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And we are locked out again (No Progress ,, Talks collapse)

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10-17-2012, 07:18 PM
  #351
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PA isn't a joke. They were okay with the system that was in place. What were they supposed to do until they were locked out? The first offer from the Owners was a joke. This is better and I hope some serious dialog results from it.

Fehr needs to work within the framework of the deal presented for any shot of a full season.

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10-17-2012, 07:23 PM
  #352
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PA isn't a joke. They were okay with the system that was in place. What were they supposed to do until they were locked out? The first offer from the Owners was a joke. This is better and I hope some serious dialog results from it.

Fehr needs to work within the framework of the deal presented for any shot of a full season.
If I was living on a tropical island paying no rent I'd be happy too. The players had it made, of course they loved the old CBA. They could've agreed to begin negotiating before July. The first offer from the players was a joke and they haven't made one since.

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10-17-2012, 07:59 PM
  #353
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Originally Posted by MagicSlap View Post
If I was living on a tropical island paying no rent I'd be happy too. The players had it made, of course they loved the old CBA. They could've agreed to begin negotiating before July. The first offer from the players was a joke and they haven't made one since.
First offer was still a joke. Owners locked them out last time and got everything they wanted or so they thought. Now they're doing it again. They will probably lock them out again in 6 years.

I can sympathize with a millionaire player about as much as a billionaire owner. Just get a deal done and stop posturing. I may think differently with Fehr's response tomorrow. He has hinted at bad things.

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10-17-2012, 08:05 PM
  #354
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Fehr needs to work within the framework of the deal presented for any shot of a full season.
I don't blame Fehr for much of anything in this dispute. Of course he needs time. Hell, he needed another 2 years before he was finally elected while the players were sitting on their hands ignoring the issue knowing full well that the owners were preparing and cooking the books (Nashville). He's probably the fans' best chance at a long term and sustainable CBA.

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PA isn't a joke. They were okay with the system that was in place. What were they supposed to do until they were locked out? The first offer from the Owners was a joke. This is better and I hope some serious dialog results from it.
I hope progress takes place as well. I say they are a joke because of everything that took place (or didn't) since the last CBA was agreed upon.

They knew this was coming for years and did nothing. They were a mess for years prior to and through the lockout and did nothing until recently (Fehr's election). They knew they were antagonizing the owners by extending the CBA without any preliminary talks on a future agreement and they continued to do nothing.

Complacency, divergent interests, confusion, indifference, take your pick. All of them have been there for the last 25 years, any one of them makes the PA a joke in my opinion.

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10-17-2012, 08:50 PM
  #355
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Originally Posted by MagicSlap View Post
If I was living on a tropical island paying no rent I'd be happy too. The players had it made, of course they loved the old CBA. They could've agreed to begin negotiating before July. The first offer from the players was a joke and they haven't made one since.
You really have no idea.
(in brackets is % away from current offer)

The players first offer was 54% (+4%)
The players second offer was 52% (+2%)

The owners first offer was 43% (-7%)
The owners second offer was 47% (-3%)

So the players should take a 14% paycut, lose all contractual rights, and just sign?
Give it up, this lockout is on the owners, only Bettman sheeple think otherwise.

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10-17-2012, 08:53 PM
  #356
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LOL I love Hawk passing over the post that refutes every single one of his points.

How can the owners be greedier when they met the PA in the middle? 43% and 57% were the starting points. Also, many owners are losing money, how many players are?
Whats the point of beating a dead horse?

The owners are not meeting in the middle. If you actually read in depth, it is not a 50/50 split. So many media outlets are saying this, and have broken down the numbers.

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10-17-2012, 09:58 PM
  #357
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Yeah, this is closer to 43 than 50 and 50 isn't enough, needs to be 52 going down to 50. The league did great last contract, that's why they get it. But this is a joke if you read into it.

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10-17-2012, 11:39 PM
  #358
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The NHL has made reasonable offers, youre out of it if you think other wise.
And youre right, we shouldn't feel bad about Hossa making 30mil instead of 60..but its OK that the owner makes 100mil instead of 50mil.
**** the owners, I'm with the players all the way.
The owners aren't making money, some teams are losing money which is why there is the lockout. Plus yes the owners should make more money then the players, the owners invested money into the league, the owners take risk to lose money, no player in the history of the NHL ever lost money by playing hockey. Yes the owners are asking the players to take less money, because they make more money % wise then any other sport in the world while making half of the revenue.

But be with the players who make 10 times in 1 year what you'll make in your life but are telling you they don't care about you or the league they play for just give them their money, because they need a 3rd Porsche.

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You don't get it. Owners will get their money with the last PA proposal, but the top money makers dont want to share their money. The players dont get paid if they get hurt and their career is done. I'm not just talking Crosby, Im talking the 80% of players that only play for a few years.
They want a fair deal, they shouldnt have to take financial risk, they are players.

