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Gillis: Potential Return For Luongo May Not Improve Canucks **Mod Warning #86**

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Old
09-17-2012, 02:26 PM
  #801
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Originally Posted by Laus723 View Post
Not how GMs look at draft picks. Ballard, especially with salary, wil not return a second. Your value meter is way off.
Agree to disagree, but it doesn't matter. We are not in a position where we need to trade Luongo, and likely won't be in the near future. We have no reason not to wait until the market heats up.

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09-17-2012, 02:36 PM
  #802
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Originally Posted by nhlfan9191 View Post
Come on man. Ballard's a healthy scratch most of the time with your team. He might bring you a 7th pick tops. But most likely he's waiver material with his contract.
so wait, I have no "credibility" here at all according to you because of a typo in my post, and you can spew completely inaccurate crap like this and think you have any credibility?

Ballard has not been a healthy scratch since the 10-11 season, when he first came to Vancouver... he was having trouble adjusting to the system and playing the right side and was a healthy scratch a few times that year.

Last year, the only games he missed were due to injury. And he was solid for the Canucks otherwise through the year, and as many have said was the team's most consistent dman during the playoffs. There wasn't a single game last season where he was a healthy scratch.

So, should we ignore your posts and say you have no credibility since you're spewing utter garbage as facts here?

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09-17-2012, 02:36 PM
  #803
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Philly fans won't give you a 2nd for Ballard. Can't speak for Homer, but it has been no secret we have been after defenseman. I know for sure if Homer thought Ballard was worth a 2nd and available, he would be on the Flyers.(he gives away draft picks like candy) Ballard is not worth a 2nd rounder. Maybe a 4th, but his value is at an all time low. He would most likely be dealt in a bad contract swap.
Oh common. The reason Ballard hasn't been traded for a 2nd is because he's not available, there are a ton of contending teams out there that would gladly take on a reclaimation project like Ballard for a 2nd round pick. Ballard had a very strong finish to the season last year, heck, his whole season was pretty good save for time lost to injury. Just for the record, he wasn't a healthy scratch once last season. He established himself as the anchor of our bottom pairing, starting playing his role, fighting more etc. He's fairly well trusted defensively, if you have a look at his zone starts you'd see that.

A 2nd round pick has maybe a 25% chance to be any sort of NHLer, and likely they won't be as good as Ballard is. It's pretty clear and obvious that Ballard hasn't simply forgotten how to play hockey, he just isn't a fit in Vancouver's system behind two top pairing LH defensemen. Just because that fact eludes HF posters doesn't mean an observant GM doesn't realize it. You're kidding yourself if you think Ballard won't get a 2nd round pick. GMs love deals like this, and smart ones would take that chance if they had a hole to fill.

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09-17-2012, 02:43 PM
  #804
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Originally Posted by nhlfan9191 View Post
Come on man. Ballard's a healthy scratch most of the time with your team. He might bring you a 7th pick tops. But most likely he's waiver material with his contract.
Okay, no need to make stuff up, clearly you don't watch the Canucks.

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09-17-2012, 02:46 PM
  #805
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No team will pay a second for Ballard. Wideman went to Wash for 3rd, GMs try to get for as little as possible. Mallards play and contract suggest, given league history, he'd hot for a 4th, MAYBE a 3rd.

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09-17-2012, 02:48 PM
  #806
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Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
Agree to disagree, but it doesn't matter. We are not in a position where we need to trade Luongo, and likely won't be in the near future. We have no reason not to wait until the market heats up.
Unless Luongo forces one, either way, I'm not pining for Louie. I called him overrated before it was popular, got blasted plenty for it, and my opinion hasn't changed. However, if Tallon feels he fits, he'll get him. Which is what I'm here to discuss.

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09-17-2012, 02:55 PM
  #807
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Originally Posted by Luck 6 View Post
Oh common. The reason Ballard hasn't been traded for a 2nd is because he's not available, there are a ton of contending teams out there that would gladly take on a reclaimation project like Ballard for a 2nd round pick. Ballard had a very strong finish to the season last year, heck, his whole season was pretty good save for time lost to injury. Just for the record, he wasn't a healthy scratch once last season. He established himself as the anchor of our bottom pairing, starting playing his role, fighting more etc. He's fairly well trusted defensively, if you have a look at his zone starts you'd see that.

