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Do some people blame Mats Sundin for Brendan Shanahan not making the Hall of Fame?

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Old
09-13-2012, 12:23 PM
  #101
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Do you want an example of TML great captains? Even though Doug Gilmour was captain for a short time, he is an example of a great captain. Wendel Clark? Probably none better in leaf history. Sundin just doesnt fit in the same sentence as those two.

Why? Because not only did they use words on the bench they would go out on the ice and lead by example. When the time needed for the team to be fired up, they would throw a huge check, fight, score a goal and have one hell of a shift.

Im not saying Sundin never did that (well not fight or throw that many hits) because ive seen him fired up on shifts before and create chances. But there were more times than not where his team could really use a spark and all he would do is go out, hook someone and get a penalty.

Edit: btw to the above posts. You havent provided a single thing to suggest he was a great leader. Instead of repeating myself you can re-read my posts and see why. And not only did he not lead his team to SC, he never even led them to a SCF or even made that many deep of runs. Sure his supporting role was not the greatest for a huge portion of his career but if he is as great as some of you say, surely he could have done it a few years where he had guys like Mogilny, Roberts, Cujo

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09-13-2012, 12:24 PM
  #102
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Originally Posted by MastuhNinks View Post
I honestly can't believe all the Sundin hate. Shanahan had 5 more points than Sundin in just under 200 more games, and Sundin was always the best player on his team, often by a longshot whereas Shanny was more of a complimentary player for most of his career. I know Shanahan brought more to the table than scoring, but really not much more Sundin that it's worth the trade off in offensive talent. Those late 90's/early 2000's Red Wings teams are considered some of the best teams in modern history, so I don't really think Stanley Cups is a fair argument. Shanahan over Bure is a far more interesting argument IMO.
I couldn't have said that any better and at least someone else agrees with me that Bure getting in before Shanahan is a better discussion to have, so I can't believe other people on here rather focus on Sundin getting in.


Last edited by MapleLeafsFan4Ever: 09-13-2012 at 12:30 PM.
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Old
09-13-2012, 12:25 PM
  #103
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Originally Posted by Polo View Post
Do you want an example of TML great captains? Even though Doug Gilmour was captain for a short time, he is an example of a great captain. Wendel Clark? Probably none better in leaf history. Sundin just doesnt fit in the same sentence as those two.

Why? Because not only did they use words on the bench they would go out on the ice and lead by example. When the time needed for the team to be fired up, they would throw a huge check, fight, score a goal and have one hell of a shift.

Im not saying Sundin never did that (well not fight or throw that many hits) because ive seen him fired up on shifts before and create chances. But there were more times than not where his team could really use a spark and all he would do is go out, hook someone and get a penalty.

Edit: btw to the above posts. You havent provided a single thing to suggest he was a great leader. Instead of repeating myself you can re-read my posts and see why. And not only did he not lead his team to SC, he never even led them to a SCF or even made that many deep of runs. Sure his supporting role was not the greatest for a huge portion of his career but if he is as great as some of you say, surely he could have done it a few years where he had guys like Mogilny, Roberts, Cujo
Except Sundin was clutch and scored a bunch of game winning or game tying goals...

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Old
09-13-2012, 12:26 PM
  #104
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Originally Posted by Polo View Post
And not only did he not lead his team to SC, he never even led them to a SCF or even made that many deep of runs.
In 1999 & 2002 while Sundin was the Leafs captain they played in the Eastern Conference Finals which is as far as a team can go without making the Stanley Cup Finals.

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09-13-2012, 12:27 PM
  #105
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Originally Posted by DPyro View Post
Sundin was a better hockey player and deserved it. Remember, it's the hockey hall of fame. Not the NHL hall of fame.
I'd argue that Sundin was the better NHL player anyways.

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09-13-2012, 12:27 PM
  #106
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Originally Posted by Polo View Post
Do you want an example of TML great captains? Even though Doug Gilmour was captain for a short time, he is an example of a great captain. Wendel Clark? Probably none better in leaf history. Sundin just doesnt fit in the same sentence as those two.

Why? Because not only did they use words on the bench they would go out on the ice and lead by example. When the time needed for the team to be fired up, they would throw a huge check, fight, score a goal and have one hell of a shift.

Im not saying Sundin never did that (well not fight or throw that many hits) because ive seen him fired up on shifts before and create chances. But there were more times than not where his team could really use a spark and all he would do is go out, hook someone and get a penalty.

Edit: btw to the above posts. You havent provided a single thing to suggest he was a great leader. Instead of repeating myself you can re-read my posts and see why. And not only did he not lead his team to SC, he never even led them to a SCF or even made that many deep of runs. Sure his supporting role was not the greatest for a huge portion of his career but if he is as great as some of you say, surely he could have done it a few years where he had guys like Mogilny, Roberts, Cujo
You do make good points. But your proof is not any better than the proof the opposite side has provided. If someone would be looking this debate from outside it would be a tie as it's best and most times your arguments are not as strong as others.

Who else would have been Leaf's captain if Sundin would not have?

