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Tim Kerr - Would he have a shot at the HHOF?

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Old
09-20-2012, 06:47 PM
  #51
TheDevilMadeMe
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ag925 View Post
Same can be said for the likes of Brian Rafalski and Calle Johansson. Small sample sizes are small sample sizes. Again, if you're going to reward LeClair for a very short peak, you've got to do the same with Kerr.
LeClair was an All Star in 2 best on best tournaments and Rafalski was in just one.

Not to mention for those of us who watched 1996, LeClair was arguably the best skater in the tournament

LeClair's peak was both higher and longer than Kerr's

Edit: my thoughts? Lindros helpe LeClair become the player he was, but once Lexlair hit that level, he maintained it even when Eric wasn't there


Last edited by TheDevilMadeMe: 09-20-2012 at 06:53 PM.
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Old
09-20-2012, 07:22 PM
  #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
LeClair was an All Star in 2 best on best tournaments and Rafalski was in just one.

Not to mention for those of us who watched 1996, LeClair was arguably the best skater in the tournament

LeClair's peak was both higher and longer than Kerr's

Edit: my thoughts? Lindros helpe LeClair become the player he was, but once Lexlair hit that level, he maintained it even when Eric wasn't there
When was this? For 54 games? Wow.

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09-20-2012, 07:23 PM
  #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Most here consider 1996-97 the true start of the dead puck era
Lockout to lockout, homie. Web it up.

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09-21-2012, 10:33 AM
  #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ag925 View Post
John LeClair was a point-per-game player only while centered by Lindros, from 94-99. Not a moment before and not a moment after. You put him in, you're putting Kerr in

The fact that Adam Oates has one postseason all-star selection and Luc Robitaille has EIGHT goes to show how weak a HHOF measurement postseason all-star team selections is. Not all positions are created equally.
Have to agree.

Centers who played during Oates career:
Wayne Gretzky
Mark Messier
Joe Nieuwendyk
Doug Gilmour
Joe Sakic
Steve Yzerman
Mats Sundin
Ron Francis
Sergei Federov
Mike Modano
Pat Lafontaine
Pierre Turgeon
Jeremy Roenick
Peter Forsberg
Denis Savard
Peter Stastny

That's a pretty hefty crew to have to choose just 2 spots every year. Plus Oates was always a low-key kind of guy, never really was one for tooting his own horn.....at least that's what I remember from him.

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09-21-2012, 11:27 AM
  #55
Hawkey Town 18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ag925 View Post
Lockout to lockout, homie. Web it up.
Looking at league scoring levels here, http://dropyourgloves.com/Stat/LeagueGoals.aspx, it appears that the true DPE was from 97-98 to 03-04. The scoring levels in 94-95, 95-96, and 96-97 were higher than almost every season we've had since the lockout.

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Old
09-21-2012, 11:38 AM
  #56
Morgoth Bauglir
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Goals per game (including playoffs) from 1990 to today:

1990-91 - 6.8
1991-92 - 7.0
1992-93 - 7.2
1993-94 - 6.4
1994-95 - 6.0
1995-96 - 6.2
1996-97 - 5.8
1997-98 - 5.2
1998-99 - 5.2
1999-00 - 5.4
2000-01 - 5.4
2001-02 - 5.2
2002-03 - 5.2
2003-04 - 5.0
2004-05 - x.x
2005-06 - 6.0
2006-07 - 5.8
2007-08 - 5.4
2008-09 - 5.6
2009-10 - 5.6
2010-11 - 5.4
2011-12 - 5.2


Last edited by Morgoth Bauglir: 10-12-2012 at 11:35 AM.
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Old
09-21-2012, 11:49 AM
  #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SaintPatrick33 View Post
Goals per game (including playoffs) from 1990 to today:

1990 - 6.8
1991 - 7.0
1992 - 7.2
1993 - 6.4
1994 - 6.0
1995 - 6.2
1996 - 5.8
1997 - 5.2
1998 - 5.2
1999 - 5.4
2000 - 5.4
2001 - 5.2
2002 - 5.2
2003 - 5.0
2004 - x.x
2005 - 6.0
2006 - 5.8
2007 - 5.4
2008 - 5.6
2009 - 5.6
2010 - 5.4
2011 - 5.2
You're going to confuse people around here with the way you noted years. Usually, we use "2011" as shorthand for 2010-11, not 2011-12, since that's when the playoffs are.

Nicely done, adding the playoff numbers in

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Old
09-21-2012, 11:50 AM
  #58
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Here's an interesting stat.

in 5 seasons (4 full seasons) Kerr scored 108 Power play goals. (106 in the 4 full seasons)

Neither Gretzky nor Lemieux touched that

That is impressive.