A 2nd round pick has maybe a 25% chance to be any sort of NHLer, and likely they won't be as good as Ballard is. It's pretty clear and obvious that Ballard hasn't simply forgotten how to play hockey, he just isn't a fit in Vancouver's system behind two top pairing LH defensemen. Just because that fact eludes HF posters doesn't mean an observant GM doesn't realize it. You're kidding yourself if you think Ballard won't get a 2nd round pick. GMs love deals like this, and smart ones would take that chance if they had a hole to fill.
Of all the contending teams, who can take on that salary right now for a player who will contribute 15 points a year while getting paid like a 30-35 point defender. Not many contenders would make that deal, a 2nd rounder at least has the potential to match those numbers at a fairly lower salary. Only downside is it won't contribute for a few years.

I'm not even saying Ballard is a terrible hockey player, but his contract is a killer. Over paid and not just this year, but 3 all together. That's a big investment for a contending team to make for a reclamation project. 4.2 for anchoring a bottom pairing is too much money. Even for the Flyers and their expensive defense.

Now if Vancouver needs to dump salary, the Flyers will take Edler off your hands for ya at the deadline.

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09-17-2012, 02:55 PM
  #808
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Originally Posted by Laus723 View Post
No team will pay a second for Ballard. Wideman went to Wash for 3rd, GMs try to get for as little as possible. Mallards play and contract suggest, given league history, he'd hot for a 4th, MAYBE a 3rd.
And guys like Shane O'Brien and Paul Gaustad have been traded for 1st round picks. It goes both ways really. If anything history tells us that there is not set 'value' that can be assigned to a player in which fans can use to accurately speculate trade value. I'm not saying this for or against Ballard, but just pointing out there's a reason why when a real trade actually goes down many of the supposed 'experts' around are often shocked at the value.

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09-17-2012, 03:05 PM
  #809
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Originally Posted by Laus723 View Post
Unless Luongo forces one, either way, I'm not pining for Louie. I called him overrated before it was popular, got blasted plenty for it, and my opinion hasn't changed. However, if Tallon feels he fits, he'll get him. Which is what I'm here to discuss.
this discussion is useless now... everything has been recycled over and over again.

We know that the Panthers don't want to give up anything of value for him and want to shed salary the other way to get him. And we know that other teams don't want to give up much either (at least fans of all those teams). We also know that Gillis isn't going to just give him away and doesn't have to move him at this point.

And with the CBA situation now, no trade will happen anyways.

There's really nothing else to discuss... his value - according to fans - isn't there... so why move him right now? If his value doesn't improve into the season, and the Canucks have to dump him, then can just waive him. Really what are they losing from not accepting a trade right now and waiving him later? Upshall? Connelly? if those are the offers, just waive him later and get the cap space that removing his contract provides, without useless overpaid returns. That's worst case by waiting... but the upside to waiting is that another team *may* become more desperate and give up value that the Canucks need.

There is no need to move him for crap returns... and seeing as how fans of other teams don't think his value will return anything worthwhile, it makes no sense to move him now.

This thread - along with all Luongo discussion threads - should just be closed now. There is nothing new to discuss and all that happens at this point in such threads is that teams start getting bashed. And frankly as a Canuck fan, I'm sick and tired of being told how crappy our players are, our horrible our prospects pool is, and how our organization is in trouble somehow. We get it, Luongo sucks, he has no value.. Ballard sucks, and according to fans who never watch him, he's a regular healthy scratch and has no value... our prospects are so horrible that the Canucks will be lucky to make the playoffs over the next 10 years, blah blah blah... that's what this thread has degenerated into.

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09-17-2012, 03:11 PM
  #810
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That's why I said almost nothing. Even the worst of prospect pools have some interesting prospects (trust me, I'm a Sharks fan).

I'm not saying your prospects are worthless, I was just remarking on the fact that the Canucks don't have any sure thing prospect, that the don't have anyone remarkable. I was just laughing at the fact that some Canucks fans think their prospect pool is 'average', when clearly it's one of the worst in the league.

I'm not trying to pick a fight, I just think it's funny to see Canucks fans all excited over a prospect that's still a long shot to be in the NHL.
"Prospect pools" are one of the most highly subjective things in sports. I don't think it's a big deal to call theirs 'average' and I don't see how it's laughable. Rankings are incredibly subjective as no one really knows every prospect inside and out. And unless you can see 5 years into the future, you have no right to judge anyone else's opinions on these pools anyway. How the hell do you know which ones are average or bottom of the barrell? I've talked to scouts in my time that don't pretend they could rank the teams, yet you know? Because you hang out at HF I guess? It's not that simple. You can look at who has the top prospects and sure, they're near the top, but outside of that you're clearly speaking out of your ass.

