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Ownership Cluster**** Thread: NHL and GJ, Put Up or Shut Up!

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Old
11-08-2012, 09:03 AM
  #276
pepty
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Originally Posted by Devils Advocate View Post
Definitely....at least a 50% chance....but it would take 2 weeks..

The NHL has been standing by Glendale but if Glendale can't or won't keep the team, then maybe they could look at other arenas like the Islanders have just done.

When the subject is reviewed here it is said that Glendale is too far out ; the fans are there but in Phoenix and Scottsdale but don't want to go out to Glendale and that if it could be in arena closer to the population centers attendance would not be as much of a problem.

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11-08-2012, 09:11 AM
  #277
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It’s not a terrible idea to move the Yotes back but the main reason the NHL has been trying to keep them in Glendale is because they built a team a stadium. To run from that would be setting up future failures when cities are asked to build an arena for a team because they could leave way before a lease expires (not to mention the people who fund the construction would be really upset).

Another issue I have seen is Jamison would be a tenant and second class citizen at US Airways. Which with fewer revenues (the reason they left in the first place), it makes it even harder to pull in a profit (they did in 2000 but it all went to the stadium owners and not the team owner).

I have no doubt that averages would shoot up about 2,000 a game but the obstacles to overcome are too great; unless Phoenix would step up to correct those which I don’t see happening.

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11-08-2012, 09:33 AM
  #278
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Attendance might go up, but they'd still lose more money. There is a reason why they needed to build their own arena. In hindsight, I'm sure both Glendale and the Coyotes organization probably feel like it was a mistake to go to Westgate, but there is nothing that can be done about that now. It is Glendale or bust.

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11-08-2012, 12:25 PM
  #279
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Originally Posted by naurutger View Post
It’s not a terrible idea to move the Yotes back but the main reason the NHL has been trying to keep them in Glendale is because they built a team a stadium. To run from that would be setting up future failures when cities are asked to build an arena for a team because they could leave way before a lease expires (not to mention the people who fund the construction would be really upset).
This would still happen anyway if the Coyotes are relocated out of Arizona.

Quote:
Another issue I have seen is Jamison would be a tenant and second class citizen at US Airways. Which with fewer revenues (the reason they left in the first place), it makes it even harder to pull in a profit (they did in 2000 but it all went to the stadium owners and not the team owner).

I have no doubt that averages would shoot up about 2,000 a game but the obstacles to overcome are too great; unless Phoenix would step up to correct those which I don’t see happening.
Give all that has happened in the past, I welcome trying to workout something with the city of Phoenix. Hell, such a move may put pressue on Sarver to either start putting a better product with the Suns or pressure for him to sell. Since the NHL is willing to put the Islanders in Brooklyn with a smaller seating and limited view seats, it would be bad on the league here if they didn't try to do something with the city of Phoenix here and just flat out moved the team.


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11-08-2012, 12:59 PM
  #280
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This would still happen anyway if the Coyotes are relocated out of Arizona.



Give all that has happened in the past, I welcome trying to workout something with the city of Phoenix. Hell, such a move may put pressue on Sarver to either start putting a better product with the Suns or pressure for him to sell. Since the NHL is willing to put the Islanders in Brooklyn with a smaller seating and limited view seats, it would be bad on the league here if they didn't try to do something with the city of Phoenix here and just flat out moved the team.
Yes, but if you are willing to torch good faith arena construction by leaving COG in a lurch than you may as well move the team to a place like QC or Seattle where they can lose money in a dump old rink (just like the Phoenix Suns basketball arena) for a season or two before moving into a brand new state of the art kind of facility. Obviously Mesa, Tempe, or Scottsdale aren't going to jump at the chance to build the Coyotes a new arena if there is one sitting in Glendale collecting dust, buried under mountains of debt.

Leaving Glendale is going for short-term gain. Phoenix does not help in that respect. QC or Seattle or GTA certainly does.