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09-13-2012, 12:31 PM
  #107
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Polo View Post
Do you want an example of TML great captains? Even though Doug Gilmour was captain for a short time, he is an example of a great captain. Wendel Clark? Probably none better in leaf history. Sundin just doesnt fit in the same sentence as those two.

Why? Because not only did they use words on the bench they would go out on the ice and lead by example. When the time needed for the team to be fired up, they would throw a huge check, fight, score a goal and have one hell of a shift.

Im not saying Sundin never did that (well not fight or throw that many hits) because ive seen him fired up on shifts before and create chances. But there were more times than not where his team could really use a spark and all he would do is go out, hook someone and get a penalty.

Edit: btw to the above posts. You havent provided a single thing to suggest he was a great leader. Instead of repeating myself you can re-read my posts and see why. And not only did he not lead his team to SC, he never even led them to a SCF or even made that many deep of runs. Sure his supporting role was not the greatest for a huge portion of his career but if he is as great as some of you say, surely he could have done it a few years where he had guys like Mogilny, Roberts, Cujo
So, are you actually reading my posts, or did you decide to read a book instead?

How is it not proof that he's a great leader when he led his team to gold medals time and time again? When he led by example by scoring 83 points in 69 games? Ask any person that has watched Mats Sundin in our national team and you will be told that he led the team, even when he did not have the "C" on his jersey.

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09-13-2012, 12:31 PM
  #108
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Originally Posted by DPyro View Post
Except Sundin was clutch and scored a bunch of game winning or game tying goals...
Doesn't he have the most career overtime goals or is at least tied for 1st in that category?

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09-13-2012, 12:34 PM
  #109
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Originally Posted by LEAFS FAN 4 EVER View Post
Doesn't he have the most career overtime goals or is at least tied for 1st in that category?
Tied for second. And 6th all time for GWG.

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09-13-2012, 12:36 PM
  #110
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Originally Posted by TAnnala View Post
You do make good points. But your proof is not any better than the proof the opposite side has provided. If someone would be looking this debate from outside it would be a tie as it's best and most times your arguments are not as strong as others.

Who else would have been Leaf's captain if Sundin would not have?
Well as you said we will just have to agree to disagree because neither one is giving up here

There was nobody on that leafs team that could even be closely considered as a captain other than Gary Roberts IMO. And Mats Sundin wasnt a horrible captain by any means where there could have been a case for taking it away and giving it to someone else.

Even though there can be an argument for why Sundin left Toronto like he did..I stopped liking him right there. maybe it's unjustified or maybe it is but for someone not being a leaf fan to watch that play out like it did, was pretty sad.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LEAFS FAN 4 EVER View Post
In 1999 & 2002 while Sundin was the Leafs captain they played in the Eastern Conference Finals which is as far as a team can go without making the Stanley Cup Finals.
keyword in my post "that many" and dont forget, he was injured for one of them and Mogilny I believe it was, led the charge.


Last edited by Polo*: 09-13-2012 at 12:41 PM.
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Old
09-13-2012, 12:37 PM
  #111
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So what if he won a few gold medals, he isn't that great of a leader, even if he captained the team.

Sorry, that's a ridiculous argument if you're rolling with that.

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09-13-2012, 12:42 PM
  #112
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So what if he won a few gold medals, he isn't that great of a leader, even if he captained the team.

Sorry, that's a ridiculous argument if you're rolling with that.
Wow... well that counter argument is just... Are you a lawyer by any chance? Cause with that kind of arguing skill, you really should get paid for it!

Would you please inform a lesser man like me how him leading his team to victory is a bad argument for him being a good leader?

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09-13-2012, 12:43 PM
  #113
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Originally Posted by Romang67 View Post
Tied for second. And 6th all time for GWG.
Thank you for knowing the answer.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Polo
keyword in my post "that many" and dont forget, he was injured for one of them and Mogilny I believe it was, led the charge.
Besides the Conference Finals in 1999 & 2002 in 2000, 2001 and 2004 they got as far as the Eastern Conference Semi Finals or is that still not good enough? The only time with Sundin as captain when the Leafs didn't make it out of the 1st round was in 2003.

Yes your right Sundin was injured in 2002 against the Islanders in the 1st round, but the fact is a Sundin lead team made it to the Conference Finals without him. Plus if it wasn't for Mogilny giving the puck away in overtime of Game 6 vs Carolina maybe the Leafs comeback and win that series. You forget it was Sundin who tied the game in the 3rd with under 30 seconds left.

As for who lead the charge with Sundin injured I thought it was Roberts.


Last edited by MapleLeafsFan4Ever: 09-13-2012 at 01:00 PM.
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Old
09-13-2012, 12:51 PM
  #114
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Originally Posted by LEAFS FAN 4 EVER View Post
I couldn't have said that any better and at least someone else agrees with me that Bure getting in before Shanahan is a better discussion to have, so I can't believe other people on here rather focus on Sundin getting in.
I find Bure's resume in a shorter career to be more impressive than Shanahan or Sundin. It was a joke he had to wait so long.

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09-13-2012, 12:54 PM
  #115
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Originally Posted by LEAFS FAN 4 EVER View Post
Thank you for knowing the answer.