And what does this have to do with Luongo again? Some fans will go to any random length to try and slag the Canucks...

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09-17-2012, 03:11 PM
  #811
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Originally Posted by NFITO View Post
And frankly as a Canuck fan, I'm sick and tired of being told how crappy our players are, our horrible our prospects pool is, and how our organization is in trouble somehow. We get it, Luongo sucks, he has no value.. Ballard sucks, and according to fans who never watch him, he's a regular healthy scratch and has no value... our prospects are so horrible that the Canucks will be lucky to make the playoffs over the next 10 years, blah blah blah... that's what this thread has degenerated into.
I'm a Leaf fan, and i wonder if you'd hold yourself to the same standard when discussing the Leafs? Because we just have to take it in the chin, suck it up and ask for more.

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09-17-2012, 03:14 PM
  #812
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Florida has a chance to compete for a cup now. They have veteran players like Weiss, Campbell, Versteeg, Fleischman who are in the prime of their careers. They also have a lot of good upcoming talent in both at all positions, Huberdeau, Gudbranson, Kulikov, Howden, Petrovic. These veterans and prospects make a solid core. The biggest hole they have is goaltending. Yes Markstrom is a great young goalie prospect, but at the very least it is going to take years for him to have a chance to pan out as a star goalie. A team like Florida has a chance now and Tallon knows it. They have a chance to compete for a championship. They have a chance to draw fans back to the team! With a goalie like Luongo, Florida will make the playoffs for I would say at least the next 3-4 years. Florida might have even beaten New Jersey this year. Who knows what could have happened. HFboards is a great place to talk about prospects, but too many posters on here lack the killer instinct to compete when their team has a chance finally. Obviously Luongo is not the saviour but he is a solid piece to add to a core consisting of, Weiss, Campbell, Versteeg, Fleischman, Huberdeau, Gudbranson, Kulikov, Howden, Petrovic.

I don't think that Florida needs to give up any of these core players to get Luongo. Suggested rumours look like Bjudstad, Matthias, 1st as potential pieces to make a deal. It surely would not include all of these pieces, but none of these pieces individually impact the team as much as a starting goalie with playoff experience would. With a sure fire no. 1 goalie Florida in my opinion could be a cup contender if not this year, next year for sure once some of these youngsters get an extra year under their belts.


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09-17-2012, 03:16 PM
  #813
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That's why I said almost nothing. Even the worst of prospect pools have some interesting prospects (trust me, I'm a Sharks fan).

I'm not saying your prospects are worthless, I was just remarking on the fact that the Canucks don't have any sure thing prospect, that the don't have anyone remarkable. I was just laughing at the fact that some Canucks fans think their prospect pool is 'average', when clearly it's one of the worst in the league.

I'm not trying to pick a fight, I just think it's funny to see Canucks fans all excited over a prospect that's still a long shot to be in the NHL.
still don't really see the relevance in a luongo trade thread
I agree with you, but it's not the place for it

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09-17-2012, 03:25 PM
  #814
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I'm a Leaf fan, and i wonder if you'd hold yourself to the same standard when discussing the Leafs? Because we just have to take it in the chin, suck it up and ask for more.
if you read his posts, you know the answer
always non-inflammatory & factual

i agree with you and despite times of intense dislike have always had a perverse softside for the leafs, only by virtue of solidarity in face of relentless bashing ... (my own opinion is that in the leafs' case there's a degree of asking for it via the center-of-the-universe-but-long-not-very-good thing...) Canucks were a nowhere team forever then got good, bit a finger and faced a tsunami of bashing ...kinda unprecedented, if you think about it

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09-17-2012, 03:31 PM
  #815
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I'm a Leaf fan, and i wonder if you'd hold yourself to the same standard when discussing the Leafs? Because we just have to take it in the chin, suck it up and ask for more.
and if the team actually did suck I'd probably take it on the chin, suck it up and ask for more as well.

The Canucks have been one of the best teams in the league since Gillis has come in - more wins in that time span than any other team. They are the reigning back to back President's trophy winners, and yet the team still somehow sucks, and all their players are overrated.

When have the Canucks actually had a good prospects pool? The answer to that is NEVER. They have always lacked depth and talent in their prospects pool, since they came into the league in 1970. Their prospects pool was no better decades ago when they were getting top picks because of sucking as a team. So why would we be concerned now that this organization is going to suck for the coming years because their prospects pool is still crap? It's not like they're the team they are now because they had a great pool a few years ago.