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Old
09-21-2012, 11:54 AM
  #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hawkey Town 18 View Post
Looking at league scoring levels here, http://dropyourgloves.com/Stat/LeagueGoals.aspx, it appears that the true DPE was from 97-98 to 03-04. The scoring levels in 94-95, 95-96, and 96-97 were higher than almost every season we've had since the lockout.
Whether you start thinkin about the DPE in 97-98 or 96-97, it's pretty clear that the high scoring 1995-96 (when 12 players broke 100 points) should not be included.

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09-21-2012, 11:54 AM
  #60
Morgoth Bauglir
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
You're going to confuse people around here with the way you noted years. Usually, we use "2011" as shorthand for 2010-11, not 2011-12, since that's when the playoffs are.

Nicely done, adding the playoff numbers in
I fixed it for clarity I keep the stats handy since I'm working on a big project right now that I need them for lol


Last edited by Morgoth Bauglir: 10-12-2012 at 11:36 AM.
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Old
09-21-2012, 11:57 AM
  #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Whether you start thinkin about the DPE in 97-98 or 96-97, it's pretty clear that the high scoring 1995-96 (when 12 players broke 100 points) should not be included.
Judging by the numbers I posted I'd characterize the seasons of 93-94 through 95-96 as transition years between the firewagon era and the dead puck era.


Last edited by Morgoth Bauglir: 10-12-2012 at 11:36 AM.
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Old
09-21-2012, 12:12 PM
  #62
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One of the main points people forget is did the opposing coach and team make a game plan to shut a certain player out and did this inhence allow other players to get more scoring opportunities?

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09-21-2012, 03:38 PM
  #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BubbaBoot View Post
Herein lies where the difference is.

Kerr led the NHL in PP goals 3 times in those 4 seasons , (in essentially 9 or so full yrs).

Led NHL in PP goals:
Neely - 1
Ovechkin - 1
Bure - 1 (SH goals - 1)
Andreychuk - 2 (in 23 years)
Brett Hull - 3 (in 18 yrs)
Selanne - 2 (in 19 yrs)
Bondra - 2 (SH goals 1) in 17 yrs.
Lemieux - 2 (SH - 3)
Bossy - 3 (scored 200 more goals in 100 more games than Kerr)
Gretzky - 1 (SH - 5)
Esposito - 5 (SH - 1)
Secord - 1
Nieuwendyk - 1

He has a small EV goals to PP goals ratio, generally making him a "special teams" player.

