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Jarome Iginla as a top-5 all time goal scorers!

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Old
09-13-2012, 06:51 AM
  #1
TAnnala
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Jarome Iginla as a top-5 all time goal scorers!

Now, i don't want to cause a **** storm, so i opened this thread here. Where i would probably find the most Iggy fans.

So, i found this article/study about Iginla. It is made basically 2 seasons ago. It seems like there has been some effort in making of this and there is actually some good points to consider. But there is also a lot of things that i don't consider accurate. Also a lot of things that don't pass the eye test.

Is Iginla truly a top-5 goalscorer and best of his era?

http://www.matchsticksandgasoline.co...er-of-all-time

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09-13-2012, 08:02 AM
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At his peak Iggy was, imo, the best pure goal scorer in the NHL. I'm not sure if I would call him top 5, but you have to consider also that he was putting up some of these goal totals in the dead puck era, with no lockout he probably would have another 30-40 goals.

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09-13-2012, 09:52 AM
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I don't know if I'd say top 5 of all-time.

He's definitely very good though.

I did find something odd about that comparison though. Its primary focus was comparing Iginla to Dino Ciccarelli and Brendan Shanahan. It makes the argument about how many more Iginla would have scored based on the same percentage of team goals. Then it says Iginla and Shanahan had highly overlapping careers and make for very good comparison. Never mind the fact that Iginla's career started in 1996-97, while Shanahan had been in the league almost at decade at that point. Shanahan's prime was cut off by the DPE, Iginla's was not. Shanahan scored 54 goals in 92-93 and 93-94, then there was the lockout, a 44 goal season in Hartford, a 47 goal season in 96-97 (46 in Detroit, 1 in Hartford) and then the clutching and grabbing really went into full swing. Jagr alone barely broke 100 to win the Ross in 97-98. Jagr, Kariya, and Selanne all did it in 98-99, but then Jagr led with only 96 points in 99-00. Iginla was not yet in his prime, so his career numbers are damaged far less than Shanahan's.

And then it goes on to compare Iginla to some great scorers from history. But leaves out others, such as Marcel Dionne, Phil Esposito, and Bobby Hull. Or possibly the best comparables of all; Ilya Kovalchuk. Kovalchuk is one of only 16 players who has scored a significant number of goals while averaging better than 0.50 GPG (also true at the time the article was written).

And where's Jaromir Jagr in this comparison? Or Teemu Selanne? Seriously. It's like a Boston fan using an Orr/Bourque/Coffey comparison to show why Orr and Bourque are the two best defensemen of all-time.

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09-13-2012, 12:03 PM
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At his peak he was the best goalscorer in the league, playing with no real help (no offense to Connie). If he had a player like Stamkos has in St. Louis on his line, I think he could of put up 60 in his prime, we will never know though.

Top 5 all time though? Unlikely. Even if he somehow had another 40 goal season and a couple 30's I still dont think he cracks Top 5.

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09-13-2012, 12:36 PM
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Originally Posted by InfinityIggy View Post
At his peak he was the best goalscorer in the league, playing with no real help (no offense to Connie). If he had a player like Stamkos has in St. Louis on his line, I think he could of put up 60 in his prime, we will never know though.

Top 5 all time though? Unlikely. Even if he somehow had another 40 goal season and a couple 30's I still dont think he cracks Top 5.
Agreed. I do think he was the best player in the game for a few years. Not something very many people can say. There have definitely been more than 5 guys who were better goal scorers though. He might not even crack the top 10. I do think the addition of an actual center might have gotten him into the top 10, but we'll never know, which is too bad really.

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09-13-2012, 12:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Double Dion View Post
Agreed. I do think he was the best player in the game for a few years. Not something very many people can say. There have definitely been more than 5 guys who were better goal scorers though. He might not even crack the top 10. I do think the addition of an actual center might have gotten him into the top 10, but we'll never know, which is too bad really.
If I had to spitball it without going and looking at stats/research I would guess around 12-15 myself.

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09-13-2012, 12:48 PM
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Top 20 maybe, top ten? Don't think so.

And as far as best "pure goal scorer" I still think Bure beats him quite easily in prime.

