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RDS: Flyers/Habs talking about Subban (Mod Warning #441)
This would be a good basis to start negotiating .
I just find like many other players before him he is the new darling of the NHL and for
reason he is a tremendous player but Galchenyuk and Subban are 2 cornerstones of our franchise you don't think it's unreasonable that most people think we would have to add Price and Pacioretty as well as Galch and Subban in order to get Giroux/Bryzgalov (older G signed to a ridiculous contract).
...you forgot Couturier.
It is a very different (hypothetical) framework for Giroux + Bryzgalov. I don't think anyone would suggest all four would have to come the other way.
I don't understand why you put this in your argument? I was never discussing goals per game during this debate? Also Giroux is not a goal scorer, and I believe every person knows that. He is a pass first, pass second, pass third, look round to pass again, then finally he sighs as he has to shot the puck kinda of guy. Also some of those players had their top goal amounts before Giroux even entered the league. I don't know what you're getting at, but if you're implying Simon Gagne is a better offensive hockey player than Giroux, I can't continue this debate. There really is about 2 players on that list I would take over Giroux right now, and they play for the same damn team.
So by that Logic you're saying that Giroux is the 4th best player in the NHL , only behind
Malkin/Crosby(which you said you wouldn't take due to concussions as if Giroux never had a concussion)/Stamkos...I can't take that seriously when you put him miles ahead of players like Kovalchuk/Gaborik/P.Kane/Tavares/Toews/Perry , if you say it's not even hard in your mind to decide then you have obvious bias (as do I) since it shouldn't be that easy to decide...
It is a very different (hypothetical) framework for Giroux + Bryzgalov. I don't think anyone would suggest all four would have to come the other way.
Look 2 pages behind this all started by me saying overpayment to this post
( I didn't include Couturier my mistake but also didn't include Plekanec & Markov).
Not that Giroux would ever be traded anytime soon, though.
Seriously as if Philly would have a hard time saying Yes to this?? I'll never win this argument I know it , too many people with Giroux colored glasses to think properly.
EA NHL cover curse watchout you've been warned .
Look 2 pages behind this all started by me saying overpayment to this post
Seriously as if Philly would have a hard time saying Yes to this??
1. He/she was pretty clearly kidding (that proposal would put the Flyers about $12 million over the salary cap...)
2. That deal also included Couturier and Giroux. So, again, has anyone actually argued that the price for "just" Giroux or Giroux and Byrz is all four (Price, Subban, Pacioretty, and Galchenyuk)?
1. He/she was pretty clearly kidding (that proposal would put the Flyers about $12 million over the salary cap...)
2. That deal also included Couturier and Giroux. So, again, has anyone actually argued that the price for "just" Giroux or Giroux and Byrz is all four (Price, Subban, Pacioretty, and Galchenyuk)?
I never said it didn't ??? But the deal as presented I'm sure most philly fans would still say no...which is ridiculous...which is also exactly my point! What have you done for me lately is such a dangerous attitude that it can seriously cloud ones judgement.
Only one of the players you listed turned out to be a great player... Toews. Bogosian is obviously a d-man and they take longer to develop though. Huberdeau hasn't played a game in the NHL. Not in a million years would I trade Giroux for Subban + Turris or Subban + Duchene* or Subban + Connolly.
Right and Giroux is already a bonafide #1 center, so why would the Flyers trade him for a guy who may top out at ~60 points?
That's obviously what just about every Flyers fan would love to do and what's going to happen because he's not going to be traded.
*Duchene is a stud... + Subban .............not in a million years wow... http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...d.php?t=855137 how a couple seaons will make people crazy...
**Yes he is but where did I insinuate that it would be a 1 for 1 trade??
Apparently Subban has no value...
Look 2 pages behind this all started by me saying overpayment to this post
( I didn't include Couturier my mistake but also didn't include Plekanec & Markov).
Seriously as if Philly would have a hard time saying Yes to this?? I'll never win this argument I know it , too many people with Giroux colored glasses to think properly.
EA NHL cover curse watchout you've been warned .
Of course it's overpayment, thats the point. Giroux wouldn't be moved for fair value, he's their franchise player.
Are we all seriously taking an attempt at the impossible?
The Flyers will NOT trade Giroux. Yet. He is a bonafide top star in this league right now. Even if he "only" gets 70-80 points next season he is phenomenally valuable. Not even Holmgren could be that stupid.