If your employer wanted to cut your paychq by 7% just to make sure he could keep his Mercedes Benz, how would you feel?
You really aren't getting this and considering the source it's not surprising, this isn't about the NHL owners keeping their millions, this is about the health of the league. Many team had a hard time making a profit because of player salaries.

This isn't give me part of your paycheck so I can get another Benz, this is give me part of your paycheck so the company you work for doesn't go bankrupt in the future.

That's why it's so disgusting what the players are doing, the NHL is basically saying, yes we will be taking some of your money but it's to save the league the players are saying, F your league give me my money.

Yes the owners make more money, most of what they make goes back into the league though, they get 50% of HRR and then turn around and spend 40% of that into players, stadium improvements, more workers, more concessions, the players 50% goes into their wallet and stays there.

You really need to understand business better before you go bashing the owner of a company for having a problem that his highly paid employees want more money then he makes.


Last edited by Sir Psycho T: 10-18-2012 at 12:01 AM.
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Old
10-17-2012, 11:47 PM
  #359
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And the players take all the risk playing one of the most violent sports.

The cost of living has gone up too.
This is one of the biggest joke posts every right?

What are you Patrick Ewing?

Yes we make a lot of money but we spend a lot of money too.

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10-18-2012, 12:17 AM
  #360
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Tazer really needs to keep his mouth shut. Some of the things he's been saying are making him look horrible.

Calling the newest deal a ploy and that they won't fall for anything, and that the NHL is trying to use the media to gain favor.
What has the NHLPA been doing this whole time.

http://www.cbssports.com/nhl/blog/ey...n-gary-bettman

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10-18-2012, 12:21 AM
  #361
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And costs have gone up on non player costs fuel , Hotel , Stadium workers , etc that NHL owners have to deal with (But players dont)

Not to mention player salaries have skyrocketed

Owners take all the risk financially
Well this is right out of the owners' manual. Jet fuel costs? Really? That's a tiny % (can't be more than 1% of costs), has been volatile but well off highs and in line with inflation over the contract. That's a straw-man for stupid fans that see the cost at the pump (the net with a huge spike would be less than a rockford shuffle). Hotel costs are down in the recession and there is no upper movement in low-skill stadium job wages.

Not to mention, with interest rates are at all-time lows, the stadium financing costs are are the lowest levels ever (If Rocky took on debt to to make the UC improvements - as he should have - his costs would be ~20% less than at the start of the CBA - this overwhelms the other BS about fuel, hotels and massages)

You're talking about basic inflation, which has been modest, and would also impact players the same as owners.



I see no evidence that non-player cost have gone up, but rather strongly suspect they have decreased, maybe nominally but for sure as a % of revenue.


Last edited by LarmerSavardSecord: 10-18-2012 at 12:44 AM. Reason: edit
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10-18-2012, 12:41 AM
  #362
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Originally Posted by Sir Psycho T View Post
Tazer really needs to keep his mouth shut. Some of the things he's been saying are making him look horrible.

Calling the newest deal a ploy and that they won't fall for anything, and that the NHL is trying to use the media to gain favor.
What has the NHLPA been doing this whole time.

http://www.cbssports.com/nhl/blog/ey...n-gary-bettman
The only difference is that some people are dumb enough to believe the owner and Bettman's ploy while everyone saw through Toews' and his comments.

Honestly, I can't believe some of the comments in this thread.

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10-18-2012, 12:42 AM
  #363
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Originally Posted by Sir Psycho T View Post
Tazer really needs to keep his mouth shut. Some of the things he's been saying are making him look horrible.

Calling the newest deal a ploy and that they won't fall for anything, and that the NHL is trying to use the media to gain favor.
What has the NHLPA been doing this whole time.

http://www.cbssports.com/nhl/blog/ey...n-gary-bettman
That is from 10 days ago, already been discussed on here.

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10-18-2012, 12:51 AM
  #364
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That is from 10 days ago, already been discussed on here.
That was not his most recent comments of the new proposal being a ploy and the NHL using the media to gain favor. The story was an example of Toews using the media to gain favor so to try to call out the owners for doing the same thing is pretty ridiculous.

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10-18-2012, 08:16 AM
  #365
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To try and put things into perspective, I have worked in the same industry since 1992. Since then my salary has not quite tripled. Compare that to the NHL: The average NHL salary today is 11 times what it was in 1992 and a high percentage of players are millionaires. If they have any common sense whatsoever, most of today’s players are set for life financially, and they want more. That is what I call greed. … the players need a reality check. Perhaps they need to heed the words of ex-players like Gretzky, Lafleur and Orr, and put the game ahead of their greed. I’m afraid if they yield to the ambitions of Donald Fehr, this NHL season will go the same route as it did in 2004…. And they will end up losing a lot more.