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11-08-2012, 01:15 PM
  #281
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Yes, but if you are willing to torch good faith arena construction by leaving COG in a lurch than you may as well move the team to a place like QC or Seattle where they can lose money in a dump old rink (just like the Phoenix Suns basketball arena) for a season or two before moving into a brand new state of the art kind of facility. Obviously Mesa, Tempe, or Scottsdale aren't going to jump at the chance to build the Coyotes a new arena if there is one sitting in Glendale collecting dust, buried under mountains of debt.

Leaving Glendale is going for short-term gain. Phoenix does not help in that respect. QC or Seattle or GTA certainly does.
As far as I'm concerned, I can and I won't give a **** about the NHL losing creditibility in the new sports building department seeing they are willing to put the city of and the citizens of Glendale at risk by relocating the team no matter where that team is moved to. What I care about is keeping the team in Arizona and I'm open minded enough to explore going back to Phoenix. Besides, more and more people in the United States today oppose more govement funding for new sports venues as shown in the rejection of a new Islanders arena in Nassau County by the voters.

As far as the other cities you mentioned, almost all of them were not interested in having a new building for a team like the Coyotes well before Glendale even built the team a new arena and that is not going to change no matter what. As far as Scottdale is concered, I wouldn't be surprised if the City of Scottsdale is breathing a sigh of relief that they are glad they are not in the mess the City of Glendale is in. The city of Scottsdale council members of the past are looking more and more like geniuses in their mind for not going forward with giving the team a new arena given the mess in Glendale.

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11-08-2012, 04:18 PM
  #282
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Joyce Clark was on http://thefan1060.com/listen-live

Quick summary:

She said the vote will take place on 11/27/12, believes all 4 previous "yes" votes will stay the same (Jamison met with the 4 on Wed.), and the Mayor is probably planning on throwing a wrench in the plan until January.


Last edited by Naurutger: 11-08-2012 at 04:30 PM. Reason: Updates
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11-08-2012, 05:22 PM
  #283
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Quote:
Originally Posted by naurutger View Post
Joyce Clark was on http://thefan1060.com/listen-live

Quick summary:

She said the vote will take place on 11/27/12, believes all 4 previous "yes" votes will stay the same (Jamison met with the 4 on Wed.), and the Mayor is probably planning on throwing a wrench in the plan until January.
I really don't get why the mayor had such a turnabout. What the heck happened to cause her to try to sabotage the deal?

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11-08-2012, 06:07 PM
  #284
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I really don't get why the mayor had such a turnabout. What the heck happened to cause her to try to sabotage the deal?
Who knows?? For all we know, this could be a tactic in the blame game where should the team end up leaving, the blame would be placed on the new squad running the show in the future than on those currently running the show since the banruptcy happened.

Sounds like a streach but really, who knows?


Last edited by Colt45Blast: 11-08-2012 at 06:19 PM. Reason: Needed to be more clear
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11-09-2012, 02:36 AM
  #285
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Quote:
Originally Posted by naurutger View Post
Joyce Clark was on http://thefan1060.com/listen-live

Quick summary:

She said the vote will take place on 11/27/12, believes all 4 previous "yes" votes will stay the same (Jamison met with the 4 on Wed.), and the Mayor is probably planning on throwing a wrench in the plan until January.
I just don't get this at all, I mean she endorsed the hell out of all the other deals and from my understanding Jamison's is actually the best of the bunch yet she wants to sabotage it?! ****ing politicians, they're not worth the skin they're printed on.

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11-09-2012, 09:32 AM
  #286
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I just don't get this at all, I mean she endorsed the hell out of all the other deals and from my understanding Jamison's is actually the best of the bunch yet she wants to sabotage it?! ****ing politicians, they're not worth the skin they're printed on.
When did she say she was getting out of politics? Didn't that announcement come at the same time as she changed her mind on the Coyotes situation? Maybe after she decided on that she also decided there was no point in taking part in the popularity contest anymore and started to vote her true beliefs? That or bribes, of course.

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Old
11-09-2012, 11:06 AM
  #287
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Her legacy will be she threw $50M at a team, only to attempt to later secure their exit. Whatever???? If that was the end-game, I certainly would want her to justify her prior votes to send $25M annually to the NHL. Either she really is that stupid, or she is doing this out of spite. Either way, I find it hard to understand her turnabout.

