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Do some people blame Mats Sundin for Brendan Shanahan not making the Hall of Fame?

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Old
09-12-2012, 12:55 PM
  #51
hyster110
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Originally Posted by Hurt View Post
I don't think so. 2009, 4 male players get inducted. 2011, 4 male players get inducted. 2010, 2 females and only ONE male player inducted.
do some more homework, 2010 they didntt fill their quota of males inducted. 2008, 2006, 2002 through 2006. all of these were years where less than 4 people were inducted in the player category. and before they allowed women into the HHOF

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09-12-2012, 12:56 PM
  #52
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Not as much as i'd blame the voting process altogether. Way too O6-heavy, imo.


TOML

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09-12-2012, 02:10 PM
  #53
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Not as much as i'd blame the voting process altogether.
That's what everyone seemed to forget. It was the Selection Committee who votes in the players and coaches, so people should blame them and not Sundin.

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09-12-2012, 02:54 PM
  #54
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Originally Posted by TOML View Post
Not as much as i'd blame the voting process altogether. Way too O6-heavy, imo.


TOML
You're right that it's the voting process, but I don't think you can blame it on an O6 bias when Shanahan won 3 cups with Detroit and also played for the Rangers.

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Old
09-12-2012, 05:00 PM
  #55
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Originally Posted by Viqsi View Post
Sundin: 1346 games played, 1.002 ppg (0.42 gpg, 0.58 apg)
Bure: 702 games played, 1.11 ppg (0.62 gpg, 0.49 apg)

Does that help?
This just in: longevity and career totals are taken into account when assessing a hockey player's career.

Being point per game over the course of a 1346 game career > being 1.1 points per game over the course of a 702 game career.

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09-12-2012, 05:19 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by Fan Of Every Anton View Post
You're right that it's the voting process, but I don't think you can blame it on an O6 bias when Shanahan won 3 cups with Detroit and also played for the Rangers.
Lol que? Aren't both the red wings and rangers original 6 teams? Original 6 only meaning longest time in nhl history with the same franchises...

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09-12-2012, 05:27 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by MastuhNinks View Post
This just in: longevity and career totals are taken into account when assessing a hockey player's career.

Being point per game over the course of a 1346 game career > being 1.1 points per game over the course of a 702 game career.
You should then look at sundins career when he only played 702 games. Oh wait that makes your argument look silly. If sundin was at bure's pace he wouldve been a 15g, 25a player for his last decade. But no, since sundin was a compilier with zero elite seasons he's better than bure who has the same number of stanley cups in half the time.

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09-12-2012, 05:42 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by The Head Crusher View Post
There is nothing wrong with that. Players like Granato and James helped to grow women's hockey to where it is today

no where, something you turn on during commercial breaks (when its a commercial you've seen too many times)

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Old
09-12-2012, 06:18 PM
  #59
MastuhNinks
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Originally Posted by sunnyvale420 View Post
You should then look at sundins career when he only played 702 games. Oh wait that makes your argument look silly. If sundin was at bure's pace he wouldve been a 15g, 25a player for his last decade. But no, since sundin was a compilier with zero elite seasons he's better than bure who has the same number of stanley cups in half the time.
Sundin had more points in his best season than Bure had in his.

Also I like how Bure's style of play only being effective for a shorter career is somehow used as an argument for him... If anything that is a pro-Sundin argument, as it suggests Bure's points per game (which is really all he has on Sundin, obviously his goal scoring ability is much better but that's just because they were two different types of players) is only (marginally) higher because he played so few games compared to Sundin. No chance Bure scores at a 1.1 point per game clip if he had a 1346 game career.

Bure was .1 points per game better than Sundin in a career that was just over half the length, I don't see how people can seriously suggest that he had a better career. The slight advantage in per-game stats is dwarfed by the fact that Sundin's career numbers are so, so much better.

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Old
09-12-2012, 06:32 PM
  #60
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There was definitely people on HF suggesting it was Sundin's fault, in numerous threads no less. In reality, Shanahan didn't get in because he is currently employed by the NHL. IDK why people care about first ballot induction in hockey anyhow, this isn't the MLB where it's actually indicative of how good a player was and they actually disclose their voting record.