If the Canucks did actually suck, and their players were that terrible, and the results showed all that, it'd be a lot easier "taking it in the chin" here... but when the team is better than most of these haters' teams, that have done far less than the Canucks have, and we're being told by them just how bad our team and players are, it goes well beyond any intelligent criticism.

If the Canucks record over the past few years mimicked the Leafs, I'd agree that they suck as a team. That is so clearly not the case however. But somehow people think that their basement teams or fringe playoff teams are in much better situations than the Canucks are in now. Real objective discussions here.

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09-17-2012, 03:43 PM
  #816
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Of all the contending teams, who can take on that salary right now for a player who will contribute 15 points a year while getting paid like a 30-35 point defender. Not many contenders would make that deal, a 2nd rounder at least has the potential to match those numbers at a fairly lower salary. Only downside is it won't contribute for a few years.

I'm not even saying Ballard is a terrible hockey player, but his contract is a killer. Over paid and not just this year, but 3 all together. That's a big investment for a contending team to make for a reclamation project. 4.2 for anchoring a bottom pairing is too much money. Even for the Flyers and their expensive defense.

Now if Vancouver needs to dump salary, the Flyers will take Edler off your hands for ya at the deadline.

Ballard has struggled on playing the wrong side, getting a concussion, then being relegated to third line minutes. Despite this he has steadily improved his stock. At some point next year I wouldn't be surprised if Ballard for a 2nd would seem like a steal.

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09-17-2012, 03:45 PM
  #817
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I'm a Leaf fan, and i wonder if you'd hold yourself to the same standard when discussing the Leafs? Because we just have to take it in the chin, suck it up and ask for more.
The Canucks are a playoff team and a contender. The leafs pick I the lottery and miss the playoffs consistently.

There is no basis for comparison.

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09-17-2012, 03:47 PM
  #818
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Originally Posted by Laus723 View Post
Unless Luongo forces one, either way, I'm not pining for Louie. I called him overrated before it was popular, got blasted plenty for it, and my opinion hasn't changed. However, if Tallon feels he fits, he'll get him. Which is what I'm here to discuss.
That's fine. What you're willing to offer right now makes perfect sense from your position. But when people say we have to accept lowball offers since we can't afford to keep Luongo, and he's demanded to be traded to Florida, they couldn't be more wrong. There's a good chance the market heats up when the season starts, and there's no reason not to wait until then.

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09-17-2012, 04:00 PM
  #819
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Florida has a chance to compete for a cup now. They have veteran players like Weiss, Campbell, Versteeg, Fleischman who are in the prime of their careers. They also have a lot of good upcoming talent in both at all positions, Huberdeau, Gudbranson, Kulikov, Howden, Petrovic. These veterans and prospects make a solid core. The biggest hole they have is goaltending. Yes Markstrom is a great young goalie prospect, but at the very least it is going to take years for him to have a chance to pan out as a star goalie. A team like Florida has a chance now and Tallon knows it. They have a chance to compete for a championship. They have a chance to draw fans back to the team! With a goalie like Luongo, Florida will make the playoffs for I would say at least the next 3-4 years. Florida might have even beaten New Jersey this year. Who knows what could have happened. HFboards is a great place to talk about prospects, but too many posters on here lack the killer instinct to compete when their team has a chance finally. Obviously Luongo is not the saviour but he is a solid piece to add to a core consisting of, Weiss, Campbell, Versteeg, Fleischman, Huberdeau, Gudbranson, Kulikov, Howden, Petrovic.

I don't think that Florida needs to give up any of these core players to get Luongo. Suggested rumours look like Bjudstad, Matthias, 1st as potential pieces to make a deal. It surely would not include all of these pieces, but none of these pieces individually impact the team as much as a starting goalie with playoff experience would. With a sure fire no. 1 goalie Florida in my opinion could be a cup contender if not this year, next year for sure once some of these youngsters get an extra year under their belts.
Goalie though is not our biggest need and it has nothing to do with Panther posters here not wanting to make a move to improve the team. This team has been limited by its ability to score for yrs now and thats what the biggest need is and will be. This was the same problem we had when we had world-class goalies like Luongo and Vokoun and it got us nowhere. Until the goal scoring issue is addressed, it makes little sense to address a position like goalie, which has been proven that you can still compete for Cups with average goaltenders (Niemi, Osgood, Khabibulin) or even just a young goalie getting hot at the right time (Ward, Fleury, etc).

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09-17-2012, 04:21 PM
  #820
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and if the team actually did suck I'd probably take it on the chin, suck it up and ask for more as well.
If every discussion was about how the team did in the standings last year, that might be relevant. But this is the specific piece I'm talking about.

