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Who do you hope 'wins', the owners or players' union?

View Poll Results: Which side do you favor more?
On balance I hope that the owners get more of what they are asking 61 56.48%
On balance I hope that the players get more of what they are asking 35 32.41%
I hope that they both go to hell, I am never watching hockey again. 7 6.48%
There is a strike? Who cares, Bella and Edward broke up, OMG. 5 4.63%
Voters: 108. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
09-15-2012, 10:51 PM
  #76
Rowdy Roddy Peeper
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Originally Posted by Tafkak View Post
Florida for some reason continues to be the most misguided example of people assuming a team should move. As someone else stated they have an amazing arena deal, are in the top 5 when it comes to corporate sponsorship money, and albeit the hockey operations does not bring in a lot of money, the owner's other properties do.

I feel as though people look at the two Florida teams, go "Tampa Bay has a cup, so we can't move them, let's move Florida!", and then come out looking like ***** when the numbers are thrown at them.
Forgive me for not being up to date on all the properties of the Florida Panthers' owner.

If they're making it work, swell. The same Forbes that people are using as gospel for their "NHL teams crying poor" feel their future is less than secure:

Quote:
The Panthers are worth $162 million, ranking among the NHL’s least valuable franchises, and the team hasn’t generated a profit for more than a decade. A second successful season could begin turning the Panthers’ fortunes around, but losing the season entirely could threaten the team’s very survival.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/chrissmi...n-nhl-lockout/

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09-15-2012, 11:03 PM
  #77
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Neither one is a good hockey city, and neither one will fill seats most seasons unless the team is a top contender. But I agree while the corp stuff is fine, the economics in south florida aren't good from the usual revenue source standpoint. THe economics in TB are not great generally last I heard. For relocation TB and PHX are the next two choices, should it happen. FLA and NYI would be the next two candidates IMO.

Or maybe not relocation but contraction. Anything is possible. Would make the league a helluva lot more competitive.

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09-15-2012, 11:05 PM
  #78
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The results have changed some since I last posted, when only a couple of votes separated mostly supporting the owners from players, and the results are more in line with what I sort of expected here in Pittsburgh. The wounds of almost moving, and the seeing how this team could, if managed well, actually compete and hold onto the best talent in this sport is really hard to argue against. The current cap works for us, for this market, and in spades, and there is no getting around that.

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09-15-2012, 11:13 PM
  #79
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It is not too shocking the Panthers have been in the red (no pun intended) considering how that team was managed before Tallon came in. It is hard to build up a fan base when you a trading players for magic beans. Even as the Panthers were doing well last season, you saw quite a few of them stay cautious because of the fear the team would just fail like before (they're like Pirate fans). They had been building up the fan base once again and they have good prospects. They may be in the red simply because of the past but they had the chance to finally get out of that. The lockout will only puncture a hole in the plan Tallon has and hurt the fans more.

That said and this is the important part, the owner of the Panthers, Sun Sports & Entertainment also controls the building the Panthers play in (the newly named BB&T Center). They have been losing money on the NHL side of things but can make money by owning the arena with other ventures. If the team leaves (which I believe has a harsh out clause), SS&E not only give up the NHL side, but also the money making arena.


Needless to say, for right now considering they have an owner and a good arena deal (which like I said before just got a loan for renovations), they are staying put. If the NHL moved teams for less I'm sure the Penguins would be somewhere else by now.


Last edited by KaylaJ: 09-15-2012 at 11:20 PM.
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09-15-2012, 11:16 PM
  #80
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Originally Posted by Chancellor Vitale View Post
Neither one is a good hockey city, and neither one will fill seats most seasons unless the team is a top contender. But I agree while the corp stuff is fine, the economics in south florida aren't good from the usual revenue source standpoint. THe economics in TB are not great generally last I heard. For relocation TB and PHX are the next two choices, should it happen. FLA and NYI would be the next two candidates IMO.

Or maybe not relocation but contraction. Anything is possible. Would make the league a helluva lot more competitive.
just an fyi, Tampa's average attendance was only 98 less people per game than us. Meanwhile, Florida averaged 62 people per game below Nashville, over 500 more than Carolina and over 1000 more than either Colorado or New Jersey. Both Florida teams are on the rise as far as fan support goes. Neither is going anywhere.


