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Gillis: Potential Return For Luongo May Not Improve Canucks **Mod Warning #86**

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Old
09-13-2012, 04:09 PM
  #226
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Originally Posted by Beville View Post
The problem I see with Vancouver...

Is that they didn't choose to move Schneider when they had the opportunity, now they're stuck in this position of knowing that need to unload Luongo's contract...

Basically, they got themselves in this position...
Yea we did. Im sure one of them would've got moved at the deadline if we didn't get garbage proposals

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09-13-2012, 04:12 PM
  #227
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Originally Posted by Beville View Post
The problem I see with Vancouver...

Is that they didn't choose to move Schneider when they had the opportunity, now they're stuck in this position of knowing that need to unload Luongo's contract...

Basically, they got themselves in this position...
Poor Vancouver is now stuck with a better goaltender. Gotta feel for them

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09-13-2012, 04:13 PM
  #228
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There are only four possible destinations for Luongo, and there have always only been four. Chicago, Florida, Toronto or Vancouver.

Gillis likely wouldn't want to deal Luongo to a heated rival.
option: Chicago, gone.

Florida isn't giving into Gillis' demands of their top prospects(Bjugstad, Huberdeau, Howden, Shore etc)
option: Florida, gone.

Toronto seemingly a) won't deal any of their top guys b) the ones they will deal, it appears Gillis isn't interested.
option: Toronto, gone.

Which leaves option D, Vancouver. He'll be a Canuck at least up until the trade deadline, when a) another team's starter goes down and is desperate, willing to pay Vancouver's demands...or b) when Vancouver lowers the asking price.

Done.

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09-13-2012, 04:17 PM
  #229
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Originally Posted by The Hockey Hitman View Post
There are only four possible destinations for Luongo, and there have always only been four. Chicago, Florida, Toronto or Vancouver.

Gillis likely wouldn't want to deal Luongo to a heated rival.
option: Chicago, gone.

Florida isn't giving into Gillis' demands of their top prospects(Bjugstad, Huberdeau, Howden, Shore etc)
option: Florida, gone.

Toronto seemingly a) won't deal any of their top guys b) the ones they will deal, it appears Gillis isn't interested.
option: Toronto, gone.

Which leaves option D, Vancouver. He'll be a Canuck at least up until the trade deadline, when a) another team's starter goes down and is desperate, willing to pay Vancouver's demands...or b) when Vancouver lowers the asking price.

Done.
I disagree. Because Florida and Toronto have not agreed to a deal yet does not mean one won't happen. I think all that we can say at this time is that Vancouver feels those teams aren't offering enough and those teams feel Vancouver is asking too much. I'm pretty confident that Toronto doesn't plan to go with Reimer and Scrivens the whole year and, IMO, he would provide an upgrade for Florida. This seems to be playing out like most deals involving elite players with big contracts.

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09-13-2012, 04:25 PM
  #230
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Originally Posted by Barney Gumble View Post
Irrelevant really as neither team would be anywhere near a "lottery pick team" (Toronto with Luongo). What's really the difference between a few draft positions in the mid-point of a drafting round (even the 1st round)? Maybe a mid-round pick (eg., not much).
Huh?? You totally lost me. I was commenting on someone stating "With Luongo, TO is better than Fla" Doesn't have much to do with draft positions.

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09-13-2012, 04:25 PM
  #231
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Originally Posted by Bleach Clean View Post
To expand on this, I think that third team is going to be in on Theodore, Raymond and/or Upshall. In some capacity. A team that could use a combination of those players... The cap will also be a consideration, of course.

So what team could use forward depth or a decent goalie? CLB springs to mind, but they would have to work around Mason's contract. LWers and a goalie... CHI? TBay and WSH are still uncertain. Although Holtby seemed impressive, Lindback is a wildcard. Perhaps ANA could use some forward depth... MIN if the league re-aligns...NYI, PHX, PIT etc... The possibilities are there.

The one certainty is that Gillis will do his utmost to get Lu to FLA. The destination team is very likely to be them. Also, he has accommodated other players in the past in this fashion (Hordichuk, O'Brien). Him and Tallon have worked out multiple deals already. Lu wants to go back to his old haunts. And so, if these two teams are a distance apart on their prices, the third team could possibly bridge the gap.

