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Vancouver Canadians (NWL/short season A ball) repeat as champions

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Old
09-18-2012, 10:25 AM
  #126
RayzorIsDull
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Originally Posted by Lebanese Leaf View Post
You bring up a good point here. Everyone is so quick to get mad and defensive, but why not let him explain the context of the situation and what it means in spanish before we crucify him? Bad words can have completely different meanings in different cultures, let alone different languages.

For example, the c-word is one of the most derogatory and despicable insults you can throw out at someone, especially a woman in the North American context. But if you go to Australia, it's thrown around like it's nothing, often as a positive reference to the person "you funny c*** or you clever c***." I have cousins from Australia and was shocked to hear them throw it around so casually at first, then I realized it had a totally different context for them.
We already know what it means in spanish and that's the problem.

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09-18-2012, 10:39 AM
  #127
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Originally Posted by Lebanese Leaf View Post
You bring up a good point here. Everyone is so quick to get mad and defensive, but why not let him explain the context of the situation and what it means in spanish before we crucify him? Bad words can have completely different meanings in different cultures, let alone different languages.
We know for a fact it can be used casually, much like the urban/rap scene has at times thrown around the N-word casually. That doesn't change what it means, however, in either language, nor does it make inokaytouse in other contexts. It's meant to be a derogatory remark, conflating the ideas of homosexuality and weakness. Even if that isn't how it was *intended*, that is what it *means*.

It's pretty obvious he didn't think it was a big deal. It's perfectly obvious he didn't think, period. The concern is the stupidity on display by thinking it was appropriate to wear on the field. And that's down not just to Escobar but also his teammates.

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09-18-2012, 10:41 AM
  #128
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Originally Posted by Anthrax442 View Post
People suggest "throwing money at him". Didn't we try and fail the same with Frank Thomas?
Yup, sure did.
But given the composition of the team and the bats on the farm (*maybe* TDA has enough bat to DH), it's a relatively low-cost option (in term and depth) to get a premier bat. Younger guys will command longer term at big dollars.

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09-18-2012, 10:43 AM
  #129
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Originally Posted by Ohio Jones View Post
We know for a fact it can be used casually, much like the urban/rap scene has at times thrown around the N-word casually. That doesn't change what it means, however, in either language, nor does it make inokaytouse in other contexts. It's meant to be a derogatory remark, conflating the ideas of homosexuality and weakness. Even if that isn't how it was *intended*, that is what it *means*.

It's pretty obvious he didn't think it was a big deal. It's perfectly obvious he didn't think, period. The concern is the stupidity on display by thinking it was appropriate to wear on the field. And that's down not just to Escobar but also his teammates.
Exactly this is no worse than Delmon Young getting drunk, getting into a scuffle and using an anti-semitic remark. In fact with Escobar we all saw what he had on his eye black.

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09-18-2012, 10:46 AM
  #130
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I will say it sucks that we're having to talk about this today, when we should be talking about Buffalo, and Visquel. But you can't let something like this happen and then *not* talk about it - that's the same as condoning it. Just should never have happened.

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Old
09-18-2012, 10:49 AM
  #131
Lebanese Leaf
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Originally Posted by Ohio Jones View Post
I will say it sucks that we're having to talk about this today, when we should be talking about Buffalo, and Visquel. But you can't let something like this happen and then *not* talk about it - that's the same as condoning it. Just should never have happened.
I heard about Buffalo, but what's good with Omar?

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Old
09-18-2012, 11:00 AM
  #132
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Originally Posted by Lebanese Leaf View Post
I heard about Buffalo, but what's good with Omar?
Has a chance to pass Babe Ruth for career hits during this series in New York. What better place to do it, too.

(At least now we can dress Omar without having to scratch one of the kids, since Hechavarria should be playing SS for the rest of the season. Sigh.)

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Old
09-18-2012, 11:02 AM
  #133
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I don't agree with the suggestion of MLB suspending him for this, they cannot even sort out what to do when a player gets charged for a DUI offense or some type of disorderly conduct.

I don't agree with the suggestion of the Jays' trading him either because of this. If it is performance-related, and they feel they can upgrade at SS, then do it, but to trade a player when his value will deminish because of this instance, isn't very intelligent. Escobar, when he's on, is an elite defender at a premium position who hits for a good average and gets on base better than anyone on the team. He's not easy to replace.