The Habs would lose Subban and Price and a bit more to start getting Philly remotely interested. Philly would have to add if they wanted Subban, Price, and Pacioretty, though. So, the outcome is obvious: NEITHER team tries to get this deal done. It is an impossibility. Try again in 5 years once we see how all of the main players have developed. Right now? NEITHER team would do it.
I know some Habs fans are desperate to get a top French name on the team, but we should try and find our own top French player in the draft. We have Beaulieu coming up soon, so relax. Eventually we will draft another top scoring French man to make us proud. Let's stop trying to gut our team just to get a top French player on the team.
I never said it didn't ??? But the deal as presented I'm sure most philly fans would still say no...which is ridiculous...which is also exactly my point! What have you done for me lately is such a dangerous attitude that it can seriously cloud ones judgement.
*Duchene is a stud... + Subban .............not in a million years wow... http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...d.php?t=855137 how a couple seaons will make people crazy...
**Yes he is but where did I insinuate that it would be a 1 for 1 trade??
Apparently Subban has no value...
Maybe it'd be a what have you done for me lately attitude if he hadn't been the best player on the Flyers for multiple years, one year stuck behind Richards and Carter. But it's not.
Where did I say that Duchene was a bad player or Subban was worthless? I've said many times that I believe Subban is ridiculously underrated around here. I've said that he's worth Couturier + and if I thought Subban was the perfect fit (in which I don't know if he is), I would do the trade in a second. But trading Giroux would require a MASSIVE overpayment. And Galchneyuk + Subban isn't that. Who's the Flyer's #1 center next year? Couturier (unless he's traded away in this proposal)? Not nearly ready & maybe never will be. Schenn? Not nearly ready and maybe never will be. Briere? Did you see the regular season he just had? Should I go further down the depth chart to the likes of Talbot?
Giroux is the Flyer's franchise player. He's not going to be traded.
And if you want to talk about how people's opinions change, maybe you should just look at this past draft where Grigorenko was supposed to go very high, higher than Galchenyuk, and fell. Does that mean Grigorenko > Galchenyuk?
Maybe it'd be a what have you done for me lately attitude if he hadn't been the best player on the Flyers for multiple years, one year stuck behind Richards and Carter. But it's not.
Where did I say that Duchene was a bad player or Subban was worthless? I've said many times that I believe Subban is ridiculously underrated around here. I've said that he's worth Couturier + and if I thought Subban was the perfect fit (in which I don't know if he is), I would do the trade in a second. But trading Giroux would require a MASSIVE overpayment. And Galchneyuk + Subban isn't that. Who's the Flyer's #1 center next year? Couturier (unless he's traded away in this proposal)? Not nearly ready & maybe never will be. Schenn? Not nearly ready and maybe never will be. Briere? Did you see the regular season he just had? Should I go further down the depth chart to the likes of Talbot?
Giroux is the Flyer's franchise player. He's not going to be traded.
And if you want to talk about how people's opinions change, maybe you should just look at this past draft where Grigorenko was supposed to go very high, higher than Galchenyuk, and fell. Does that mean Grigorenko > Galchenyuk?
There is a huge difference between projection and pure ability , Galchenyuk went 3rd overall Grigorenko slipped there's a reason for this...
There is a huge difference between projection and pure ability , Galchenyuk went 3rd overall Grigorenko slipped there's a reason for this...
... because he was Russian? Because they questioned his worth ethic? You could argue that just as much as his ability. Like Kopitar slipped and he'd definitely go before any forward in the draft after Crosby. Like Couturier slipped, despite should have gone 5th overall IMO. Projections are one thing. Which players in the NHL are EXACTLY like their projections? Because if that's all you had to do when drafting players, they'd be far less Cam Barker's and Zach Hamill's and far more Giroux's and Eberle's. Players actually have to go out and produce. Sam Gagner had a great rookie season. People said after it that if he was in the next draft, he would have gone top 5. That was AFTER his rookie season. Thinking about him in the same class as Doughty, Stamkos, and Pietrangelo is a tad insane.
And Duchene took a major step backwards. I don't think there's anyone who would take Duchene over Giroux. Giroux put up 76 points playing behind Carter and Richards. Duchene's been outplayed by Ryan O'Reilly.
But to compound on what you said, you said that you think Tavares > Giroux. Then you bring up a poll from a few years ago that says Duchene > Giroux. So how about the polls that said Duchene > Tavares? Do you still believe those or do things change?
