you want impact on team, I think it's Messier and not particularly close - compare their Hart voting records for starters.
Messiers hart voting gets a bit boosted because of the 1990 campaign when he basically got a hart because Gretzky weren't around.

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09-10-2012, 03:18 AM
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begbeee
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Union aside and impact goes easily to Messier. I saw play only Messier but what I know, I would prefer him on my team above Lindsay.
As someone has said leadership can't be measured, while Messier is often rated as one of the best captain (often as the best), I never saw Lindsay appear on such list and he was great captain on Wings before Yzerman legacy was created. And is not Messier still only captain who won SC with two different teams?

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09-10-2012, 05:16 AM
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RabbinsDuck
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I'll pick Messier for a single playoff run, where he consistently was great, but Lindsay did captain 4 Cup winning teams himself (Versus 2 for Messier) and 19 pts in 11 games in the '55 Cup win is way up there, but Lindsay was not as consistently great in the playoffs as Messier was.

Peak/Prime/Career wise - I take Lindsay. Only player in history to lead the league in goals, assists, penalty minutes and points (separate seasons, and he also led the league in playoff points) -Messier was a unique player, but Lindsay was even more unique.

Messier has a better Hart record, but I do not think it would be any better than Lindsay's if he happened to play for the Dynasty Wings.

Anyways Top 10 scoring finishes:

Lindsay
1, 2, 2, 2, 3, 7, 9

Messier
2, 3, 5, 7, 10

In his era, Lindsay was a better scorer, passer and evil SOB.


Last edited by RabbinsDuck: 09-10-2012 at 06:52 AM.
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09-10-2012, 06:40 AM
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begbeee
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RabbinsDuck View Post
Anyways Top 10 scoring finishes:

Lindsay
1, 2, 2, 2, 3, 7, 9

Messier
*2*, 2, 3, 5, 7, 10 - He was second only once.

In his era, Lindsay was a better scorer, passer and evil SOB.
Competition in the league is uncomparable.

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09-10-2012, 06:46 AM
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jkrx
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Competition in the league is uncomparable.
at the absolute top? No.

They competed with the select few best and generational talents. I agree that further down like top-40 and so on it starts to matter.

Edit: If all he best players are playing full seasons obviously.


Last edited by jkrx: 09-10-2012 at 07:02 AM.
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09-10-2012, 07:32 AM
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at the absolute top? No.

They competed with the select few best and generational talents. I agree that further down like top-40 and so on it starts to matter.

Edit: If all he best players are playing full seasons obviously.
If you agree that there are four uncomparable best: Gretzky, Lemieux, Orr and Howe, Messier had to compete against two of them, Lindsay just to one.

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09-10-2012, 07:40 AM
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jkrx
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If you agree that there are four uncomparable best: Gretzky, Lemieux, Orr and Howe, Messier had to compete against two of them, Lindsay just to one.
What about Richard, Beliveau, Bathgate, Conacher and Bentley?

and if we look at just those four then Messier is not even comparable to Lindsay as he actually competed with Howe while when Gretzky and Lamieux played full seasons in their prime Messier wasnt really hart material.

Lindsay has 8 1st ASTs and Messier have 4, 2 of them as LW I believe.

I think both players had tough competition and as I said I have a bit of a bias choosing Lindsay over Messier but that doesn't mean it can't be true. There arguments for it.

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09-10-2012, 09:55 AM
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I'm a big Lindsay fan, and I think that he and Messier are a lot closer than generally believed. Still, the point finishes definitely overstate Lindsay's offence compared to Messier's. Clearly he was boosted by Howe to a degree once Howe emerged, and in the early portion of his prime the competition was relatively weak outside of Howe and Richard.

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09-10-2012, 10:52 AM
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TheDevilMadeMe
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jkrx View Post
What about Richard, Beliveau, Bathgate, Conacher and Bentley?

and if we look at just those four then Messier is not even comparable to Lindsay as he actually competed with Howe while when Gretzky and Lamieux played full seasons in their prime Messier wasnt really hart material.

Lindsay has 8 1st ASTs and Messier have 4, 2 of them as LW I believe.

I think both players had tough competition and as I said I have a bit of a bias choosing Lindsay over Messier but that doesn't mean it can't be true. There arguments for it.
You're just name dropping. When Lindsay was at his peak, Maurice Richard and Bernard Geoffrion were the only top 100 players not playing on the Red Wings who were in their primes. Lindsay was on his way out when Beliveau and Bathgate were coming up. Roy Conacher had one season in his career as a top 5 point producer.

Furthermore, Lindsay had more advantages: playing on the same line as Gordie Howe who was playing at a generational level; being backdropped by Red Kelly, the best offensive defenseman to play the game before Orr; not having to face peak Sawchuk for 20% of his games.

Messier, on the other hand, spent the first part of his career taking a more defensive role behind Gretzky, and he didn't get big PP time until Gretzky's last few years in Edmonton.

I don't think Messier was much better than Lindsay, but I do think he was better. But in terms of impact on his team, I think it's easily Messier

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09-10-2012, 01:36 PM
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Originally Posted by jkrx View Post
Messiers hart voting gets a bit boosted because of the 1990 campaign when he basically got a hart because Gretzky weren't around.
really, it was because of vote rigging.

but at worst, the guy deserved 2nd place that year.

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09-10-2012, 01:57 PM
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ot92s
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ginopuck View Post
I've always felt Lindsay was a way better leader and had a bigger impact on his team and the game. Any thoughts?
I've only seen Messier with my own two eyes. Have you watched them both?