Last edited by Ogrezilla: 09-15-2012 at 11:29 PM.
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Old
09-16-2012, 06:58 AM
  #81
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If one side wins, we'll be right back here when the next CBA is up.

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09-16-2012, 07:14 AM
  #82
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Originally Posted by Slabber Chops View Post
Gives me a great idea. How about expanding to Christchurch, New Zealand. We're getting a brand spanking new covered stadium in the middle of our newly built CBD after the earthquake demolitions are completed. And when you look at the way the greenback is going, it makes us perfect for an NHL franchise
I agree ... go to New Zealand Christchurch .... only one problem ... after the quake no one is there anymore.

Slabber Chops - I am from Southbridge .. where are you in CHCH?

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09-16-2012, 10:42 AM
  #83
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If one side wins, we'll be right back here when the next CBA is up.
No matter which side wins, we'll be right back here when the next CBA is up.

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09-16-2012, 11:17 AM
  #84
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Originally Posted by Ragamuffin Gunner View Post
This is why I with the owners.

With guaranteed contracts a player can have a good year, sigh a big contract and then proceed to suck ass and still get paid every penny of his deal. Just look at Leino. He had one decent year and a great PO run and not he doesn't have to worry about money again for the rest of his life because of the contract he signed. Who cares if he doesn't score more than 30 points again? He's getting millions of dollars regardless of how he plays.

I just about every other profession, if you stop performing up to your contract you're gonna get fired.
I wish someone would tell the owners that so Bettman could gtfo of here.

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09-16-2012, 11:33 AM
  #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DyerMaker66 View Post
I wish someone would tell the owners that so Bettman could gtfo of here.
Wait, how hasn't Bettman lived up to his contract? Revenue has never been higher, albeit individual team profits could be improved.

He's helped grow the game, despite going through 3 lockouts, which is just an unfortunate byproduct of both side's bickering.

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09-16-2012, 12:09 PM
  #86
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Originally Posted by Tafkak View Post
Wait, how hasn't Bettman lived up to his contract? Revenue has never been higher, albeit individual team profits could be improved.

He's helped grow the game, despite going through 3 lockouts, which is just an unfortunate byproduct of both side's bickering.
Revenues have never been higher, yet he continues to cry poor for the owners in a system that HE put into place? He'll whine to the PA that they take up too much of the revenue, but who the **** has to put their signature on every contract?

"It's not him, it's the people he works for" you say? Again: Who the **** has to put their signatures on every contract their team signs? It's not as though Brian Burke can just go and sign who ever the **** he wants, at whatever price he wants without approval from both his owners and Bettman.

He hasn't helped it "grow" at all; what has grown is the Canadian dollar. Here's a small list of people who have helped the NHL grow:
Wayne Gretzky
Sidney Crosby
Alex Ovechkin
Mario Lemieux

He has held it back by attempting to force hockey into markets where it should not be (*cough* Atlanta *cough*), rather than focusing on untapped markets who already watch the game.

Bettman's done his job when we'll have been through 2 full seasons without hockey with him in charge?

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09-16-2012, 12:16 PM
  #87
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Originally Posted by Tafkak View Post
Wait, how hasn't Bettman lived up to his contract? Revenue has never been higher, albeit individual team profits could be improved.

He's helped grow the game, despite going through 3 lockouts, which is just an unfortunate byproduct of both side's bickering.
That all depends on what you think a commissioner should do.

If it's provide a framework for at least half of his league's teams to be profitable, and you believe the numbers NHL teams have released, then it's difficult to make the case that he's done a good job.

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09-16-2012, 01:06 PM
  #88
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Originally Posted by Rowdy Roddy Peeper View Post
No matter which side wins, we'll be right back here when the next CBA is up.
Yeah, if someone "wins" this negotiation. If it's an agreement that makes sense for both sides, there's really no point in locking a league out.

