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RDS: Flyers/Habs talking about Subban (Mod Warning #441)

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08-28-2012, 03:01 PM
  #201
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Originally Posted by McNasty View Post
I agree, but as I said in a different post the + has to come from their lineup because of their depleted prospect pool. It's different if it's Couturier a 1st and a prospect, than the likely package of Couturier + Read + 1st simply because of the huge hole it creates in their lineup.
That is a good point. They probably wanted NHL ready guys or young roster players.

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08-28-2012, 03:08 PM
  #202
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Originally Posted by jeh82 View Post
I'm not sure that's true from the Flyers end--or at least it isn't as clear cut as you're suggesting.

Couturier is hands-down the team's best defensive forward--and the team doesn't have that many good defensive forwards. Losing him would be a significant blow to the overall team defense, as well as special / situational play.

I'm not sure that loss would be offset by Subban's addition, absent some other move.
Its just my opinion but adding Subban and taking Couts away from the Flyers makes them a much stronger team. They have more than enough young guys (including Subban) who can make up the point difference.

As far as a defensive forward, Couts is great no doubt. Someone else can fill that role and if Subban was added to their d-core, the hole wouldnt be as big.

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08-28-2012, 03:11 PM
  #203
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Originally Posted by sheed36 View Post
I bet Bergevin feels the same way about Subban and after drafting Galchenyuk as his future center keeping Subban should be a priority.
Agreed thats what I was getting at, theres just no trade to be made here

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08-28-2012, 03:18 PM
  #204
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Originally Posted by Sorry View Post
I agree with most of what you said but Homer is going to throw the bank at whatever decent defenseman comes on the market next year, it's obvious. So he will overpay, just not with prospects. Which is where I disagree, Couturiers a decent chip, not a deal breaker. Any deal involving him straight up for a good young defenseman is not overpaying, it's called fair value. Or, in my opinion, it's highway robbery for you guys because Couturier is at least five years from being an impact offensively, aka a third line center.
Glad to see you could enter the conversation from a reasonable, unbiased viewpoint.

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08-28-2012, 03:21 PM
  #205
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Originally Posted by HabsRock View Post
Its just my opinion but adding Subban and taking Couts away from the Flyers makes them a much stronger team. They have more than enough young guys (including Subban) who can make up the point difference.

As far as a defensive forward, Couts is great no doubt. Someone else can fill that role and if Subban was added to their d-core, the hole wouldnt be as big.
It's not the points difference that would bring the concern, it would be the depleted defense amongst the forwards negating some of the help Subban brings as well as the giant chunk of cap space that's eaten up. Keep Couturier and you have $X million to spend elsewhere on the roster that you don't have if you trade/extend Subban. There's a balancing act there.

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08-28-2012, 03:25 PM
  #206
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Philly wouldn't trade Couturier for Shea Weber, why would they trade him for Subban.
Maybe if Montreal adds Price Holmgren would consider it

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08-28-2012, 03:28 PM
  #207
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Subban easily the more valuable player.

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08-28-2012, 04:00 PM
  #208
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Originally Posted by jeh82 View Post
I'm not sure that's true from the Flyers end--or at least it isn't as clear cut as you're suggesting.

Couturier is hands-down the team's best defensive forward--and the team doesn't have that many good defensive forwards. Losing him would be a significant blow to the overall team defense, as well as special / situational play.

I'm not sure that loss would be offset by Subban's addition, absent some other move.
The loss would be catastrophic for the Habs. You wouldn't have Subban on the ice who averaged over 24 minutes of ice time/game (and closer to 27 minutes/game in the 2nd half of the season) and was a difference maker both offensively and defensively. Couturier's 14:30 minutes of average ice-time wouldn't make up for the loss of Subban.

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08-28-2012, 04:06 PM
  #209
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Originally Posted by HedMonster 77 View Post
Philly wouldn't trade Couturier for Shea Weber, why would they trade him for Subban.
Probably why they didn't get Weber

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08-28-2012, 04:10 PM
  #210
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Originally Posted by Jules Winnfield View Post
Probably why they didn't get Weber
Yep and why Nashville is willing to pay 26 million in uninsured bonus money (over the course of a few seasons) to retain Weber. Obviously the trade offer that Philly provided wasn't even close!

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08-28-2012, 04:46 PM
  #211
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Originally Posted by FanHabtic View Post
The loss would be catastrophic for the Habs. You wouldn't have Subban on the ice who averaged over 24 minutes of ice time/game (and closer to 27 minutes/game in the 2nd half of the season) and was a difference maker both offensively and defensively. Couturier's 14:30 minutes of average ice-time wouldn't make up for the loss of Subban.
I wasn't arguing it would be worse for the Flyers than Montreal--I was arguing that the Flyers wouldn't obviously be a better overall team after the proposed swap.

Lose-lose?

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08-28-2012, 04:48 PM
  #212
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Originally Posted by jeh82 View Post
I wasn't arguing it would be worse for the Flyers than Montreal--I was arguing that the Flyers wouldn't obviously be a better overall team after the proposed swap.