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11-09-2012, 12:34 PM
  #288
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Originally Posted by goyotes View Post
Her legacy will be she threw $50M at a team, only to attempt to later secure their exit. Whatever???? If that was the end-game, I certainly would want her to justify her prior votes to send $25M annually to the NHL. Either she really is that stupid, or she is doing this out of spite. Either way, I find it hard to understand her turnabout.
Now that we've managed to get goyotes and RR to come out of hiding for a brief moment, I'd love to hear what you two make of this whole thing.

Are you surprised this council appears poised to try to close a deal two weeks before the new council takes their seats?

Do you expect another referendum effort on the matter?

What impact could that have? If this is delayed until the new council is sitting, does this deal get killed?

I'm more or less looking for a basic run down from folks who actually understand what is going on (not me, not by any stretch) and are actually rooting for the Coyotes to stay (NOBODY on the main board).

Please and thanks!

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11-09-2012, 02:36 PM
  #289
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I expect the council majority will try and get it to a vote. However, my understanding is they have some limitations in terms of what the city manager puts on the agenda. If the manager has a deal with GJ, he may get in on the agenda before the new council is seated. If he wants to keep his job long-term, I doubt this council ever gets a chance to vote. If they do, the agreement has to be made public one week before a council vote. I am leaning towards this doesn't get voted on until the new council is seated. If the deal has changed materially in favor of the CoG, a new council may approve a deal with GJ. I would be surprised, however.

I expect there will be an attempt to refer the matter to the voters. Given the number of votes cast in the last election, the number of signatures for a referral will need to be something in excess of 3,000. Organizers may have a better chance this time as I think there will be some public outcry over having Clark, et al, vote on an arena management deal with the incoming council members already on record as being against the deal. Signatures may be easier to collect this time of year, and the public may be more inclined to refer the matter given the eleventh hour vote by an out-going council.

If I were a betting man, I would not hold out too much hope this gets done, which is why I have a hard time seeing how Scruggs is going to explain her leadership as mayor which took the city down a nearly three year path and cost $50M, only for her to reverse course with no credible explanation as to why she changed her mind.

I don't live in Glendale, but I feel particularly bad for the people who do. Their troubles will only be starting if the Coyotes leave. Westgate will plunge back into trouble for sure. The City would be on the positive $100M had the taken Ballsack's offer during the Moyes bankruptcy. What terrible leadership the City is showing if they reverse course at this point. They would be better off to try and see this through for 5 years or so, and hope GJ buys the arena.

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11-10-2012, 06:43 AM
  #290
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I really don't get why the mayor had such a turnabout. What the heck happened to cause her to try to sabotage the deal?
She has been slipping mentally for the last couple years. I wouldn't be surpised if she goes from being mayor to a retirement home. She definitely needs help.

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11-10-2012, 11:43 AM
  #291
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I for one wouldn't mind hockey back in downtown!

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11-10-2012, 12:44 PM
  #292
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I for one wouldn't mind hockey back in downtown!
It may happen, but it will be the American league, the East Coast legue, or the Central league. Round three or four of the Roadrunners?

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11-10-2012, 03:41 PM
  #293
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Did you guys know that successful Canadian teams will always be successful?

Did you also know that struggling American teams south of the Mason Dixon line with always struggle?

In further, even more frightening news:

The average high temperature in Phoenix in August was 105. In September is was 100. Last month it was an alarming 90 degrees for an average high. The projected average high for this month is a relatively frigid 75 degrees. We've dropped 30 degrees in four months. By March our average high temperature might be 45 degrees. By June? The high temperature in Phoenix could be fifteen degrees. It's a horrible thought.

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11-10-2012, 07:48 PM
  #294
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Originally Posted by goyotes View Post
The City would be on the positive $100M had the taken Ballsack's offer during the Moyes bankruptcy.
In what alternate universe? The league was neither going to approve Baldsilly as an owner, nor was it going to approve a move to Hamilton.