Actually, far more fans in Philly than two thought JvR would be a superstar. Heck, I even remember some "writer" called Chris Shafer (spelling?) claiming JvR would be worth more than either Price or Halak when I suggested a Halak for JvR deal at the deadline before the year Leighton blew it for you.
A few points in response to this...Price or Halak hadn't done nearly as much to prove their worth as they have currently at that point (I for one was still in favor a Price for JVR swap, but I tend to have a goalie-centric view of the game and think Price is amamzing). Also the jury is still out on JVR, he has shown ability to dominate and were it not for a ridiculous string of injuries last year we would have a better idea where he's at (he was producing very well at the start of the year). I have a feeling he is going to make us really regret trading him this year.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Drydenwasthebest
All this just to point out that Couturier looks great, but he only put up 28 points and had a great playoff series. It is why I compare him more to Eller than some might want to consider. They played very similar throughout the year, in very similar situations, with similar quality linemates, scored the same amount of points, etc...The main difference being that Couturier played on a more offensive minded team.
Lars Eller spent more time on ice with Subban and Gorges (the "top pairing") than any other Habs. Couturier spent the most time on ice with Coburn and whoever his d partner was at the time (Matt Carle and Andrej Mezsaros are in 4th and 5th respectively). I'd call that even, more or less. Eller's two most common forward partners were Kostitsyn and Moen (two very capable third liners). Couturier's two most common were Maxime Talbot and Rinaldo (one very capable third liner and one little, brain-dead gorilla who shouldn't be in the NHL).
QualComp
Eller .031
Couturier .048
Off. Zone start% - finish%
Eller 48.3 - 50.9
Couturier 40.3 - 45.4
Corsi
Eller -4.81
Couturier -.51
So at age 18, Couturier was asked to start in his own zone more often, against better competition, with one inferior winger, and a far inferior goalie playing behind him. Couturier finished the season +18. Lars Eller, at 22 years old, with the advantages listed was -5. I think you're kidding yourself if you think their potential or value is the same at the moment. One of these guys is a good, young third liner, and one of them is an excellent prospect who was very effective this season on his team's third line. Surely you see the difference.
**No you can't say that about every player...but a top 3 pick is exactly what it announces itself as..if we go by probability I would say there is a very good chance Galchenyuk becomes just as good as Giroux or at least very close. I do agree that Giroux has been a playoff beast but maybe having your offensive depth helped him quite a bit I think he is going to miss Jagr more then most realize and that Hartnell might not even crack 30 Goals this season.
I know giroux is the new flavor of the month but what do you expect to receive
for Giroux how about Malkin and Letang or not enough?
One very strong season doesnt make him Hossa/Kovalchuk in his prime...
What was return on Hossa/Kovalchuk[Yes I know contract's weren't same but it gives you an idea]? We will talk next summer when your fanbase can be
reasonable...I have a feeling I'll review this thread in a couple seasons and have
a nice chuckle.(I saw the thread where most wouldn't(PHI fans) trade Giroux
for Crosby straight up haha it made my day.
I really like Giroux he is a very good young player but to think that giving a 40-50 pt 23 year old Subban and an already drafted 2011 3rd round pick (we didn't pick Cam Barker...) who was touted by many scouts as being as good as Nail.
If Panthers offered you Kulikov and Huberdeau for Giroux you would say no?[very similar value maybe a slight nod to Panthers].
Subban
Galchenyuk
1st 2013
for
Giroux
Philly would take this and run....or Homer deserves the Garth Snow Award for Excellence as GM...
You must be out of your mind! There really is nothing else to be said other than if Holmgren did this deal he would be run out of town. Brutal proposal.
A few points in response to this...Price or Halak hadn't done nearly as much to prove their worth as they have currently at that point (I for one was still in favor a Price for JVR swap, but I tend to have a goalie-centric view of the game and think Price is amamzing). Also the jury is still out on JVR, he has shown ability to dominate and were it not for a ridiculous string of injuries last year we would have a better idea where he's at (he was producing very well at the start of the year). I have a feeling he is going to make us really regret trading him this year.
Lars Eller spent more time on ice with Subban and Gorges (the "top pairing") than any other Habs. Couturier spent the most time on ice with Coburn and whoever his d partner was at the time (Matt Carle and Andrej Mezsaros are in 4th and 5th respectively). I'd call that even, more or less. Eller's two most common forward partners were Kostitsyn and Moen (two very capable third liners). Couturier's two most common were Maxime Talbot and Rinaldo (one very capable third liner and one little, brain-dead gorilla who shouldn't be in the NHL).