Something like this:

VAN:
In: Pure futures (Org. needs, not team needs)
Out: Luongo +/- Raymond

Team X:
In: Upshall, Theodore +/- Raymond
Out: Futures only

FLA:
In: Luongo +/- NHL player(s)
Out: Futures +/- Upshall and/or Theodore


That would be the structure. Along these lines, CLB makes an excellent "middle man" because they have the extra 1st rounders for this year to give up for the "futures" part. In exchange, they get more goaltending insurance and depth enough to construct another NHL line. Granted, price points may vary. But the late 1sts are all but useless to them I would imagine. Getting NHLers would seem like a coup for them if it all worked out...
Given that we already have enough depth to construct three NHL lines, that's definitely of some interest. The question would be, though, how much we'd have to give up in futures. There's limits to what we would find acceptable - particularly anything that takes us out of the first round entirely.

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Old
09-13-2012, 04:31 PM
  #232
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Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
Perhaps the reason why your draft picks were so low were because of your bad goaltending?

And Burke knows this?
It was definitely a big part of it but again, do you take that chance? Burke has done little this off-season to improve the team, so essentially he would be banking on player development and Luongo to not finish in the bottom third of the league. What happens if Luongo gets injured? Does Vancouver end up with a top 5 pick in what has the potential to be one of the best drafts in the last decade?

It would be all kinds of stupid to trade the 2013 1st.

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09-13-2012, 04:34 PM
  #233
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Neither will Toronto lose a roster player. Also, the difference in goaltending between Reimer and Luongo is greater than that between Luongo and Theodore, so that also matters.
You never know whether or not TO loses a roster player. Burke may give Gillis a good player in the trade for Luongo,who knows?
While I do think Luongo is an elite goaltender and he improves any team he plays on, I think Theo/Clemmer/Markstrom can do just fine in Fla. Our goaltending is better than TO's goaltending as well as the Panthers have a very well rounded team who has gained playoff experience, and have gelled as a team. We also didn't lose much in the offseason, and have gained some *hopeful* and promising offense. Luongo may improve TO, but our goaltending did just fine last season and can certainly handle the work-load.

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Old
09-13-2012, 04:58 PM
  #234
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Originally Posted by Pantherfan12 View Post
You never know whether or not TO loses a roster player. Burke may give Gillis a good player in the trade for Luongo,who knows?
While I do think Luongo is an elite goaltender and he improves any team he plays on, I think Theo/Clemmer/Markstrom can do just fine in Fla. Our goaltending is better than TO's goaltending as well as the Panthers have a very well rounded team who has gained playoff experience, and have gelled as a team. We also didn't lose much in the offseason, and have gained some *hopeful* and promising offense. Luongo may improve TO, but our goaltending did just fine last season and can certainly handle the work-load.
No offense but I doubt the Panthers even make the playoffs this season. I do agree that Florida's goaltending is much better than Toronto's though. I actually think Toronto has the worst duo in the league so I think Luongo ends up in Toronto when it's all said and done.

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09-13-2012, 05:10 PM
  #235
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Originally Posted by KingJet View Post
Don't expect a Luongo trade by the 16th, and it will probably be Markstrom to Toronto.

Markstrom for MacArthur, 3rd and Percy

Luongo for Matthias, MacArthur and 1st 2013
Toronto says yes please; however, i just don't see the reality in this deal. Good value all around though (i'd think anyways)

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09-13-2012, 05:19 PM
  #236
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Thanks for trying to explain to me what's best for Vancouver, but we would be fine with a return of picks/prospects if that's where the value is. Gillis has said on multiple occasions that he would like to add some younger players to the organization.
So Vancouver is unlike any team in history that's close to a Stanley Cup? They're going to start selling at the deadline?

Gillis of course wants younger players, they tend to be pretty easy on the salary cap too. However, the key there is players, and NHL players don't get undervalued at the deadline.

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09-13-2012, 05:52 PM
  #237
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Originally Posted by CanuckLuck View Post
No offense but I doubt the Panthers even make the playoffs this season. I do agree that Florida's goaltending is much better than Toronto's though. I actually think Toronto has the worst duo in the league so I think Luongo ends up in Toronto when it's all said and done.
None taken, most thought we'd finish about last last season, too. Most of us don't care, that's why they play the games.