Lose-lose?
You honestly don't think the Flyers would be an improved team with Subban's 24+ minutes on a back-end that is lacking a top-pairing quality defender with offensive ability potential?

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08-28-2012, 04:58 PM
  #213
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Originally Posted by Kershaw View Post
Subban easily the more valuable player.
To the Habs Subban would be way more valuable than what Couturier would be since they have no one who could play Subban's huge minutes on D.. Also the Habs already have Eller who showed glimpses of providing some decent defensive abilities last year along with some offensive potential as well..

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08-28-2012, 05:02 PM
  #214
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Originally Posted by FanHabtic View Post
You honestly don't think the Flyers would be an improved team with Subban's 24+ minutes on a back-end that is lacking a top-pairing quality defender with offensive ability potential?
Matt Carle played 24+ minutes a game. He isn't Subban's level offensively, but he's better defensively. The team let him walk because of his cost, but also because they were comfortable with the other options.

To answer your question, there's no question that the defensive corp would benefit tremendously from a player of his skills; there's also no question that the forwards would suffer from the loss of Couturier, the team's best defensive forward.

Unless they shift Schenn back to C--he played W primarily last year--the other two top-9 centers are Giroux and Briere. While Giroux can hold his own defensively, he can't be saddled with that responsibility and expected to carry the offensive. Briere, of course, is one of the worst defensive forwards in the league.

Given the role the latter played on the team last year, and what was expected going forward, no, I'm not convinced, on balance, that a straight swap makes the Flyers a better team overall, absent some other move. That's not even taking into account Couturier's long-term projection as a 1B/2A-type center.

That's not to say he's more valuable than Subban, or that it would have to be "Subban +" to get him--I don't think that at all--just that Couturier, for the role he plays for the Flyers, might well mean more

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08-28-2012, 05:18 PM
  #215
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jeh82 View Post
Matt Carle played 24+ minutes a game. He isn't Subban's level offensively, but he's better defensively. The team let him walk because of his cost, but also because they were comfortable with the other options.

To answer your question, there's no question that the defensive corp would benefit tremendously from a player of his skills; there's also no question that the forwards would suffer from the loss of Couturier, the team's best defensive forward.

Unless they shift Schenn back to C--he played W primarily last year--the other two top-9 centers are Giroux and Briere. While Giroux can hold his own defensively, he can't be saddled with that responsibility and expected to carry the offensive. Briere, of course, is one of the worst defensive forwards in the league.

Given the role the latter played on the team last year, and what was expected going forward, no, I'm not convinced, on balance, that a straight swap makes the Flyers a better team overall, absent some other move. That's not even taking into account Couturier's long-term projection as a 1B/2A-type center.

That's not to say he's more valuable than Subban, or that it would have to be "Subban +" to get him--I don't think that at all--just that Couturier, for the role he plays for the Flyers, might well mean more
To better understand Subban's impact on the game, note the following facts as taken from a recent article:

He led his team in both relative Corsi and Corsi On, while playing against the second highest quality of competition (him and Josh Gorges did the heavy lifting by a long-shot) and, like most Montreal players, was forced to start way more shifts in the defensive than the offensive zone. I don’t like to use +/- numbers because they often tell the wrong story, but if you look at player numbers with and without Subban, you see that Erik Cole was +22 while on the ice with Subban, Max Pacioretty was +15, Tomas Plekanec was -1 and David Desharnais was +22. Without, the four were, respectively -8, -9, -11 and -7.

http://blogs.thescore.com/nhl/2012/0...r-some-reason/

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08-28-2012, 05:21 PM
  #216
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Id say it would be a pretty even trade. I think Philly would have to add to get it done only because PK Subban has shown more in his time in the NHL than Couturier has. However like some have said, the Flyers arent willing to give him up. So this trade would never happen. Really the Flyers wont be able to do any kind of big trade without giving up Couturier.

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08-28-2012, 05:24 PM
  #217
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I just wonder if PK Subban were a Flyer, how would Flyers fans react to trading him to Montreal if the Habs had Couturier?


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08-28-2012, 05:28 PM
  #218
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Originally Posted by Jules Winnfield View Post
I just wonder if PK Subban were a Flyer, how would Flyers fans react to trading him to Montreal if the Habs had Couturier?

I'm not sure I follow.

I don't believe a Flyers fan started this thread. I think the majority--though not all--acknowledge that the Flyers would have to add to balance the value, though there's some disagree over how much. Mostly, though, there isn't a strong interest in strengthening one part of the team at the expense of weakening the other, and to be fair, if you read through the various D-to-Philly threads, most of (us) have been pretty consistent in the hesitancy / unwillingness to move Couturier.

If you're saying that the Flyers fans should want to do the deal, then I guess that's your prerogative, but don't you think they're in a better position to know what the loss of Couturier would mean than others?