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09-13-2012, 12:55 PM
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...r_season_goals

Here is a list of the all-time goal scoring leaders. 600 goals are needed to crack #17, I think Iginla will have around that, maybe a bit more at the end of his career. Taking into account the low scoring era he played in, I would guess he ends up about 15 in terms of skill.

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09-13-2012, 01:01 PM
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Originally Posted by InfinityIggy View Post
At his peak he was the best goalscorer in the league, playing with no real help (no offense to Connie). If he had a player like Stamkos has in St. Louis on his line, I think he could of put up 60 in his prime, we will never know though.
If by "at his peak" you mean "from 2001-02 through 2003-04" then I guess you are correct, because you've included two years where he led the league in goals (once tying with Kovalchuk) as well as limited Kovalchuk to his first three seasons, which include his rookie year - which is one of only two seasons he has been sub-40 goals. Naslund is right there with him playing only 90% of the time, although Naslund had a crazy line. Once you get past the lockout, Kovalchuk beats Iginla in GPG from 01-02 through 05-06 inclusive.

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Agreed. I do think he was the best player in the game for a few years. Not something very many people can say. There have definitely been more than 5 guys who were better goal scorers though. He might not even crack the top 10. I do think the addition of an actual center might have gotten him into the top 10, but we'll never know, which is too bad really.
Iginla was arguably the best forward in the game in 2001-02. IMHO he was second behind Naslund. But I would have ranked him probably as the third best player. But as far as goal-scoring is concerned, Kovalchuk is the guy for the current era. It's not even a question. Only four players have played games in the 2000s and scored goals at a career rate of better than 0.50. Mario Lemieux, Pavel Bure, Brett Hull, and Ilya Kovalchuk. Bure and Kovalchuk didn't play in the 80s, Kovalchuk didn't play in the 90s.

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09-13-2012, 01:18 PM
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Will retire as one of the best captains in history

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09-13-2012, 01:24 PM
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Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
If by "at his peak" you mean "from 2001-02 through 2003-04" then I guess you are correct, because you've included two years where he led the league in goals (once tying with Kovalchuk) as well as limited Kovalchuk to his first three seasons, which include his rookie year - which is one of only two seasons he has been sub-40 goals. Naslund is right there with him playing only 90% of the time, although Naslund had a crazy line. Once you get past the lockout, Kovalchuk beats Iginla in GPG from 01-02 through 05-06 inclusive.



Iginla was arguably the best forward in the game in 2001-02. IMHO he was second behind Naslund. But I would have ranked him probably as the third best player. But as far as goal-scoring is concerned, Kovalchuk is the guy for the current era. It's not even a question. Only four players have played games in the 2000s and scored goals at a career rate of better than 0.50. Mario Lemieux, Pavel Bure, Brett Hull, and Ilya Kovalchuk. Bure and Kovalchuk didn't play in the 80s, Kovalchuk didn't play in the 90s.
Yeah, take a look at Iginla's line mates compared to Naslund and get back to me.

As for Kovi, what does he have to do with this discussion? This is about where Iginla would rank, it has nothing to do with where Kovalchuk would rank.

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09-13-2012, 01:31 PM
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Originally Posted by InfinityIggy View Post
At his peak he was the best goalscorer in the league, playing with no real help (no offense to Connie). If he had a player like Stamkos has in St. Louis on his line, I think he could of put up 60 in his prime, we will never know though.
In 2010-2011 St. Louis had 68 assists and 99 points while Stamkos had 46 goals and 91 points. Last year St. Louis dropped to 49 assists and 74 points while Stamkos scores 14 more goals and had 97 points.

So had did St Louis help Stamkos get to 60 goals?

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09-13-2012, 01:41 PM
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Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
If by "at his peak" you mean "from 2001-02 through 2003-04" then I guess you are correct, because you've included two years where he led the league in goals (once tying with Kovalchuk) as well as limited Kovalchuk to his first three seasons, which include his rookie year - which is one of only two seasons he has been sub-40 goals. Naslund is right there with him playing only 90% of the time, although Naslund had a crazy line. Once you get past the lockout, Kovalchuk beats Iginla in GPG from 01-02 through 05-06 inclusive.



