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Old
10-19-2012, 08:31 AM
  #576
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Sir Psycho T is nailing it although I advise you to give it up, no matter how much reason and sense you use some people will never let up with the idea that this isn't a fair fight, both sides are equally bad and the players can do no wrong.

Also, yeah, we should feel REAL bad for Zach, estimates for how much money he's lose under the owner's proposal range between 200K and 2MM over the LIFETIME of the contract, which is AT MOST a 2.6% reduction. This leaves him with a paltry sum of $96MM to live with over the rest of his life, how will he get by?? Poor guy.

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10-19-2012, 09:03 AM
  #577
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Originally Posted by sketch22 View Post
That entire post was so very wrong that I don't know what to say except that if you honestly believe that ticket prices would go down if the players made less money then you are clearly delusional and its not even worth discussing this with you any more.
Ticket prices are unlikely to ever go down, but the point is that these outrageous player contracts that have increased exponentially in the last 20 years have forced the owners to drive those ticket prices up. I haven’t read all of what Sir Psycho T has had to say but from what I have read he’s pretty dam accurate in his assessments.

As I felt in 2004, I am at the end of my rope, and my interest is waning daily. If this isn’t solved soon, casual fans are going to be lost again and this time the recovery will take longer, and there will be casualties. The NHL is again shooting itself in the foot.

Fehr thinks he has hoodwinked the fan into believing he has called the owners bluff, but in reality he has exposed himself to be out of touch with the business side of hockey. The players have tried to portray the image that they only want to play hockey and nothing could be further from the truth with Fehr at the helm. Hopefullly after a short recess Fehr the PA will come back with something more meaningful then the PR exercise we witnessed yesterday.

GET ER DONE

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10-19-2012, 09:14 AM
  #578
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I think one thing that should be done is taking away the basement teams have to hit. That is silly to make teams have to spend an amount that guarantees they lose money. I know there is some revenue sharing for that but I don't agree with it. You are propping up teams that have been poorly managed.

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10-19-2012, 09:18 AM
  #579
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Originally Posted by swanny View Post
I think one thing that should be done is taking away the basement teams have to hit. That is silly to make teams have to spend an amount that guarantees they lose money. I know there is some revenue sharing for that but I don't agree with it. You are propping up teams that have been poorly managed.
There's a difference between propping up teams and not allowing a discrepancy of 50 million dollars in team salaries. It's about creating parity in a league that's much better because of it. As a big market team, us Hawk fans would benefit greatly from Nashville/NYI rolling with a 25 million dollar payroll. It just isn't realistic for them to be nothing but a feeder club and starting the year off knowing they're going nowhere.

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10-19-2012, 09:28 AM
  #580
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It would cycle up and down as their high round draft picks matured. So the propping up, then getting 1-5 picks doesn't make sense. It is like a talent/$ double dip.

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10-19-2012, 09:32 AM
  #581
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God damn the PA is so so dumb, NHL's proposal is actually BETTER for the majority of players. The more reading I do on the mechanisms of the two proposals it's just obvious the PA either A. doesn't understand them or B. is just plain stupid.

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10-19-2012, 09:57 AM
  #582
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I wish they'd just dump that cap and have a luxury tax. they say it's better for the fans to have parity - but i think that teams like the Hawks and Leafs should benefit from the fact they, you know, actually have people watching them.

it's the fan's money getting spent anyway...if a team's making more money then it should be able to spend away. if the yotes and cbj end up as farm teams for the league then

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10-19-2012, 10:04 AM
  #583
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Originally Posted by UsernameWasTaken View Post
I wish they'd just dump that cap and have a luxury tax. they say it's better for the fans to have parity - but i think that teams like the Hawks and Leafs should benefit from the fact they, you know, actually have people watching them.

it's the fan's money getting spent anyway...if a team's making more money then it should be able to spend away. if the yotes and cbj end up as farm teams for the league then
And it's easy to say that as a Hawk fan.

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10-19-2012, 10:09 AM
  #584
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Yes, but not in the way you are thinking. The NHL is broken. Anyone can see that the system in place is not working for the majority of teams, but nothing I have read or heard about any of the NHL's proposals makes me believe that the Owners are willing to do what is necessary to fix the situation. They would rather just cut costs and lessen the problem for a year or two until the cap gets out of hand again. The only way I see the league changing for the better is for the union to *win*. That way the Owners will collectively be forced to fix the leagues big problems to keep making money.
If the owners are "forced" to fix the problems, then they sell or just continue to lockout. I don't see why the owners would want to work within a framework that favors the players, we saw that already, and it was garbage for most of the league. The league has far better owners than they did 13 years ago overall. Bad owners do more to ruin the league than a bad CBA. The players will not have the leverage to push the owners like that, the revenue outside of gate receipts just isn't there in the NHL like the other major sports.