The best thing for everybody, and for the Jays, is to deal with this issue personally themselves. The club should fine him, perhaps sit him out a couple games, and then just move on. It makes zero sense to overreact much more to this because I am sure nobody believes Escobar holds a personal grudge or hate towards the part of the community where the comments were alleged. It was most likely an unintelligent joke, or lack of awareness.

The important thing to do is to realize that of course people are going to react negatively, the media will grab a hold of it and paint the Jays' and their fans wrongly, and label Escobar as some homophobic, however; people will forget. The way social media and the news functions is to grab a headline, play around with it for a couple days, and then find something else. People are becoming wired this way now. So it makes no sense to overreact and trade a good baseball player because of this.

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Old
09-18-2012, 11:13 AM
  #134
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What kind of irritates me is that over half that dugout can read and write spanish, yet it was there all game.

Here's hoping for a decent explanation at 3:30.

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Old
09-18-2012, 11:34 AM
  #135
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Originally Posted by Lebanese Leaf View Post
Until you fix our pitching, there is no combination of batting order that's going to get me excited. I've never been as low about this team as I am after this year, because the fans and media all saw a hole in starting pitching that AA refused to address in the off-season, only to have it destroy our season.
Well yes, I agree, but I figured that was obvious. But regardless, the top 6 batters is still great anyways. I wouldn't as well call it AA refused to address it, it all fell apart.

Considering just about everyone got injured and the one guy expected to be solid has be everything short of that, and that's not something he can necessarily control.

McGowan went down before the season began.
Morrow was lost for a good portion of the season.
Drabek is injured.
Huthinson was starting to pitch consistently well, and got injured.

AND on top of that,

Luis Perez had tommy john surgery
Sergio Santos went down
Jesse Listch went down

3 of the starting 5 rotation went down. One before the season started, and the first call up went down. Lets look at that from a depth stand point.

1
2
3
4
5

Eventually at some point pitchers 2,3,4,and 5 went down leaving us with a rotation of:

1
4 (became apparent wasn't major league ready)
7
8
9

With 1 pitching like a number 10 in the depth, NO major league team is going to win with that. AA didn't address it clearly because e firgured it would be fine. 4 of the starting 5 rotation getting injured is far beyond his control and the supposed "ace" being horrible is as well. I'm not going to say the rotation was fantastic, but it's hard to even try to see holes when 4/5 of the rotation went down so early in the year. I'm just not going to throw AA under the bus for this season.

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09-18-2012, 11:51 AM
  #136
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Originally Posted by theaub View Post
If there was no punishment from the league I don't think anyone else would care if he wore it.
I care, so I guess you're wrong. And it comforts me that lots of others care too.

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Old
09-18-2012, 11:52 AM
  #137
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While we don't have all the information yet, it's pretty disheartening that Escobar would have that one his eye black and that a number of teammates who would have understood the reference would allow it to happen. It will be very interesting to see how the Blue Jays handle this at the press conference later this afternoon. This is an issue that might have more resonance in Toronto than anywhere else in Major League Baseball. I think it will tough, if just from a PR standpoint, to get away with just an apology.

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Old
09-18-2012, 12:06 PM
  #138
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lebanese Leaf View Post
Until you fix our pitching, there is no combination of batting order that's going to get me excited. I've never been as low about this team as I am after this year, because the fans and media all saw a hole in starting pitching that AA refused to address in the off-season, only to have it destroy our season.
That's all fine, but the other thing side of that coin is that it's not all too likely that **this** much can go wrong in one year.
Best hitter out for half the year.
De facto ace going in the toilet. Closer down for practically the whole year.
Starters dropping like flies, useful arms going down.
Etc, etc.....
Only one way to go....right?

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Old
09-18-2012, 12:07 PM
  #139
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Originally Posted by Lebanese Leaf View Post
Until you fix our pitching, there is no combination of batting order that's going to get me excited. I've never been as low about this team as I am after this year, because the fans and media all saw a hole in starting pitching that AA refused to address in the off-season, only to have it destroy our season.
Do you actually listen to anything AA has to say? AA specifically said last off season he wasn't pushing for the playoffs because the team had too many questions.

By the way, it was all the injuries to the offence that really killed the team.