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
If you want impact on team, I think it's Messier and not particularly close - compare their Hart voting records for starters.
I've only seen Messier with my own two eyes. Have you watched them both?


Last edited by TheDevilMadeMe: 09-10-2012 at 02:55 PM. Reason: Merged since you asked the same question twice
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09-10-2012, 02:33 PM
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TheDevilMadeMe
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Lindsay's statistical prime was from 1946-47 to 1956-57.

These are the Hart records of Detroit players during the time:

Howe: 1st (1952), 1st (1953), 1st (1957), 3rd (1951), 4th (1954), 5th (1955), 7th (1956)
Kelly: 2nd (1954), 3rd (1951), 3rd (1953),4th (1956), 6th (1952), 8th (1955)
Lindsay: 4th (1949), 5th (1948), 6th (1950), 10th (1956)
Sawchuk: 4th (1952), 4th (1957)
Abel: 1st (1949), 4th (1950)
Quackenbush: 10th (1948)

I have also read reports from the time that Howe and Kelly were the MVPs of the Wings

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09-10-2012, 02:34 PM
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jkrx
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
You're just name dropping. When Lindsay was at his peak, Maurice Richard and Bernard Geoffrion were the only top 100 players not playing on the Red Wings who were in their primes. Lindsay was on his way out when Beliveau and Bathgate were coming up. Roy Conacher had one season in his career as a top 5 point producer.

Furthermore, Lindsay had more advantages: playing on the same line as Gordie Howe who was playing at a generational level; being backdropped by Red Kelly, the best offensive defenseman to play the game before Orr; not having to face peak Sawchuk for 20% of his games.

Messier, on the other hand, spent the first part of his career taking a more defensive role behind Gretzky, and he didn't get big PP time until Gretzky's last few years in Edmonton.

I don't think Messier was much better than Lindsay, but I do think he was better. But in terms of impact on his team, I think it's easily Messier
Name dropping? All those guys were top-5 players while Lindsay were a top-5 player. Obviously in different stages of his career. For the Sawchuk part well if you are going to bring up the strength of goalies I'll just point at the '80s and ask you how good the average goalie were back then.

Lindsay faced Lumley, Brimsek, Broda, Plante and Worsley during his prime.

Quote:
really, it was because of vote rigging.

but at worst, the guy deserved 2nd place that year.
Maybe, I didnt say Messier were terrible, I said because of a bit of bias I like Lindsay more.

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09-10-2012, 02:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Lindsay's statistical prime was from 1946-47 to 1956-57.

These are the Hart records of Detroit players during the time:

Howe: 1st (1952), 1st (1953), 1st (1957), 3rd (1951), 4th (1954), 5th (1955), 7th (1956)
Kelly: 2nd (1954), 3rd (1951), 3rd (1953),4th (1956), 6th (1952), 8th (1955)
Lindsay: 4th (1949), 5th (1948), 6th (1950), 10th (1956)
Sawchuk: 4th (1952), 4th (1957)
Abel: 1st (1949), 4th (1950)
Quackenbush: 10th (1948)

I have also read reports from the time that Howe and Kelly were the MVPs of the Wings
Howe, Lindsay, Kelly and Sawchuk were all MVPs of Detroit and there is very little that seprates the latter three from eachother.

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09-10-2012, 02:45 PM
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TheDevilMadeMe
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Name dropping? All those guys were top-5 players while Lindsay were a top-5 player. Obviously in different stages of his career. For the Sawchuk part well if you are going to bring up the strength of goalies I'll just point at the '80s and ask you how good the average goalie were back then.

Lindsay faced Lumley, Brimsek, Broda, Plante and Worsley during his prime.



Maybe, I didnt say Messier were terrible, I said because of a bit of bias I like Lindsay more.
Beliveau's first season as a top 10 scorer was 1954-55. Bathagte's first season as a top 10 scorer was 1955-56. Ted Lindsay was a top 10 scorer every season from 1947-48 to 1953-54. He was not a top 10 scorer in either 1954-55 or 1955-56. He would return to the top 10 for the last time in 1956-57, finishing 7th. Their primes barely overlapped. You might as well include Guy Lafleur and Bobby Clarke as Messier's competition.

And the point about Sawchuk was that it is widely recognized that his early 50s peak is one of the highest ever. And every non-Detroit player had to shoot on Sawchuk for 20% of their games

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09-10-2012, 02:45 PM
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Howe, Lindsay, Kelly and Sawchuk were all MVPs of Detroit and there is very little that seprates the latter three from eachother.
...except it appears that the contemporary opinion was that A LOT separated Kelly from the latter two.

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09-10-2012, 02:57 PM
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TheDevilMadeMe
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I've only seen Messier with my own two eyes. Have you watched them both?



I've only seen Messier with my own two eyes. Have you watched them both?
Did you really need to ask the same question twice?

And no, I didn't see Lindsay. I'm going off the historical record, which is clear that Messier was more important to his teams. It's less clear as to who the better player was, but I favor Messier by a little

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09-11-2012, 12:50 AM
  #25
Hardyvan123
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at the absolute top? No.

They competed with the select few best and generational talents. I agree that further down like top-40 and so on it starts to matter.

Edit: If all he best players are playing full seasons obviously.
Sorry but top 5, 10 and definitely 40 is different is a 6 team league compared to a 21 team league (with more competition for variation with 1st line players not only from Canada but also the States and other countries).

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