The players have not offered any solutions that have been any better or more sustainable for the health and growth of the league than anything the owners have done. I don't trust either side, but I trust the players much much less. Besides, Gary and the owners learned their lesson in 95' about taking too much of the PA's input.


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10-19-2012, 10:20 AM
  #585
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If the owners are "forced" to fix the problems, then they sell or just continue to lockout. I don't see why the owners would want to work within a framework that favors the players, we saw that already, and it was garbage for most of the league. The league has far better owners than they did 13 years ago overall. Bad owners do more to ruin the league than a bad CBA. The players will not have the leverage to push the owners like that, the revenue outside of gate receipts just isn't there in the NHL like the other major sports.

The players have not offered any solutions that have been any better or more sustainable for the health and growth of the league than anything the owners have done. I don't trust either side, but I trust the players much much less. Besides, Gary and the owners learned their lesson in 95' about taking too much of the PA's input.
Not only that, but the NHL's proposal is BETTER for the majority of NHL players than the PA's is.

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10-19-2012, 11:01 AM
  #586
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Not only that, but the NHL's proposal is BETTER for the majority of NHL players than the PA's is.
You might be right. I don't know enough or seen enough details from any of the offers to think any of the deals have been good honest attempts to broker a deal yet.

I really hope the media quits talking about %. It just distorts what's really being discussed and the bottom line for both sides.

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10-19-2012, 11:05 AM
  #587
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Originally Posted by UsernameWasTaken View Post
I wish they'd just dump that cap and have a luxury tax. they say it's better for the fans to have parity - but i think that teams like the Hawks and Leafs should benefit from the fact they, you know, actually have people watching them.

it's the fan's money getting spent anyway...if a team's making more money then it should be able to spend away. if the yotes and cbj end up as farm teams for the league then
I'm with disgruntled on that one. We'll have something like 10 good franchises, 10 in the dumpster and few that pop their head up every other year as competitive when they aren't scraping for revenue. I think it will kill a number of franchises, including a couple of Canadian ones since they won't be able to keep up with the PHI's, NYR's, Tor's, MTL's, etc.

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10-19-2012, 11:06 AM
  #588
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MagicSlap View Post
Not only that, but the NHL's proposal is BETTER for the majority of NHL players than the PA's is.
Why do you say that?

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10-19-2012, 11:22 AM
  #589
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Originally Posted by DisgruntledHawkFan View Post
Why do you say that?
Here's a summary post I made in another place...

Essentially, the NHL offer says we move to 50/50 now and to get there we are going to defer some of the revenue owed on your contract (12%) and spread it over the length of your contract. Take Malkin for example, he makes $8.7MM this year year, 12% would be deferred ($1.1MM). The next year is his last year, he makes $7.6 and gets the $1.1 back which equals $8.7. So the reduction in the current year is made whole on in future years. He then signs a new deal.

Now let's evaluate what would happen on the PA proposal...

The PA proposal relies on the opposite of the owner's, we want our money now and to move to 50/50 over time. They do this by saying every contract signed after this year will be far below the 50% cut to balance out the current deals (essentially throwing future UFAs and players coming off ELCs under the bus). So Malkin would play his two years and make the same he would under the owner's proposal (but just paid out differently over the next two years) but when he goes to UFA he will have to take a deal that is substantially BELOW what he would make under the owner's proposal (his cap hit would have to come in at around what it would under a 44% revenue split as opposed to a 50% one).

So Malkin is worse off under the PA's deal as is every upcoming UFA over the next three years. But wait, what percent of players are actually going to be UFAs in the next 3 years?

About 70%

70% of players are worse off under the PA deal compared to the owner's deal.

****. Donald. Fehr.

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10-19-2012, 11:26 AM
  #590
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MagicSlap View Post
Here's a summary post I made in another place...

Essentially, the NHL offer says we move to 50/50 now and to get there we are going to defer some of the revenue owed on your contract (12%) and spread it over the length of your contract. Take Malkin for example, he makes $8.7MM this year year, 12% would be deferred ($1.1MM). The next year is his last year, he makes $7.6 and gets the $1.1 back which equals $8.7. So the reduction in the current year is made whole on in future years. He then signs a new deal.