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Old
09-18-2012, 12:10 PM
  #140
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People suggest "throwing money at him". Didn't we try and fail the same with Frank Thomas?
So because once we signed a guy under the same sort of circumstances it means we should never sign a older player? Do you have a problem with the way the 41 year old Oliver has pitched this year? Yes Ortiz is a gamble. But IMO he's a good gamble. I can understand you or anyone being hesitant to sign him but using Thomas as an example should not be the reason.

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09-18-2012, 12:22 PM
  #141
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So because once we signed a guy under the same sort of circumstances it means we should never sign a older player? Do you have a problem with the way the 41 year old Oliver has pitched this year? Yes Ortiz is a gamble. But IMO he's a good gamble. I can understand you or anyone being hesitant to sign him but using Thomas as an example should not be the reason.
I would be wary because he's old and just had a season ending injury this year. No way I would sign him to a multi year deal. A 1 year discounted deal is an option.

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09-18-2012, 12:24 PM
  #142
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What kind of irritates me is that over half that dugout can read and write spanish, yet it was there all game.

Here's hoping for a decent explanation at 3:30.
Agreed. The more I think about it the more irritated I become with many of our players. Guys like EE and Vizquel should have stopped this immediately or brought it to Farrell's attention. Farrell himself should have done what he could to figure out what was actually on his face. I think there's a lot of blame to go around on this one. You can pretty much guarantee though that you'll never see anything written on them again.

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Old
09-18-2012, 12:26 PM
  #143
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I would be wary because he's old and just had a season ending injury this year. No way I would sign him to a multi year deal. A 1 year discounted deal is an option.
I'm on the sign Ortiz bandwagon but that injury has me a little concerned as well. That's a legit reason to have hesitation. I'd be ok with a 2 year plus team option though.

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Old
09-18-2012, 12:38 PM
  #144
theaub
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Officially two years for Buffalo, fwiw

http://toronto.bluejays.mlb.com/news...r_tor&c_id=tor

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09-18-2012, 01:48 PM
  #145
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Agreed. The more I think about it the more irritated I become with many of our players. Guys like EE and Vizquel should have stopped this immediately or brought it to Farrell's attention. Farrell himself should have done what he could to figure out what was actually on his face. I think there's a lot of blame to go around on this one. You can pretty much guarantee though that you'll never see anything written on them again.
I bet if Jose was with the team that this would never have happened.

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09-18-2012, 01:54 PM
  #146
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I bet if Jose was with the team that this would never have happened.
As far as I know, he's been with the team for quite a while. He's just been in the clubhouse/dugout.

I heard an interesting opinion today. Could have been a prank by someone else on the team. Alot of players get a teammate to apply the eye-black (which is put on with a sticker), so that they can line it up correctly under their eyes. Whoever it was could have been trying to pull a fast one. We'll know soon enough.


Last edited by TootooTrain: 09-18-2012 at 02:04 PM. Reason: grammer
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Old
09-18-2012, 02:01 PM
  #147
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As far as I know, he's been with the team for quite a while. He's just been in the clubhouse/dugout.

I heard an interesting opinion today. Could have been a prank by someone else on the team. Alot of players get a teammate to apply the eye-black (which are put on with a sticker), so that they can line it up correctly under their eyes. Whoever it was could have been trying to pull a fast one. We'll know soon enough.
Really? I just don't think Jose would have let it happen. I could be wrong of course, but it looks like Bats has Escobar under his wing. If he would have noticed that, I think he would definitely not let him come out wearing that. But again, as I said, I could be wrong.

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09-18-2012, 02:09 PM
  #148
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Think of it from this angle, maybe nobody will notice that ricky is about to lose his franchise record leading 14th loss in a row.

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09-18-2012, 02:09 PM
  #149
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I bet if Jose was with the team that this would never have happened.
That's a joke. I'm sure the exact same thing would have happened. The fact that there are so many spanish speaking Jays just goes to show that this was a joke amongst the clubhouse rather than a derogatory remark towards all the gay people around the world.

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09-18-2012, 02:18 PM
  #150
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Officially two years for Buffalo, fwiw

http://toronto.bluejays.mlb.com/news...r_tor&c_id=tor
very much surprised it's only 2 years but regardless I'm pumped about it.

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