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11-11-2012, 09:40 PM
  #295
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With all the discussion that there has been on this long thread, I cannot believe that there are still some posters making comments about moving the team to another Phoenix area arena. (as if that is the solution)
The team will either play in Glendale or be relocated to another city.
I am also baffled by the fact that CoG has a buyer for the team that they have fought so hard to keep, and that they now can't get their act together to get the lease deal done.
And now CoG are trying to put the blame on Jameson for their own disfunction.

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11-12-2012, 12:22 AM
  #296
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Originally Posted by rt View Post
Did you guys know that successful Canadian teams will always be successful?

Did you also know that struggling American teams south of the Mason Dixon line with always struggle?

In further, even more frightening news:

The average high temperature in Phoenix in August was 105. In September is was 100. Last month it was an alarming 90 degrees for an average high. The projected average high for this month is a relatively frigid 75 degrees. We've dropped 30 degrees in four months. By March our average high temperature might be 45 degrees. By June? The high temperature in Phoenix could be fifteen degrees. It's a horrible thought.
You might consider staying off the BoH board.

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11-12-2012, 01:04 AM
  #297
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With all the discussion that there has been on this long thread, I cannot believe that there are still some posters making comments about moving the team to another Phoenix area arena.
I can't speak for others. I myself tend to be objective and open-minded when it comes to the issues of the day. As I present my arguements, I usually use something known as truth and facts to back it up without resorting to personal attacks of others. In fact, attacking others is a huge sign from the attacker that he/she lacks both the sophistication and stubstance needed to not only make his or own her arguments but also to counter the arguments of others.

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11-12-2012, 01:40 AM
  #298
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The City would be on the positive $100M had the taken Ballsack's offer during the Moyes bankruptcy.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Matzel View Post
In what alternate universe? The league was neither going to approve Baldsilly as an owner, nor was it going to approve a move to Hamilton.
That and once the team got put into bankruptcy, the City of Glendale had no leverage whatsoever as a result of a judge who chose to ignore the rulings of the Penguins and the Islanders in relation to their lease agreements where both were upheld in court. Instead the judge was more concerned about deciding on wheater the league or the courts decides on who can own a team and where a team can play based on his origional no sale ruling. At best, the only thing the City of Glendale could have done once the judge decided to not help protect the taxpayer was to be a cheerleader for either the league or for Moyes and Basillie. However, who the city cheered for was not going to influence the judge either way in his ruling seeing the judge cited a ruling from the courts in Canada that only sports leagues decide who can be an owner of a team and decide where a team plays.

Overall, the judge only got it half right.


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11-12-2012, 10:35 AM
  #299
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Putting aside all the political pitfalls and fallout of another local city or 'burb poaching the team from Glendale which I think would be serious roadblocks to that effort, even putting that aside, I don't see the idea of moving the team downtown or expecting another Arizona suburb to build them an equivalent arena as realistic. And I don't see any private business deciding it would make sense to build a new $230+ arena in Scottsdale or Chandler or Phoenix to house the team, and I don't see Robert Sarver offering to buy the team or partner with someone else to buy it yet. I think he has his hands full with the Suns.

But that really doesn't matter. Let someone with the money to do it come forward and announce he wants to do that, or let Sarver announce he wants to buy into the team and move it to downtown. Then it is something worth talking about. Until then, I think it's just 'dreaming online'.

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11-12-2012, 10:46 AM
  #300
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In what alternate universe? The league was neither going to approve Baldsilly as an owner, nor was it going to approve a move to Hamilton.
You do know that Ballsack's offer to the CoG was not contingent on him getting the team, but merely on the CoG throwing itself behind the sale to Ballsack? All the City had to do was agree to not contest Ballsack as a buyer, and of course, agree to forgo its claim of damages if the lease was allowed to be breached. Had the City done that, the City would be positive $100M.

My point wasn't that the City should have done this. My point was those decisions to not make a deal with Ballsack and to put up two $25M payments, were all made under Scrugg's leadership and her as the primary cheerleader. How she can now justify those decisions while working towards ensuring the Coyotes leave town, is beyond me. It amounts to throwing away $100M in my opinion. I was simply calling her out as a terrible leader.

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