Iginla was arguably the best forward in the game in 2001-02. IMHO he was second behind Naslund. But I would have ranked him probably as the third best player. But as far as goal-scoring is concerned, Kovalchuk is the guy for the current era. It's not even a question. Only four players have played games in the 2000s and scored goals at a career rate of better than 0.50. Mario Lemieux, Pavel Bure, Brett Hull, and Ilya Kovalchuk. Bure and Kovalchuk didn't play in the 80s, Kovalchuk didn't play in the 90s.
Naslund couldn't hold Iginla's jock strap in their respective primes. Iginla was a better scorer and much better at everything else. He did it playing with awesome players like McAmmond, Donovan, Conroy and Langkow too. How did Naslund do after Bertuzzi was gone and before he arrived? Iginla performs and produces no matter who he plays with.

You do understand that in his prime Iginla was more than just a scorer right? He killed penalties, fought, laid guys out and won every board battle he was ever in. Naslund did none of those things and Morrison had to do the backchecking for the entire line because Naslund and Bertuzzi never came back past their own blueline. Might have something to do with how the team always under-performed hey?


Last edited by Double Dion: 09-13-2012 at 01:48 PM.
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09-13-2012, 01:51 PM
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In 2010-2011 St. Louis had 68 assists and 99 points while Stamkos had 46 goals and 91 points. Last year St. Louis dropped to 49 assists and 74 points while Stamkos scores 14 more goals and had 97 points.

So had did St Louis help Stamkos get to 60 goals?
If you think St. Louis had nothing to do with Stamkos' production you need to give your head a shake. Look at how much Lecavalier declined when St. Louis was moved to a line with Stamkos.

Granted, Stamkos is still a great player without St. Louis, but he likely drops by 5-10 goals per season without him.

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09-13-2012, 01:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Litework View Post
In 2010-2011 St. Louis had 68 assists and 99 points while Stamkos had 46 goals and 91 points. Last year St. Louis dropped to 49 assists and 74 points while Stamkos scores 14 more goals and had 97 points.

So had did St Louis help Stamkos get to 60 goals?
Is this a serious question?

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09-13-2012, 01:59 PM
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Top 5:

Gretzky
Lemieux
Howe
Hull(s)
Bossy

Iginla is no where near the top 5. Maybe you can make a case for his era, but Ovechkin and Stammer have him beat.

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09-13-2012, 03:45 PM
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Originally Posted by I Hate Jay Feaster View Post
Top 5:

Gretzky
Lemieux
Howe
Hull(s)
Bossy

Iginla is no where near the top 5. Maybe you can make a case for his era, but Ovechkin and Stammer have him beat.
Stamkos for sure, time will tell if Ovechkin gets his game back or not. The problem with lifetime contracts is they can take away motivation from players.

But yes, no way is Iginla a top 5 all-time scorer. He'd be in my top 20 for sure, just based on the fact that he played his entire career post-trap and that the goaltenders could actually stop beach balls in his era. I will always wonder what he could have done with a premier centerman.

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09-13-2012, 05:13 PM
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Stamkos has iginla beat? sorry but he has a few more years before he can be considered a better goal scorer than iggy. plus itd be interesting to see how many goals stamkos would score wihout marty stlouis (an elite playmaker and offensive threat) setting him up.

i like stamkos but to say hes better than iginla at this point is premature.

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09-13-2012, 06:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Haatley View Post
Stamkos has iginla beat? sorry but he has a few more years before he can be considered a better goal scorer than iggy. plus itd be interesting to see how many goals stamkos would score wihout marty stlouis (an elite playmaker and offensive threat) setting him up.

i like stamkos but to say hes better than iginla at this point is premature.
First 4 seasons in the NHL (active):

1. Ovechkin 219 goals
2. Stamkos 179 goals
3. Selanne 163
....
28. Jarome Iginla 91

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09-13-2012, 06:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Haatley View Post
Stamkos has iginla beat? sorry but he has a few more years before he can be considered a better goal scorer than iggy. plus itd be interesting to see how many goals stamkos would score wihout marty stlouis (an elite playmaker and offensive threat) setting him up.

i like stamkos but to say hes better than iginla at this point is premature.
Have u seen Stamkos play? He is definitely better and he hasn't reached his prime years yet. Assuming no major problems he will definitely eclipse goal totals of Iggy easily.

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09-13-2012, 06:35 PM
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Have u seen Stamkos play? He is definitely better and he hasn't reached his prime years yet. Assuming no major problems he will definitely eclipse goal totals of Iggy easily.
While I agree with your sentiment a lot can happen in a 20 year NHL career. Prime example: Ovechkin.