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Old
09-12-2012, 10:53 PM
  #61
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Originally Posted by sunnyvale420 View Post
You should then look at sundins career when he only played 702 games. Oh wait that makes your argument look silly. If sundin was at bure's pace he wouldve been a 15g, 25a player for his last decade. But no, since sundin was a compilier with zero elite seasons he's better than bure who has the same number of stanley cups in half the time.
In my imaginary past Sundin's production doesn't actually decline to 15g - 25a. It goes from Bure's pace to 100g 100a for the last decade of his career.. In addition, he wins the Stanley Cup for 10 years straight and is crowned the undisputed champion of hockey. In conclusion, this is why I think Sundin had a more impressive career than Bure.

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09-13-2012, 12:49 AM
  #62
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Originally Posted by MastuhNinks View Post
This just in: longevity and career totals are taken into account when assessing a hockey player's career.

Being point per game over the course of a 1346 game career > being 1.1 points per game over the course of a 702 game career.
Bure was the better player. No contest. Sundin had the better career.

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Old
09-13-2012, 01:00 AM
  #63
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I don't blame Mats Sundin... he has nothing to do with the HOF process.

I blame the HOF committee for making him a 1st ballot HOFer when he clearly lacks the credentials to be one. HOF? Maybe. 1st ballot HOF? Not even close.

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09-13-2012, 01:05 AM
  #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sunnyvale420 View Post
You should then look at sundins career when he only played 702 games. Oh wait that makes your argument look silly. If sundin was at bure's pace he wouldve been a 15g, 25a player for his last decade. But no, since sundin was a compilier with zero elite seasons he's better than bure who has the same number of stanley cups in half the time.
Sundin had elite seasons.

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Old
09-13-2012, 01:09 AM
  #65
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Originally Posted by 5RingsAndABeer View Post
I don't blame Mats Sundin... he has nothing to do with the HOF process.

I blame the HOF committee for making him a 1st ballot HOFer when he clearly lacks the credentials to be one. HOF? Maybe. 1st ballot HOF? Not even close.
Maybe to some random person posting on HFBoards. Fortunately for the rest of us, people like Scotty Bowman, Pat Quinn, Igor Larionov, etc. decide who makes the Hall of Fame.

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Old
09-13-2012, 01:20 AM
  #66
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Originally Posted by LEAFS FAN 4 EVER View Post
A couple of months ago after the Hockey Hall of Fame announced the players going in this year I got the sense on here that some people blamed Mats Sundin for Brendan Shanahan not getting in on his first chance. Now my question is why does no one blame Adma Oates or Pavel Bure? Either of them could have waited at least 1 more year or does Sundin get blammed because he got in the first chance he could and Shanahan didn't. I don't include Joe Sakic because everyone agreed he was making it the first chance he was eligable.
No blames Oates and Bure because they are both better than Sundin and had to wait so long to be enshrined which was a crime.

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Originally Posted by MastuhNinks View Post
Sundin had more points in his best season than Bure had in his.
You mean his 114 point season in 92-93? Good enough for 11th in the league. 21 players scored 100 points that year and 10 more had 90.

Whats more impressive Bure's 60 goals and 110 points that year or Sundins 47 goals and 114 points?

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Old
09-13-2012, 01:21 AM
  #67
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wait are people saying Bure shouldnt be in the hall of fame over sundin? One of the most explosive goal scores to ever play the game?

What exactly has Sundin won?

Mats was a piss poor leader, choked in the playoffs, never carried his team to a single thing and he ran away from Toronto and left them hanging when it mattered most. The guy is a scrub

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09-13-2012, 01:23 AM
  #68
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Originally Posted by Falcons93 View Post
Sundin had elite seasons.
lol he had one...maybe two so settle down

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09-13-2012, 01:56 AM
  #69
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Originally Posted by Polo View Post
wait are people saying Bure shouldnt be in the hall of fame over sundin? One of the most explosive goal scores to ever play the game?

What exactly has Sundin won?