QualComp
Eller .031
Couturier .048
Off. Zone start% - finish%
Eller 48.3 - 50.9
Couturier 40.3 - 45.4
Corsi
Eller -4.81
Couturier -.51
So at age 18, Couturier was asked to start in his own zone more often, against better competition, with one inferior winger, and a far inferior goalie playing behind him. Couturier finished the season +18. Lars Eller, at 22 years old, with the advantages listed was -5. I think you're kidding yourself if you think their potential or value is the same at the moment. One of these guys is a good, young third liner, and one of them is an excellent prospect who was very effective this season on his team's third line. Surely you see the difference.
As I have said, I think Couturier is better, but others might disagree. They are similar. I would add to Eller to get Couturier, but do not think I would be willing to add enough to make it worthwhile for Philly.
As I have said, I think Couturier is better, but others might disagree. They are similar. I would add to Eller to get Couturier, but do not think I would be willing to add enough to make it worthwhile for Philly.
There's the rub, I guess. Whether we could find a small minority that would disagree is not so important IMO, you could find someone to disagree with anything. I disagree with the idea that they're very similar players at all. They're not, outside of the fact that they played the traditional "shut down", third line role last year. Couturier has the ability to be more than that, and was far better at it, at a younger age. Eller also hasn't ever had a level of offensive production at lower levels or displayed skill at the NHL level to make anyone think he could be a highly productive top six center.
As I have said, I think Couturier is better, but others might disagree. They are similar. I would add to Eller to get Couturier, but do not think I would be willing to add enough to make it worthwhile for Philly.
Couturier will be a better player than Eller IMO.
Last edited by PayItForward: 09-11-2012 at 08:50 PM.
There's the rub, I guess. Whether we could find a small minority that would disagree is not so important IMO, you could find someone to disagree with anything. I disagree with the idea that they're very similar players at all. They're not, outside of the fact that they played the traditional "shut down", third line role last year. Couturier has the ability to be more than that, and was far better at it, at a younger age. Eller also hasn't ever had a level of offensive production at lower levels or displayed skill at the NHL level to make anyone think he could be a highly productive top six center.
What are you talking about? Eller was a very productive junior player in his draft year (1.5 pts/game). After his junior season (draft year) he was promoted to the SEL and played there for 2 seasons. He's been playing against men since he was 18 years old.
Eller has top-6 potential. Its why he was drafted 13th overall.
What are you talking about? Eller was a very productive junior player in his draft year (1.5 pts/game). After his junior season (draft year) he was promoted to the SEL and played there for 2 seasons. He's been playing against men since he was 18 years old.
Eller has top-6 potential. Its why he was drafted 13th overall.
I'm not seeing his junior season here, and I don't see that offensive ability when I watch him play.
EDIT: Here it has his stats for the Swedish U20 league, where he was as productive as you say for 39 games. How does the level of competition there compare with Canadian juniors?
I'm not seeing his junior season here, and I don't see that offensive ability when I watch him play.
EDIT: Here it has his stats for the Swedish U20 league. How does the level of competition there compare with Canadian juniors?
Look on the NHL site or the elite prospects site for his junior stats. He was outstanding in junior - so good that he was promoted to the SEL immediately following his draft. He excelled in the WJC's and in the WC's for Denmark (playing against NHL pros). In the NHL Eller has never been paired with top-6 wingers. He had Moen, Darche and Palushaj as wingers and now and then AK was paired with him. Eller was at his best when he played with AK and Moen where most of his offense was from.
Eller is young and developing steadily. He easily has top-6 potential but has never had an opportunity to play with top-6 wingers. This could change as early as this season (if there is a season).
As for how does the U20 Swedish league compare to Canadian juniors? Why not check to see who won the WJHC this past year and then you do the math...
Look on the NHL site or the elite prospects site for his junior stats. He was outstanding in junior - so good that he was promoted to the SEL immediately following his draft. He excelled in the WJC's and in the WC's for Denmark (playing against NHL pros). In the NHL Eller has never been paired with top-6 wingers. He had Moen, Darche and Palushaj as wingers and now and then AK was paired with him. Eller was at his best when he played with AK and Moen where most of his offense was from.
Eller is young and developing steadily. He easily has top-6 potential but has never had an opportunity to play with top-6 wingers. This could change as early as this season (if there is a season).