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09-13-2012, 05:56 PM
  #238
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None taken, most thought we'd finish about last last season, too. Most of us don't care, that's why they play the games.
I agree. Who knows what happens next season. You guys have to be pretty excited about the future though with some great prospects coming up. It should be an exciting young team to watch.

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09-13-2012, 05:56 PM
  #239
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Originally Posted by seanlinden View Post
So Vancouver is unlike any team in history that's close to a Stanley Cup? They're going to start selling at the deadline?

Gillis of course wants younger players, they tend to be pretty easy on the salary cap too. However, the key there is players, and NHL players don't get undervalued at the deadline.
Of course this situation is different. I mean, how many teams that are close to a Stanley Cup have been actively shopping their all star goalie in the offseason?

The whole premise behind this thread is Gillis's statement that a trade for Luongo might not improve the team. I can't see the logic behind you insisting that any mid-season trade would require valued, contributing players coming back to Vancouver.

I don't see this discussion of ours going any further given your stance, sorry.

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09-13-2012, 06:10 PM
  #240
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Given that we already have enough depth to construct three NHL lines, that's definitely of some interest. The question would be, though, how much we'd have to give up in futures. There's limits to what we would find acceptable - particularly anything that takes us out of the first round entirely.

I meant that CLB could receive another NHL line worth of players. For instance, if they agreed to take on Raymond and Upshall, without subtracting from their roster, that alone greatly improves their depth.



FLA needs to move salary and VAN doesn't necessarily want to take any on. So perhaps CLB can take on the salary + Raymond and give up futures. If Upshall's contract is viewed as a cap dump (could bounce back), and Raymond balances his negative value, would one late first be out of line?


Essentially, VAN takes on Upshall and/or Theodore only to deal both to CLB, along with Raymond, to free up salary immediately after the deal with FLA... Perhaps CLB also kicks back a late pick to FLA for Theo? This could definitely work. CLB has the assets to be a player in this.

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09-13-2012, 06:16 PM
  #241
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I agree. Who knows what happens next season. You guys have to be pretty excited about the future though with some great prospects coming up. It should be an exciting young team to watch.
Thanks man. After enduring 13 years of utter failure, I blame previous owner, this is a fun time. Tallon's been killing it.

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09-13-2012, 06:16 PM
  #242
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Of course this situation is different. I mean, how many teams that are close to a Stanley Cup have been actively shopping their all star goalie in the offseason?

The whole premise behind this thread is Gillis's statement that a trade for Luongo might not improve the team. I can't see the logic behind you insisting that any mid-season trade would require valued, contributing players coming back to Vancouver.

I don't see this discussion of ours going any further given your stance, sorry.
A mid-season trade would require contributing players to come back because once the season has started, there's absolutely nothing to gain in the short term (Vancouver's outlook) by dumping players for cap space.

At that point, they might as well keep him as a backup for the duration of the year or pray that the market value for goaltenders goes up enough that a player(s) for player(s) deal which wasn't available in the offseason comes to fruition. (highly unlikely)

It doesn't make sense for a team with a shorter term outlook to get worse in the middle of the year. The new cap may force the team to get worse in the immidiate, considering the Canucks are at $67m in cap hit right now. The Canucks are going to spend all of the cap resources available to them... so the only way they're going to move Luongo for pure futures is if the cap forces them to, or they have a follow-up deal to acquire NHL talent.

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09-13-2012, 06:18 PM
  #243
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Originally Posted by Bleach Clean View Post
I meant that CLB could receive another NHL line worth of players. For instance, if they agreed to take on Raymond and Upshall, without subtracting from their roster, that alone greatly improves their depth.



FLA needs to move salary and VAN doesn't necessarily want to take any on. So perhaps CLB can take on the salary + Raymond and give up futures. If Upshall's contract is viewed as a cap dump (could bounce back), and Raymond balances his negative value, would one late first be out of line?


Essentially, VAN takes on Upshall and/or Theodore only to deal both to CLB, along with Raymond, to free up salary immediately after the deal with FLA... Perhaps CLB also kicks back a late pick to FLA for Theo? This could definitely work. CLB has the assets to be a player in this.
Why would Theodore waive to Col-

Nah, who cares.