This is incredibly frustrating, and not just because I want to see hockey in the worst way. It's frustrating because the league is just hurting itself. Both sides' greed is going to alienate fans...again. That just hurts what they are fighting over in the first place, and that's the money.

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09-16-2012, 01:14 PM
  #89
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Originally Posted by JTG View Post
Yeah, if someone "wins" this negotiation. If it's an agreement that makes sense for both sides, there's really no point in locking a league out.

This is incredibly frustrating, and not just because I want to see hockey in the worst way. It's frustrating because the league is just hurting itself. Both sides' greed is going to alienate fans...again. That just hurts what they are fighting over in the first place, and that's the money.
I'm not even that confident, man. I mean, the side that "won" last time is the side that's so unsatisfied with the current CBA that they refuse to continue under it.

I just think there's going to be perpetual strife every time the CBA expires.

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09-16-2012, 01:23 PM
  #90
Til the End of Time
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bettman fought hard to keep the penguins in pittsburgh and fought for the cba that allowed the penguins to win the cup.

for that he will likely always have my support.

ot but ive met his son, he works for bain capital (romney's old company). dude is loaded but a nice guy.

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09-16-2012, 01:44 PM
  #91
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nice info on garys son...
http://www.baincapitalventures.com/y...ordan-bettman/

very cheesy.

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09-16-2012, 01:57 PM
  #92
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Originally Posted by Til the End of Time View Post
nice info on garys son...
http://www.baincapitalventures.com/y...ordan-bettman/

very cheesy.
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Jordan received a BS in Industrial and Labor Relations from Cornell University
Jordan, please give your old man a call.

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09-16-2012, 01:58 PM
  #93
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DyerMaker66 View Post
He has held it back by attempting to force hockey into markets where it should not be (*cough* Atlanta *cough*), rather than focusing on untapped markets who already watch the game.

Bettman's done his job when we'll have been through 2 full seasons without hockey with him in charge?
You can't 'grow' the game by continuing to focus on markets that are saturated to begin with. You can't grow the game in already core markets, such as Canada and the U.S. Northeast.

However, you can grow the game by putting it in untapped markets like Dallas, San Jose, and other southern markets where the game has a lot of room to grow and find new fan support. For every bad team or struggling team, he has had a successful one.

Sure, he's made mistakes, every Commissioner has had their share of troubles or rough spots. But you would be hard pressed to find a (current) Commish that has grown their respective game as Bettman has. There were some flaws in the first CBA with a cap, revenue sharing was/is not strong enough. That needs to be improved and, yeah, he does need to reign in his owners that are giving out ludicrous contracts. Otherwise, this system is just a few tweaks away from being where it needs to be.

Further, as others have mentioned Bettman gets my automatic support as he was one of the prime forces that kept the Penguins in Pittsburgh. When talks broke down between Rendell and the Pens, Bettman was THE person that stepped in. Not to mention he was the man who got the league to into a hard salary cap, which allowed the Pens to compete. If someone were to say the Pen's would be able to keep this amount of talent under a luxury tax or non-capped league... They'd be a liar.

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09-16-2012, 02:09 PM
  #94
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tafkak View Post
You can't 'grow' the game by continuing to focus on markets that are saturated to begin with. You can't grow the game in already core markets, such as Canada and the U.S. Northeast.

However, you can grow the game by putting it in untapped markets like Dallas, San Jose, and other southern markets where the game has a lot of room to grow and find new fan support. For every bad team or struggling team, he has had a successful one.

Sure, he's made mistakes, every Commissioner has had their share of troubles or rough spots. But you would be hard pressed to find a (current) Commish that has grown their respective game as Bettman has. There were some flaws in the first CBA with a cap, revenue sharing was/is not strong enough. That needs to be improved and, yeah, he does need to reign in his owners that are giving out ludicrous contracts. Otherwise, this system is just a few tweaks away from being where it needs to be.

Further, as others have mentioned Bettman gets my automatic support as he was one of the prime forces that kept the Penguins in Pittsburgh. When talks broke down between Rendell and the Pens, Bettman was THE person that stepped in. Not to mention he was the man who got the league to into a hard salary cap, which allowed the Pens to compete. If someone were to say the Pen's would be able to keep this amount of talent under a luxury tax or non-capped league... They'd be a liar.
They should target northern middle America a lot more. Cleveland, Cincinnati, Kansas City, Green Bay and such to help close the travel gap for the western teams. Or it can go into a 3 regional league.