As for how does the U20 Swedish league compare to Canadian juniors? Why not check to see who won the WJHC this past year and then you do the math...
Aside from one season in the Swedish junior league (55 points in 39 games), I'm not seeing any really remarkable offensive production. Further, my original statement was made in the context of criticizing the idea that Eller is a player of comparable potential and ability to Couturier. Sean Couturier had back to back 96 point seasons in a tougher junior league (one of which, as we all know, was played with mono). Their records just aren't very comparable. Their last seasons are comparable at a superficial level, but the comparison still doesn't favor Eller despite the fact that he's four years further along and playing with better wingers and a better goalie.
Also, AK was his second most played with linemate (that wasn't a defenseman). I'm aware of who won the WJHC. How many of Sweden's players in that tournament were playing in Canadian Junior leagues? Look, I'm not saying Eller sucks, and I understand the urge to defend him, but the players' value at present just isn't that comparable or close.
Last edited by Giroux tha Damaja: 09-11-2012 at 09:37 PM.
I said that that package would gut Montreal...and that I'm still not sure Philly would take it. The challenge was to come up with a package from Montreal to get Giroux + Couturier, starting with Subban and Price. I took the liberty of adding Bryzgalov, since in the hypothetical scenario, he would have to go with Giroux and Couturier.
Where would you start?
The only piece that seems even modestly negotiable would be Pacioretty. Swapping him with Plekanec might ease the hit on Montreal--but it would be less appealing to the Flyers.
If you would be OK with Subban, Price, Galchenyuk and Plekanec for Giroux, Couturier and Bryz then it's a deal I would make from a Habs standpoint(probably not a deal other Habs fans and Habs management would do however).
Or you are just being obtuse and ignoring the facts because you are too lazy to research it.
I'm basing my opinion far more upon actually watching him play. I only reference his junior career to see why people think he has the potential to be a good offensive producer in the NHL, because there's nothing I'm seeing in his play at the NHL level to suggest it. Essentially trying to play devil's advocate for the other side.
His junior career still isn't impressive for an NHL player. Hell, Max Talbot was a great junior player and he can't get off the third line, there's lots of guys like that. Eller is a good player, and I don't want to trash him, but there's not much reason to think he's going to be a first liner, or even a good second liner at this point.
Quote:
Originally Posted by FanHabtic
Also questioning the Swedish U20 league in a year when Sweden won the WJHC....
Again, how many of their best players from that team were playing on Canadian Junior teams or higher level Swedish leagues?
They're all either from Canadian Juniors programs, Elitserien or Allsvenskan. Not seeing a single Swedish U20 club represented on that roster. So when Sweden wants to send their players over to compete against Canada's best, they're not pulling guys out of their junior leagues, where Eller enjoyed his best production. Therefor, as I was saying, Eller's juniors career, which wasn't even comparable with Couturier's to begin with, was played in a weaker league.
Last edited by Giroux tha Damaja: 09-11-2012 at 10:00 PM.
Reason: some spelling and grammar correction plus added the link
I'm basing my opinion for more upon actually watching him play. I only reference his junior career to see why people think he has the potential to be a good offensive producer in the NHL, because there's nothing I'm seeing in his play at the NHL level to suggest it. Essentially trying to play devil's advocate for the other side.
His junior career still isn't impressive for an NHL player. Hell, Max Talbot was a great junior player and he can't get off the third line, there's lots of guys like that. Eller is a good player, and I don't want to trash him, but there's not much reason to think he's going to be a first liner, or even a good second liner at this point.
First off his junior stats in his draft season was stellar and impressive for any player whether NHL, SEL or other. Sure Max Talbot was a good junior player. So was Claude Giroux. What's your point?
On one hand you state that you don't want to trash Eller then you go on to say he will never be a good second liner at this point. The kid is 23 years old. He's a euro playing in the NHL who needed time to adjust to the North American game. He improved significantly throughout the season and the majority of his production came in the 2nd half of the season after being paired with Andrei Kostitsyn and given more ice-time. Eller was used primarly in a 3rd line defensive role as he was behind Pleks and David Desharnais (who had a breakout season) on the depth chart.
Clearly you haven't tracked Eller's play throughout the season.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Giroux tha Damaja
Again, how many of their best players from that team were playing on Canadian Junior teams?
4 out of 23 players (of which 1 was a backup goaltender).