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09-13-2012, 09:06 PM
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I get the writer's perspective, but top 5 goal scorers is very arguable. Yes I agree that Iginla is seriously under appreciated based on raw numbers alone. I agree that we have to consider that Iginla carried a weak team during a very low scoring era in the NHL. People talk about Kovalchuk, Ovechkin, etc., but those guys played on teams that carried more talent than the team Iggy played for.

I think I respect Iggy in terms of his overall leadership and power forward abilities than his goal scoring talent. Iginla is also one of the classiest players to hit the ice.

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09-14-2012, 06:46 AM
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So, basically Iginla fans says that he will be somewhere around 10-20 spot after he retires.

So here is some more info about him.

He currently sits 35th with 516 goals, at the all-time goal scorers. Only active players ahead of him are Jagr and Selanne. (Both guys that i would put ahead of Iginla as a goal scorers.) I will assume (this is without lockout) that he will play competitive as late as 39 years old. That will give him 4 more seasons. Next season he has all the tools to put up 30 goals. That would put him in 546 career goals. Good for 28th spot in the all-time list. Now, he has to start decline at some point. But, no way to know when. So i assume he will play two more seasons with average of 25 goals in season. That gives him 596 goals, good for number 19 all time list. So, for the last season he plays (assuming he stops at the tender age of 39) i will give him 20 goals. That is enough to slot him up to the number 16 in the all-time list with 616 goals. This is a lousy speculation, but the best i could do.

Now, to be number 16 in all-time list will definitely give some serious arguments about Iginla being in the top 20 goal scorer all-time.

Let's look this with adjusted goals.

In fact, adjusted career goals puts Iginla at the 24th spot with 571 career goals at this moment. So, he is actually lifted higher in this regard. I don't have the adjustment tools to see how much Iginla's hypothetical 100 goals that i gave him will end out to be in the adjusted goals. So, i will merit them as a goals. That puts him with 671 adjusted career goals. That will tie him for the 7th spot with Phil Esposito. So adjusted goals (with a flaw on the end of his career) gives Iggy about 10 spots higher slot in the all-time list. Impressive.

These two conclusions will suggest him to be closer to the 10th best scorer than 20th.

There is still one major category to look at. Goals/Game for career. This is a good indicator for the player likes of Bure.

Now, i know that playing for a long time, will effect your career averages, so lets also try to look at this with the whole picture. Now this is a category that puts Iginla behind his competitors in the two first categories. At goals/game Iggy at this point stands at 69th with 0,434. Only 8 active players ahead of him, OV (0,613) Kovy (0,521) Crosby (0,514) Selanne (0,494) Jagr (0,494) Malkin (0,487) Heatley (0,465) Gaborik (0,449). So this gives us the fact that he will most likely not get any higher on the list. Maybe a 2-4 slots but that is it. Now, if we consider Iginla as a scorer who is on par with the likes of Selanne and Jagr then he should be around the same spot as these guys. But they in fact have 41 spot difference. Now this is something that does not fit. Jagr/Selanne are among the top scorers in all these three categories. Iginla is high in two out of three.

Now, if i would make a conclusion about this it would be that Iginla is a player with great health, longevity and scoring abilities. But he is a notch below the likes of Bure/Jagr/Selanne/OV/Hull´s etc.

My bet is that if there would be a good study made with many different minds Iginla would show in every top-30 list but not in a single top-10 list of all time scorers. I would put him just above the spot 20. 20-25 maybe.

Your thoughts?

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09-15-2012, 02:43 PM
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Originally Posted by InfinityIggy View Post
Yeah, take a look at Iginla's line mates compared to Naslund and get back to me.