Besides the Conference Finals in 1999 & 2002 in 2000, 2001 and 2004 they got as far as the Eastern Conference Semi Finals or is that still not good enough? The only time with Sundin as captain when the Leafs didn't make it out of the 1st round was in 2003.

Yes your right Sundin was injured in 2002 against the Islanders in the 1st round, but the fact is a Sundin lead team made it to the Conference Finals without him. Plus if it wasn't for Mogilny not giving the puck away in overtime of Game 6 vs Carolina maybe the Leafs comeback and win that series. You forget it was Sundin who tied the game in the 3rd with under 30 seconds left.

As for who lead the charge with Sundin injured I thought it was Roberts.
Maybe it was Roberts, Im not really sure. My dad is the leaf fan I just watch a lot of their games.

Coulda, woulda, shoulda's dont really count

As for the leafs past having Sundin, you guys have had some really horrific rosters to deal with so I dont blame Sundin for not getting them into the playoffs his final few seasons. Not even gretzky could save those teams (lol well maybe Im wrong there but you get my point)

0 stanley cups. 0 stanley cup appearances and 1 conference finals is my point here. So no thats not good enough for me

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09-13-2012, 01:43 PM
  #116
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Originally Posted by Kreator View Post
How anyone can hate on Mr.Freeze's talent and leadership is beyond me.
To be fair, I think Sundin is and was awesome. It's just the whole "he deserves it more than Bure" that I think is questionable.

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09-13-2012, 01:51 PM
  #117
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Yeah, Sundin was ahead of every single one of those players in scoring in the 2006 Olympics. He was also the captain of the team. He has been a huge part of Swedens success internationally through the years, and has always been a good performer internationally. He has an additional 3 golds in WC, and three more medals. He is very well known in Sweden for being a leader in our national team.

According to wikipedia, Henrik Sedin has 25 points in 66 senior international games. Daniel Sedin has 24 points in 40 games. Zetterberg has 39 points in 64 games. The almighty Forsberg has 57 points in 63 games. Sundin has 83 points in 69 games.

Do you want to go on with this discussion, or just admit that you were wrong about him being a bad leader and not leading his team to anything?
People too often overlook this. Sundin was an excellent international player and he is a hero in the eyes of his countrymen, which says a lot about him.

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09-13-2012, 01:55 PM
  #118
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To be fair, I think Sundin is and was awesome. It's just the whole "he deserves it more than Bure" that I think is questionable.
Bure was no doubt the better player at their best, but Sundin's career beats out not Bure's. Not to mention he was in the media spotlight for a decade as the captain of the Leafs. There's only a select few players that could handle that type of pressure and Mats was one of them.

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09-13-2012, 01:58 PM
  #119
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A couple of months ago after the Hockey Hall of Fame announced the players going in this year I got the sense on here that some people blamed Mats Sundin for Brendan Shanahan not getting in on his first chance. Now my question is why does no one blame Adma Oates or Pavel Bure? Either of them could have waited at least 1 more year or does Sundin get blammed because he got in the first chance he could and Shanahan didn't. I don't include Joe Sakic because everyone agreed he was making it the first chance he was eligable.

If someone blames Sundin for Shanahan not making the HOF, then they have no idea just how good and consistent Sundin was. He is easily more worthy than Shanahan.

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09-13-2012, 02:22 PM
  #120
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If someone blames Sundin for Shanahan not making the HOF, then they have no idea just how good and consistent Sundin was. He is easily more worthy than Shanahan.
People will begin to have a change of heart when they want their players to make the HOF and Sundin is the best comparable. Guys like Staal and Kopitar are well on their way to Sundinesque careers and there's nothing wrong with that. Being a lock for 70-80pts for 15 years while providing leadership and clutch scoring is a great career no matter how you slice it. Hell, even Sens fans should be happy, because if Sundin didn't get in Alfie wouldn't either.

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09-13-2012, 06:04 PM
  #121
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Too much haters, too lazy to respond.

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09-13-2012, 06:40 PM
  #122
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Too much haters, too lazy to respond.
Just remember Sundin IS a first ballot hall of famer and you'll get through

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09-13-2012, 06:54 PM
  #123
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Sundin stole the plates off my car and made me late for work on two non-consecutive occasions.

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09-13-2012, 07:04 PM
  #124
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Originally Posted by LEAFS FAN 4 EVER View Post
I couldn't have said that any better and at least someone else agrees with me that Bure getting in before Shanahan is a better discussion to have, so I can't believe other people on here rather focus on Sundin getting in.
Sundin and Shanahan don't even compare to Bure unless longevity is your main concern. Bure played long enough to establish himself as one of the best goal-scorers of all time. Sundin was an all-around good player and stayed at a reasonably high level for a long time but was never really the best in any category - he certainly doesn't enter in to any best of all time discussions in any aspect of the game.

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09-13-2012, 07:09 PM
  #125
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Wow... well that counter argument is just... Are you a lawyer by any chance? Cause with that kind of arguing skill, you really should get paid for it!

Would you please inform a lesser man like me how him leading his team to victory is a bad argument for him being a good leader?
oh sorry, I forgot the sarcasm Icon.

I agree with what you are saying.

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