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And frankly as a Canuck fan, I'm sick and tired of being told how crappy our players are, our horrible our prospects pool is, and how our organization is in trouble
As a Leaf organization we have good players who get marginalized all the time. We have an improving prospect pool with several good, quality prospects but it gets marginalized all the time. And we are finally set up to have some kind of future, but it always seems to go back to the final standings last year as the measure of future success.

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The Canucks are a playoff team and a contender. The leafs pick I the lottery and miss the playoffs consistently.

There is no basis for comparison.
As above.

This wasn't a question about who is the better team now or who will be in the future. It's just a question of fans of other teams marginalizing another teams assets. You can't fight it wioth people it's just part of these boards.

In Luongo's case, he's had significant value to the Canucks for many years. However, fans of other teams aren't quite so high on him, partially because of his age, partially because of his playing history in some big events, partially because he doesn't always fit with where a team is in their development. The Leafs have been adding players mostly under 25 years old, and have a large handful of players 22 and under who will form the core of our team for the next 10 years. Where does a 33 year old goalie fit into that? Well, if he comes cheap, that's fine, but if he comes at a large cost (Kadri and a 1st) and has a ticket which is hard to move, you have to understand why a Leaf fan might be hesitant to once again shell out picks and prospects for an older goalie who in all likelyhood will never return assets for your future, as in he will retire and you won't build a future around him.

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09-17-2012, 04:25 PM
  #821
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Funny how all those same players were there the prior 3 years and they missed the playoffs in 2 of them ... But I guess that's strictly coincidental. Also strictly coincidental is the fact that the Leafs have actually had a worse record under Burke than his predecessors in Toronto ...

HHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM MMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM ......................
Actually they missed the playoffs 2 of the 3 years. That said the Sedins were young and improving as were many on that list.

As for the Toronto part -- I wasn't talking about Toronto -- and that doesn't negate the FACT Burke and Nonis built Vancouver.

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09-17-2012, 04:34 PM
  #822
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for those canuck fans calling posters canucks haters becuase we are questioning their prospects.
Really? It was only one Canucks fan, me, and the guy wasn't questioning our prospects, he was questioning Gillis's drafting resume. Big difference. Gillis has done a great job with his first round picks, a somewhat questionable job with his seconds, and pretty damn good in rounds 3-7.

The quote from JohnWayne that I disagreed with was: "Gillis can not draft and that is his problem."

Totally untrue statement, and if you actually followed the Canucks in the Gillis era and had some sort of understanding of prospect development you would be able to realize this isn't remotely true. I simply went over his picks by round and pointed out that he's actually done pretty well with the picks that he's had, and we're now just waiting for them to finish developing.

Why an Oilers fan chooses to come into this thread and spin people's words around to bash our organization confounds me. From an outside perspective, one would think that Oilers fans have a bit more to worry about than Gillis's draft history, like how to break into the top 28 teams in the league this year.

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09-17-2012, 04:44 PM
  #823
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Ballard for a second round pick doesn't seem so far fetched.
Well if Lombardi/Komisarek/Connolly and a 2 could bring back a top 5 goalie, Ballard and a 2 should be able to bring back a top 6 forward right? Just goes to show the ridiculousness of some proposals.

Luongo will bring back a legitimate top 6 forward or he will be a Canuck this season.

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09-17-2012, 04:49 PM
  #824
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Well if Lombardi/Komisarek/Connolly and a 2 could bring back a top 5 goalie, Ballard and a 2 should be able to bring back a top 6 forward right? Just goes to show the ridiculousness of some proposals.

Luongo will bring back a legitimate top 6 forward or he will be a Canuck this season.
Well I wouldn't go that far. Some NHL ready prospects with solid potential or first round picks could also be a return worth getting.

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09-17-2012, 04:49 PM
  #825
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Quote:
Originally Posted by y2kcanucks View Post
Well if Lombardi/Komisarek/Connolly and a 2 could bring back a top 5 goalie, Ballard and a 2 should be able to bring back a top 6 forward right? Just goes to show the ridiculousness of some proposals.

Luongo will bring back a legitimate top 6 forward or he will be a Canuck this season.
Ballard and a 2nd for a top 6 who has 10 years left on his contract at 33 years old, maybe.

I think the point is, if you want a decent return, you will also have to take a salary dump back. If you don't want the salary dump, don't expect good value. If you think Kadri and a 1st is good value, expect komo to be added to the package. If you refuse to accept a salary dump, expect MacArthur and Franson as the return.

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