As for Kovi, what does he have to do with this discussion? This is about where Iginla would rank, it has nothing to do with where Kovalchuk would rank.
It's about Iginla being a top goal scorer. Kovalchuk has played through most of Iginla's career and is clearly superior in that respect, having only dropped below 40 in his rookie season and the past two. Iginla has 110 more goals than Kovalchuk in in 400 more games; assuming that Iginla even plays another game (i.e. there is no lockout and/or a 2012-13 season and/or he plays in 2013-14) he will still be losing ground rapidly. If you assume that Kovalchuk scores 35 goals per 80 games based on the last two seasons, he'll get around 175 more goals by the time he hits Iginla's current mark. And if that includes a lockout and Iginla retiring at the end of the lockout, it will be at the same age. If not, we'll assume one more season for Iginla at 30 goals and one more for Kovalchuk at 35. About 545 goals for Iginla, about 615 goals for Kovalchuk. And then, of course, there's Ovechkin. Only Lemieux and Kurri hit 300 goals quicker than he did. He's considered to be playing terribly, to be "washed up" now because he's only scored 70 goals and 150 points over the past two seasons. With a 7th place finish in points in 10-11, mind you. And he finished fifth in goals last year. But he's washed up. That's how ridiculously dominant he was in his first few seasons. He still is contending for scoring titles despite being supposedly washed up.

Iginla is a great goal scorer, one of the best of all-time. But to rank him in the top five or top ten is seriously exaggerating his ability.

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Naslund couldn't hold Iginla's jock strap in their respective primes. Iginla was a better scorer and much better at everything else. He did it playing with awesome players like McAmmond, Donovan, Conroy and Langkow too. How did Naslund do after Bertuzzi was gone and before he arrived? Iginla performs and produces no matter who he plays with.

You do understand that in his prime Iginla was more than just a scorer right? He killed penalties, fought, laid guys out and won every board battle he was ever in. Naslund did none of those things and Morrison had to do the backchecking for the entire line because Naslund and Bertuzzi never came back past their own blueline. Might have something to do with how the team always under-performed hey?
Naslund seriously carried that line. Morrison was not as good as Conroy - he didn't score as much OR play defense as well. Conroy was a perennial Selke contender if you don't recall. Bertuzzi's big years and numbers were seriously inflated because he played with Naslund; he basically took advantage of the fact that everyone was "****, it's Naslund!" to stay surprisingly undetected. Had he been the primary on the line, he wouldn't have scored more than 20-25 goals. It's like last season in Detroit. He played with Datsyuk and Franzen, but only managed 38 points. How do you only manage 38 points as an offense-only player on that line? He is, literally, Detroit's worst forward, just as he was the worst forward on that line. He played on the Naslund line for the same reason Bob Probert played with Steve Yzerman in 1988. Size. Fists. Bertuzzi is just a bit more skilled than Probert was. I wouldn't have been surprised to see him end up with around 40-50 points had he been opposite Iginla in Calgary in those years. Why? Naslund was a much better playmaker than Bertuzzi. Iginla was the better goal scorer, and Bertuzzi might have creaked over 50 because of that, but Naslund's playmaking was what really "created" Bertuzzi.

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09-15-2012, 03:12 PM
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It's about Iginla being a top goal scorer. Kovalchuk has played through most of Iginla's career and is clearly superior in that respect, having only dropped below 40 in his rookie season and the past two. Iginla has 110 more goals than Kovalchuk in in 400 more games; assuming that Iginla even plays another game (i.e. there is no lockout and/or a 2012-13 season and/or he plays in 2013-14) he will still be losing ground rapidly. If you assume that Kovalchuk scores 35 goals per 80 games based on the last two seasons, he'll get around 175 more goals by the time he hits Iginla's current mark. And if that includes a lockout and Iginla retiring at the end of the lockout, it will be at the same age. If not, we'll assume one more season for Iginla at 30 goals and one more for Kovalchuk at 35. About 545 goals for Iginla, about 615 goals for Kovalchuk. And then, of course, there's Ovechkin. Only Lemieux and Kurri hit 300 goals quicker than he did. He's considered to be playing terribly, to be "washed up" now because he's only scored 70 goals and 150 points over the past two seasons. With a 7th place finish in points in 10-11, mind you. And he finished fifth in goals last year. But he's washed up. That's how ridiculously dominant he was in his first few seasons. He still is contending for scoring titles despite being supposedly washed up.

Iginla is a great goal scorer, one of the best of all-time. But to rank him in the top five or top ten is seriously exaggerating his ability.
Agreed. Nothing wrong with being a top 20 goal scorer of all time. Also if you want rank by type of player instead, he's probably a top 5 power forward (top 10 at the very least). Kovalchuk is absolutely a better goal scorer, though; his natural shooting talent is probably second in the league to Stamkos, and was first in the league for the majority of his career.

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