Now let's evaluate what would happen on the PA proposal...

The PA proposal relies on the opposite of the owner's, we want our money now and to move to 50/50 over time. They do this by saying every contract signed after this year will be far below the 50% cut to balance out the current deals (essentially throwing future UFAs and players coming off ELCs under the bus). So Malkin would play his two years and make the same he would under the owner's proposal (but just paid out differently over the next two years) but when he goes to UFA he will have to take a deal that is substantially BELOW what he would make under the owner's proposal (his cap hit would have to come in at around what it would under a 44% revenue split as opposed to a 50% one).

So Malkin is worse off under the PA's deal as is every upcoming UFA over the next three years. But wait, what percent of players are actually going to be UFAs in the next 3 years?

About 70%

70% of players are worse off under the PA deal compared to the owner's deal.

****. Donald. Fehr.
Someone doesn't understand the time value of money

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10-19-2012, 11:33 AM
  #591
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Originally Posted by Illinihockey View Post
Someone doesn't understand the time value of money
I just did ran the numbers, the decrease in value of the player's next deal when they hit UFA causes the NPV of the NHL's proposal to be significantly higher.

Sorry pal, also I work in finance so I definitely understand time value of money.

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10-19-2012, 11:45 AM
  #592
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Originally Posted by MagicSlap View Post
I just did ran the numbers, the decrease in value of the player's next deal when they hit UFA causes the NPV of the NHL's proposal to be significantly higher.

Sorry pal, also I work in finance so I definitely understand time value of money.
There's a lot in both offers that hasn't been released. I seriously doubt the players and owners don't have a team of accountants running the numbers in any proposal offered and deciding just how much money they're giving up/getting back.

The players aren't stupid, despite what you may think. If the offer really was "better" for 70% of the players, they'd negotiate off of that offer.

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10-19-2012, 11:46 AM
  #593
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I don't think the players are stupid, I just think they're being mislead.

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10-19-2012, 11:48 AM
  #594
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And you're out of your mind if you think the players agents aren't running these same numbers and telling them if union management is negotiating in bad faith. There's far too much money at stake for them not too be.

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10-19-2012, 11:50 AM
  #595
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Well I will say that these terms are more beneficial to the majority of the players you saw standing on the stage with Don Fehr yesterday if that means anything.

I trust my numbers based upon what is publicly known about the plan, they could be wrong but based upon everything that we know this is the case.

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10-19-2012, 12:01 PM
  #596
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Originally Posted by MagicSlap View Post
Well I will say that these terms are more beneficial to the majority of the players you saw standing on the stage with Don Fehr yesterday if that means anything.

I trust my numbers based upon what is publicly known about the plan, they could be wrong but based upon everything that we know this is the case.
Sure, but operating half in the dark is basing conclusions on total conjecture and is therefore useless.

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10-19-2012, 12:08 PM
  #597
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At the end of the day, they're truly not "that far" apart. They've agreed upon a 50/50 split being fair. It's just how long it'll take getting to that point that is in contention.

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10-19-2012, 12:29 PM
  #598
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What was very confusing was when Fehr mentioned the counter proposal was a simple one … then spewed off what was essentially a deal where all signed players continued under the old CBA. That won’t happen and was main the reason the owners rejected his proposals in record time. The 50 - 50 rhetoric sounded good however, as was the intention. But then later he changed gears and went on to list 5or 6 more provisions that he didn’t like. He seemed to me to be all over the map yesterday and left everyone with the impression that they were still miles apart and a deal wouldn’t be ironed out anytime soon. The players are being misguided indeed.

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10-19-2012, 12:32 PM
  #599
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And I think it foolish to believe that the players are a bunch of morons with the wool pulled over there eyes. There agents aren't thrilled with them making fifty cents on the dollar playing in Europe and you can bet they're running the numbers and letting their clients know just exactly what numbers are being offered by both sides.

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10-19-2012, 12:36 PM
  #600
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And I think it foolish to believe that the players are a bunch of morons with the wool pulled over there eyes. There agents aren't thrilled with them making fifty cents on the dollar playing in Europe and you can bet they're running the numbers and letting their clients know just exactly what numbers are being offered by both sides.
Right, you can believe that players and their agents know exactly what was in the NHLPA CBA. To think that Fehr would risk his career and reputation by duping the vast majority of the people he's fiducially obligated to represent is ridiculous.

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