Mats was a piss poor leader, choked in the playoffs, never carried his team to a single thing and he ran away from Toronto and left them hanging when it mattered most. The guy is a scrub
Well this is just downright disrespectful. You don't have to like Sundin, but the fact still remains. He was one heck of a player. Elite consistency and great offensive player. He is a Hall Of Fame material. Not a slam dunk 1st ballot as some has said, but he is HoF caliber player. Dislike the guy if you want, but if you don't give him any credit and call him a scrub it makes you look like a hater of the game of hockey.

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09-13-2012, 02:56 AM
  #70
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Originally Posted by Epsilon View Post
Shanahan didn't get in because of all the heat and controversy surrounding his job as league disciplinarian, not because of Mats Sundin.
This^


If it were not for his high profile position with the NHL he likely would have beat out either Sundin or Bure or Oates.


As for which one of the three should be excluded I am torn. Oates enjoyed the right era for half his carreer. HE had a few good wingers iirc. BUt his numbers are without question HoF worthy.

Bure had the short carreer. I can remember him sitting halfway to center ice waiting for the breakout pass. His skill was never in question. Definitly an elite scorer of his generation.

Sundin never won anything but was a dominant #1C for almost 2 decades. His international play often gets forgotten. Also overlooked is his lack of linemates in the TML organization. A consistant PPG player through the "dead puck" era, he was a beast physically.

All were special players.


Shanny will get in. So should a few others.

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Old
09-13-2012, 10:03 AM
  #71
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Originally Posted by TAnnala View Post
Well this is just downright disrespectful. You don't have to like Sundin, but the fact still remains. He was one heck of a player. Elite consistency and great offensive player. He is a Hall Of Fame material. Not a slam dunk 1st ballot as some has said, but he is HoF caliber player. Dislike the guy if you want, but if you don't give him any credit and call him a scrub it makes you look like a hater of the game of hockey.
I think he was an a decent player but everything I said about him is true whether you argree with it or not.

He led his team to nothing and when he had the chance to really help his team, he left them hanging.

He stated numerous time in the media his heart was in Toronto and he wont be pressured to leave. He wanted to retire there.

Next thing you know he's offered 10m from Vancouver and he takes off and the leafs got nothing at all when the return could have been pretty big.

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09-13-2012, 10:10 AM
  #72
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Originally Posted by Polo View Post
wait are people saying Bure shouldnt be in the hall of fame over sundin? One of the most explosive goal scores to ever play the game?

What exactly has Sundin won?

Mats was a piss poor leader, choked in the playoffs, never carried his team to a single thing and he ran away from Toronto and left them hanging when it mattered most. The guy is a scrub


Above: Piss poor leader choking his team to an olympic gold medal.

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09-13-2012, 10:20 AM
  #73
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Originally Posted by The Head Crusher View Post
Its because he is a Leaf to be honest. Many people though Sundin received extra votes that he probably didn't deserve just because of this fact.
I disagree. I think it probably had more to do with the fact he was the first European-born player drafted 1st overall. You get recognition for that sort of thing y'know

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09-13-2012, 10:32 AM
  #74
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Originally Posted by Polo View Post
I think he was an a decent player but everything I said about him is true whether you argree with it or not.

He led his team to nothing and when he had the chance to really help his team, he left them hanging.

He stated numerous time in the media his heart was in Toronto and he wont be pressured to leave. He wanted to retire there.

Next thing you know he's offered 10m from Vancouver and he takes off and the leafs got nothing at all when the return could have been pretty big.
He rejected the 10 million and took less money.

Burke shut the door on Sundin as soon as he was hired.

Ergo, Sundin is the devil and does not belong in the hall.

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Old
09-13-2012, 10:36 AM
  #75
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Originally Posted by Romang67 View Post

Above: Piss poor leader choking his team to an olympic gold medal.
Are you suggesting something here? I highly doubt you're suggesting that in his 20 year career, winning a gold medal while playing alongside

Forsberg
D sedin
H sedin
N. Lidstrom
Zetterberg

Is because of Sundins leadership? That would be pretty silly.

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Originally Posted by Ace14 View Post
He rejected the 10 million and took less money.

Burke shut the door on Sundin as soon as he was hired.

Ergo, Sundin is the devil and does not belong in the hall.
Burke did not shut the door on Sundin (until towards the end when Sundin seemed like he wanted to play elsewhere). Burke openly stated to the media Sundin was welcome to stay when hired.

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