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10-18-2012, 08:29 AM
  #366
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Anyone care to offer a link to exactly how this "50/50" split is actually NOT a 50/50 split?

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10-18-2012, 08:37 AM
  #367
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From what it seems, people thought that it would NOT be an actual 50/50 because AHL players making greater than 105K would count.

That isn't true, though. The players salaries will count towards the cap, but not towards the actual dollar divide. They won't have any affect on escrow.

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10-18-2012, 08:45 AM
  #368
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In summary, the players are just being greedy here.

Everyone who already has a contract will get paid the exact same amount, nothing will change. In the future the cap will revert to where it was, THE YEAR BEFORE THIS ONE. Oh the horror!

Seriously, the offer is more than fair, iron out some of the things like years to UFA, contract length caps and boom it's fine.

Players crying foul are just being cry babies at this point. I'm not on either side, I'm on the side of wanting hockey and this is the best way to do that.

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10-18-2012, 08:51 AM
  #369
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I think the players are fine with the 50/50. I think it's the other issues that they have a problem with, and that'll be their counter.

But the money split is the biggest issue. When the NFL and NBA came to an agreement on the split, the other things work themselves out very quickly. I think we will see the same here.

EX:
League offered 5 year max contract - PA will counter with 9 - sides will agree to 7 - BOOM DONE

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10-18-2012, 08:51 AM
  #370
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Anyone care to offer a link to exactly how this "50/50" split is actually NOT a 50/50 split?
Well, right off the hop, you have guys like Olesz and Redden and the many others counting against the cap no matter what. This is a major difference from the last deal and is going to restrict future signings. Then you have long term deals counting whether the player retires or not, which while I understand LTIR could be utilized but who says they actually do that and is that really a viable solution? Because those salaries are coming back in the summer, further restricting new signings. Maybe they raise the summer cap, maybe not.

It was 57 / 43 players without the above mechanisms in place, so 50 /50 with these mechanisms is not relative to what was in place. That's why it isn't actually 50 / 50.

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10-18-2012, 08:53 AM
  #371
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That isn't true, though. The players salaries will count towards the cap, but not towards the actual dollar divide. They won't have any affect on escrow.
Even if the money came back in escrow, that's not the same as getting paid with your check. It's like a guy with a family claiming 0. Sure, he'll get the money back at tax time but that's not the same as having it when you need it. Who knows what kind of bills these guys have.

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10-18-2012, 09:03 AM
  #372
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Even if the money came back in escrow, that's not the same as getting paid with your check. It's like a guy with a family claiming 0. Sure, he'll get the money back at tax time but that's not the same as having it when you need it. Who knows what kind of bills these guys have.


They're pro athletes, they have more money they they'll ever need.

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10-18-2012, 09:04 AM
  #373
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Well, right off the hop, you have guys like Olesz and Redden and the many others counting against the cap no matter what. This is a major difference from the last deal and is going to restrict future signings. Then you have long term deals counting whether the player retires or not, which while I understand LTIR could be utilized but who says they actually do that and is that really a viable solution? Because those salaries are coming back in the summer, further restricting new signings. Maybe they raise the summer cap, maybe not.

It was 57 / 43 players without the above mechanisms in place, so 50 /50 with these mechanisms is not relative to what was in place. That's why it isn't actually 50 / 50.
That's all SYSTEM issues, though. It's still a 50/50 split. You can't say it's not 50/50 because of the system of doing so, because it's an entirely separate issue to be negotiated.

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10-18-2012, 09:04 AM
  #374
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This is one of the biggest joke posts every right?

What are you Patrick Ewing?

Yes we make a lot of money but we spend a lot of money too.
No more of a joke than saying Jet fuel costs are a big reason as to why the owners need more money. The owners are BILLIONAIRES!!!!!!!!!! They lose 5mil a year and it's ****ing pocket change. I don't expect you to know this though.

If they didn't want to take risks by owning an NHL team, then they should of never ****ing bought a team.

The only reason teams are losing money is because Bettman put teams in places where hockey wasn't going to be a success. So the players should pay for Bettmans retardation?

I'm done with this argument. The players are getting ****ed once again, every time their is a lockout they should just concede to the owners by the time 2025 hits, the players will be making 30%, but that's OK, because they never lose money. That's a joke.

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10-18-2012, 09:05 AM
  #375
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Their pro athletes, they have more money they they'll ever need.
Maybe Crosby, but your average guy is probably taking care of a lot of his family, college tuitions, housing, etc. Not saying this is what they should be doing but we've heard enough stories to know that players do share their money with their family.

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