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08-28-2012, 05:32 PM
  #219
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Id say it would be a pretty even trade. I think Philly would have to add to get it done only because PK Subban has shown more in his time in the NHL than Couturier has. However like some have said, the Flyers arent willing to give him up. So this trade would never happen. Really the Flyers wont be able to do any kind of big trade without giving up Couturier.
For overall team needs it wouldn't be even from the Habs standpoint IMO.. The loss of Subban on the Habs defense would be huge since there's no one to replace him and his minutes.. Couturier is a good player but adding him and losing Subban doesn't really help the Habs at all IMO.

Habs fans deem Subban to important to their team to move and Flyer fans feel the same about their guy. There is no deal to be had between these 2..

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08-28-2012, 05:36 PM
  #220
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1) Flyers wouldn't do Price for Couturier. Not in real life at least. We have Bryzgalov. Regardless of any fans opinion of him on this site he is widely believed to be a capable starter and he had some of the best post-AS break numbers in the NHL last season. Holmgren and company aren't going to just give up on Bryz one season into his contract and I wouldn't either.

2) Couturier and Subban have equal value, but neither team would trade them even if it were for each other. They're both too high on them as they should be.

3) The Flyers defensive personnel is pretty good on paper actually. Coburn, Grossmann, Schenn, Timonen, Meszaros, Gustafsson is a pretty decent top six. The problem comes to team defense and the loss of Pronger. Relying on Carle so much probably wasn't very good either. Carle is gone now though and the team now knows it has to focus on their team defense to go anywhere. The Pronger problem was almost solved by almost bringing in Weber, but as it is right now there's no solution to that. Regardless, my point is that we don't need a d-man that badly, especially if we're giving up our best defensive forward.

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08-28-2012, 05:43 PM
  #221
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Originally Posted by jeh82 View Post
I'm not sure I follow.

I don't believe a Flyers fan started this thread. I think the majority--though not all, acknowledge that the Flyers would have to add to balance the value, though there's some disagree over how much. Mostly, though, there isn't a strong interest in strengthening one part of the team at the expense of weakening the other, and to be fair, if you read through the various D-to-Philly threads, most of (us) have been pretty consistent in the hesitancy / unwillingness to move Couturier.

If you're saying that the Flyers fans should want to do the deal, then I guess that's your prerogative, but don't you think they're in a better position to know what the loss of Couturier would mean than others?
I'm just looking at it like this. PK Subban is one of the most talented young D in the league. He's a pain in the ass to play against. When I think of Flyers over the years and the kind of heartbeat they have on their team for players, Subban would be a perfect Flyer IMO. He's good, gets under your skin in a hurry, and is a major impact player that plays a ton of minutes in all aspects of the game.

Couturier is a good young player but the Flyers already have Giroux, Briere, and Schenn at C. With Pronger's health, Subban would be a perfect young D to the team without really sacrificing the depth at center.

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08-28-2012, 05:55 PM
  #222
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Originally Posted by Jules Winnfield View Post
I'm just looking at it like this. PK Subban is one of the most talented young D in the league. He's a pain in the ass to play against. When I think of Flyers over the years and the kind of heartbeat they have on their team for players, Subban would be a perfect Flyer IMO. He's good, gets under your skin in a hurry, and is a major impact player that plays a ton of minutes in all aspects of the game.

Couturier is a good young player but the Flyers already have Giroux, Briere, and Schenn at C. With Pronger's health, Subban would be a perfect young D to the team without really sacrificing the depth at center.
Briere's only here a few more years and the Flyers aren't afraid of transitioning centers to wing if they have to. They did it with Giroux in the past. Point is that the Flyers management will figure it out quite easily probably. They obviously aren't afraid of having too much depth if their 1st rounder this year was spent on another center (Laughton).

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08-28-2012, 06:15 PM
  #223
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Clearly one of the best thread I saw until I come here

I think the value is there, but I can't see the habs trade Subban because they need him badly and they just drafted galchenyuk at center

And I think Couturier is not just a good young player but he's also very respected by his teammates especially Giroux who repeated few times that Couts will become a ''great'' player

So we can speak about the value of both players but that deal will not happen.

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08-28-2012, 06:30 PM
  #224
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Originally Posted by sheed36 View Post
For overall team needs it wouldn't be even from the Habs standpoint IMO.. The loss of Subban on the Habs defense would be huge since there's no one to replace him and his minutes.. Couturier is a good player but adding him and losing Subban doesn't really help the Habs at all IMO.

Habs fans deem Subban to important to their team to move and Flyer fans feel the same about their guy. There is no deal to be had between these 2..
I totally agree, it is like trading a #1 D (cuz Subban is a #1 D with the habs) for a #3 center... after that it all depend of their progression.

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08-28-2012, 06:41 PM
  #225
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After reading the Couturier article on the Flyers board I can see why Flyer fans are so high on him.. Outside of watching him in last years playoffs and a few other Flyer games as Couturier really earned himself a reputation as an "elite" shutdown center after only 1 season like that article states? Who gave him such high praise? Fans? His peers? Coaches?

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