Andreychuk 1.3:1
Ryan Smyth 1.38:1 (374 career goals)
Bellows 1.38:1 (485 career goals)
Kevin Stevens 1.46:1 (329 career goals)
Kerr 1.47:1 (370 career goals)
Tkacuk 1.48:1
Heatley 1.51:1 (349 career goals)
Nieuwendyk 1.57:1
Larmer 1.57:1
Owen Nolan 1.57:1
Muller 1.58:1
Mellanby 1.59:1
Ciccarelli 1.62:1
Roenick 1.64:1
Selanne 1.65:1
Hejduk 1.65:1 (371 career goals)
Pierre Turgeon 1.66:1
Yashin 1.66:1 (337 career goals)
Shanahan 1.67:1
Doug Wilson 1.68:1
Robitaille 1.69:1
Daniel Sedin 1.71:1
Sylvain Turgeon 1.72:1
Brett Hull 1.72:1
Mario Lemieux 1.72:1
Simmer 1.72:1
Hawerchuk 1.77:1
Kariya 1.77:1
Neely 1.77:1
Verbeek 1.78:1
Esposito 1.79:1
Coffey 1.79:1 (396 career goals)
Recchi 1.8:1
Joe Thornton 1.81:1
Gilmour 1.82:1
Brind'Amour 1.85:1
Ray Sheppard 1.85:1 (357 career goals)
Bobby Smith 1.85:1 (357 career goals)
Greg Adams 1.85:1 (355 career goals)
Ron Francis 1.86:1
Arnott 1.86:1
Sykora 1.86:1
Sakic 1.89:1
Bertuzzi 1.9:1 (303 career goals)
Alfredsson 1.91:1
LaFontaine 1.93:1
Kovalchuk 1.94:1 (406 career goals)
Bernie Nicholls 1.94:1
Goulet 1.99:1
Vaive 2.01:1
Trevor Linden 2:1 (375 career goals)
Ovechkin 2.02:1
Dionne 2.04:1
Stastny 2.06:1
Federko 2.08:1 (369 career goals)
Markus Naslund 2.09:1 (395 career goals)
Fedorov 2.1:1
Bossy 2.12:1
MacLeish 2.13:1 (349 career goals)
Trottier 2.14:1
Ray Ferraro 2.14:1 (408 career goals)
Bondra 2.16:1
Gartner 2.16:1
Iginla 2.16:1
Sittler 2.16:1
Marleau 2.17:1 (387 career goals)
Kovalev 2.17:1 (428 career goals)
Yzerman 2.18:1
Damphousse 2.19:1
Oates 2.19:1 (341 career goals)
Anderson 2.21:1
Mogilny 2.21:1
Marian Hossa 2.21:1 (417 career goals)
Ogrodnick 2.25:1 (402 career goals)
Dave Christian 2.25:1 (340 career goals)
Wendel Clark 2.27:1 (330 career goals)
Claude Lemieux 2.27:1 (379 career goals)
Joe Mullen 2.27:1
Crosby 2.28:1
Tocchet 2.28:1
Forsberg 2.28:1
Bobby Clarke 2.29:1 (358 career goals)
Lindros 2.29:1 (372 career goals)
Guerin 2.29:1 (429 career goals)
Bure 2.33:1
Sundin 2.33:1
Orr 2.34:1
Rick Martin 2.34:1 (384 career goals)
Lecavalier 2.36:1 (373 career goals)
Propp 2.36:1 (425 career goals)
Modano 2.39:1
Dale Hunter 2.4:1 (323 career goals)
Geoff Courtnall 2.41:1 (367 career goals)
Leclair 2.43:1 (406 career goals)
Gillies 2.43:1 (319 career goals)
Ray Whitney 2.43:1 (365 career goals)
Jagr 2.46:1
Berenson 2.46:1
Boldirev 2.51:1 (361 career goals)
St. Louis 2.51:1 (323 career goals)
McDonald 2.52:1
Messier 2.53:1
Denis Savard 2.57:1
Rick Kehoe 2.63:1 (371 career goals)
Kurri 2.63:1
Middleton 2.68:1
Barber 2.74:1
Ken Hodge 2.74:1 (328 career goals)
Perreault 2.76:1
Glen Murray 2.81:1 (337 career goals)
Maruk 2.84:1 (356 career goals)
Rene Robert 2.89:1 (284 career goals)
Gary Roberts 2.9:1
Steve Thomas 2.97:1 (421 career goals)
Gretzky 3.03:1
Secord 3.14:1
Mike Foligno 3.15:1 (355 career goals)
Reggie Leach 3.27:1 (381 career goals)
Holik 3.39:1 (326 career goals)
Peter McNab 3.42:1 (363 career goals)
Tonelli 3.46:1 (325 career goals)
Butch Goring 3.72:1 (375 career goals)
There is a better argument for Tonelli and Goring for the HHOF than Kerr IMO.

Sure scoring goals is probably the most important thing a player can do but Kerr was a 1 dimensional guy who didn't play long enough or do enough other things well to warrant any consideration in the HHOF.

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Old
09-21-2012, 03:56 PM
  #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Malefic74 View Post
It's more a function of the style of goalies at the time. Stand up goalies (the prevailing style of the 80s) were much more vulnerable to scrambles, rebounds and deflections. The butterfly style evolved in part to take a lot of those goals away. Size of pads has very little to do with it, moreso the skill of the gentlemen who wore them.
Sure it's the same shooting at 10% of the net compared to 40%, or whatever the actual "open" part is to the shooters.

In goaltending size actually matters, all other things being equal.

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09-21-2012, 04:14 PM
  #65
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I've never thought there is a whole heck of a lot of difference between Kerr, Neely and Rick Martin. Neely adds the much more physical dimension and in my mind gets a LOT of sympathy votes thrown his way too. I am never sure why Kerr doesn't get that same sympathy either. His career was shortened because of injuries too. I don't know, I wouldn't have put Neely in there. Not enough done in his career. Too many injuries and it is unfortunate and all but that's how you rate career value.

Also, to this argument on the start of the dead puck era, yeah it is no sooner than 1996-'97. It is most commonly thought around here to be 1996-'04. Scoring today is similar to then but I feel the game is still more open than the dead puck era. 1995-'96 showed signs of it popping up but if the Devils don't win the Cup in 1995 and Florida doesn't grab and tug and score center ice goals on its way to the final in 1996 then there wouldn't have been such a copycat syndrome in 1996-'97 with teams using the trap. I remember that season very vivdly as a time when there was great concern for the drop in goals. There wasn't that feeling in 1995-'96.

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Old
09-21-2012, 05:24 PM
  #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
Sure it's the same shooting at 10% of the net compared to 40%, or whatever the actual "open" part is to the shooters.

In goaltending size actually matters, all other things being equal.
regardless, their pads were the same size when other players shot at them. Kerr didn't have a special advantage thanks to the goalies' pads.

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