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09-16-2012, 02:13 PM
  #95
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Originally Posted by Tafkak View Post
You can't 'grow' the game by continuing to focus on markets that are saturated to begin with. You can't grow the game in already core markets, such as Canada and the U.S. Northeast.

However, you can grow the game by putting it in untapped markets like Dallas, San Jose, and other southern markets where the game has a lot of room to grow and find new fan support. For every bad team or struggling team, he has had a successful one.
Then you sir, are lost. How does one build a tower? Do you start from the sky and work your way down, or do you build a strong foundation and work your way up?

There are untapped areas in core markets that can be used to create a solid base to support whatever future expansion plans he may have, but instead he chooses to ignore practicality and intelligence and tried to force the NHL in places it shouldn't be, thus hurting the business.
Quote:
Sure, he's made mistakes, every Commissioner has had their share of troubles or rough spots. But you would be hard pressed to find a (current) Commish that has grown their respective game as Bettman has. There were some flaws in the first CBA with a cap, revenue sharing was/is not strong enough. That needs to be improved and, yeah, he does need to reign in his owners that are giving out ludicrous contracts. Otherwise, this system is just a few tweaks away from being where it needs to be.
The problem is not that the cap is not strong enough, it's that he made it too strong. He tried to stick it to the players and he ended up getting burned.

So basically, what you're saying is that he does nothing productive at all: Trying to force the NHL in places that don't watch it, not keeping control of the NHL's members, forcing a system onto them that's causing them to lose money. It's sounds to me like he doesn't know how to do his job.

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09-16-2012, 02:20 PM
  #96
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Originally Posted by Rowdy Roddy Peeper View Post
For every underperforming Leino, there's an overperforming Giroux.

If you think owners should have the right to release players like Leino, players like Giroux should have the right to renegotiate contracts.

Either that, or leave things as is. Which seems a lot more reasonable to me.
I'd be fine with that. Being able to re-negotiate contracts goes both ways.

Quote:
Maybe players should take a 90% salary reduction. After all, it's 10% better than getting fired.

Then the NHL could finally have enough money to expand to Brazil and Argentina.
hyperbole

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09-16-2012, 02:21 PM
  #97
Til the End of Time
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Originally Posted by DyerMaker66 View Post
Then you sir, are lost. How does one build a tower? Do you start from the sky and work your way down, or do you build a strong foundation and work your way up?

There are untapped areas in core markets that can be used to create a solid base to support whatever future expansion plans he may have, but instead he chooses to ignore practicality and intelligence and tried to force the NHL in places it shouldn't be, thus hurting the business.


The problem is not that the cap is not strong enough, it's that he made it too strong. He tried to stick it to the players and he ended up getting burned.

So basically, what you're saying is that he does nothing productive at all: Trying to force the NHL in places that don't watch it, not keeping control of the NHL's members, forcing a system onto them that's causing them to lose money. It's sounds to me like he doesn't know how to do his job.
this makes my head hurt. how can you say this?

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09-16-2012, 02:25 PM
  #98
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Originally Posted by Ragamuffin Gunner View Post
I'd be fine with that. Being able to re-negotiate contracts goes both ways.

wouldn't we start seeing Mike Wallace style hold outs? No thanks.

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09-16-2012, 02:32 PM
  #99
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Originally Posted by Til the End of Time View Post
this makes my head hurt. how can you say this?


Q: Why have salaries continued to rise at a seemingly large rate?

A: Because Revenues and Salaries are directly linked in this cap system.

How can you not see that?

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09-16-2012, 02:33 PM
  #100
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Originally Posted by Ragamuffin Gunner View Post
I'd be fine with that. Being able to re-negotiate contracts goes both ways.
We're definitely on different sides on this one. I'd rather deal with Martin's contract than get burned with Letang's.

Quote:
hyperbole
Taking the idea to its logical conclusion to show its absurdity.

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