To Columbus: Theodore, Raymond, Upshall, Van 2nd

To Florida: Luongo

To Vancouver: Florida 1st, Columbus 1st, Rocco Grimaldi.

Yay?

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09-13-2012, 06:20 PM
  #244
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Originally Posted by The Hockey Hitman View Post
There are only four possible destinations for Luongo, and there have always only been four. Chicago, Florida, Toronto or Vancouver.

Gillis likely wouldn't want to deal Luongo to a heated rival.
option: Chicago, gone.

Florida isn't giving into Gillis' demands of their top prospects(Bjugstad, Huberdeau, Howden, Shore etc)
option: Florida, gone.

Toronto seemingly a) won't deal any of their top guys b) the ones they will deal, it appears Gillis isn't interested.
option: Toronto, gone.

Which leaves option D, Vancouver. He'll be a Canuck at least up until the trade deadline, when a) another team's starter goes down and is desperate, willing to pay Vancouver's demands...or b) when Vancouver lowers the asking price.

Done.
If the Flames can trade Theo Fleury to Colorado, Vancouver can trade Luongo to Chicago.

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09-13-2012, 06:21 PM
  #245
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All we want is Iginla and a 5th round pick.

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09-13-2012, 06:29 PM
  #246
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That's probably what would have been a good trade for both teams if it happened in July. But with the threat of the new CBA reducing the cap with no rollback, I bet Toronto doesn't do the deal. In fact, I bet it removes Toronto from the discussion entirely.

I bet any deal now will have to be structured around Komi/cap dump, Kadri and a 1st.
MikeK: "There seems to be a problem, my ticket says Chicago not Vancouver"
MikeG: "Nope that's right"
MikeK: "Oh, the Nucks are playing the Hawks and you want me there straight away."
MikeG: "No."
MikeK: "Oh......"


It wouldn't be Komisarek. He wouldn't give up his NMC to go to Vancouver because we'd waive his ass the moment he got here. It'd have to be one of the other ones.
After the trade

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09-13-2012, 06:31 PM
  #247
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I actually think Toronto has the worst duo in the league so I think Luongo ends up in Toronto when it's all said and done.
I think Luongo will find Toronto's interest cute, and flattering...

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09-13-2012, 06:35 PM
  #248
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MikeK: "There seems to be a problem, my ticket says Chicago not Vancouver"
MikeG: "Nope that's right"
MikeK: "Oh, the Nucks are playing the Hawks and you want me there straight away."
MikeG: "No."
MikeK: "Oh......"


It wouldn't be Komisarek. He wouldn't give up his NMC to go to Vancouver because we'd waive his ass the moment he got here. It'd have to be one of the other ones.
After the trade
And a NMC means he can't be sent to the minors, either.

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09-13-2012, 06:36 PM
  #249
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Toronto says yes please; however, i just don't see the reality in this deal. Good value all around though (i'd think anyways)
No more unproven goalies please. With an all-star Top 10 goalie like Luongo, Leafs look like a completely different team. Bad contract or no contract (which negates itself when Luongo retires btw), he's the guy we should be going after.

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09-13-2012, 06:37 PM
  #250
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A mid-season trade would require contributing players to come back because once the season has started, there's absolutely nothing to gain in the short term (Vancouver's outlook) by dumping players for cap space.

At that point, they might as well keep him as a backup for the duration of the year or pray that the market value for goaltenders goes up enough that a player(s) for player(s) deal which wasn't available in the offseason comes to fruition. (highly unlikely)

It doesn't make sense for a team with a shorter term outlook to get worse in the middle of the year. The new cap may force the team to get worse in the immidiate, considering the Canucks are at $67m in cap hit right now. The Canucks are going to spend all of the cap resources available to them... so the only way they're going to move Luongo for pure futures is if the cap forces them to, or they have a follow-up deal to acquire NHL talent.
Yeah I totally disagree with this. If Gillis thinks he's got a really good futures deal on the table at the deadline that won't be available in the offseason, and he's comfortable with Schneider carrying the load for the playoffs, then I see no reason not to downgrade our backup goalie. If you see it differently then we'll just have to agree to disagree.

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