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Old
09-16-2012, 02:31 PM
  #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by myrocketsgotcracked View Post
he may not be our best "overall" defenseman, but he is IMO our best offensive defenseman, and when he is on his game the most dominant Dman we had since Jovo, again IMO.
$6M/yr for edler is not an overpayment (this is based on the old cap, who knows what the new CBA will bring), just look at the contracts handed out to UFA Dman this summer, wideman at $5.5M!? how is edler not worth $.5M more?
Our best offensive defenseman is Kevin Bieksa. Edler gets most of his points on the PP where he's featured on the top unit. Give Bieksa those minutes and he would have a lot more points than he does now.

Holy hyperbole batman. Edler is being extremely overrated here.

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09-16-2012, 02:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by y2kcanucks View Post
That's a significant overpayment. You have to consider that Edler is not our best defenseman.
Hamhuis and Edler are our 2 best d-men, Hamhuis is better defensevy Edler is better offensevly. Edler was 7th in defenseman scoring. Players who score more gets payed more, thats why Edler willl get paid more than Hamhuis and Ehrhoff gets more than Willie Mitchell.

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09-16-2012, 02:40 PM
  #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by y2kcanucks View Post
Our best offensive defenseman is Kevin Bieksa. Edler gets most of his points on the PP where he's featured on the top unit. Give Bieksa those minutes and he would have a lot more points than he does now.

Holy hyperbole batman. Edler is being extremely overrated here.
No Bieksa is not our best offensive d-man, Edler has outscored him for 3 straight years. When Edler was moved to the Sedin unit we got a no 1 PP. When Bieksa was on he top unit (08-09) Canucks were 17th overall.

Bieksa is not as good as Edler offensevly. They are equal defensevly but Bieksa has Hamhuis as a partner, Edler has Salo.

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09-16-2012, 02:42 PM
  #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Askel View Post
No Bieksa is not our best offensive d-man, Edler has outscored him for 3 straight years. When Edler was moved to the Sedin unit we got a no 1 PP. When Bieksa was on he top unit (08-09) Canucks were 17th overall.

Bieksa is not as good as Edler offensevly. They are equal defensevly but Bieksa has Hamhuis as a partner, Edler has Salo.
Bieksa scored the 2nd most ES points in the NHL. He's better offensively than Edler.

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09-16-2012, 02:46 PM
  #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by y2kcanucks View Post
Bieksa scored the 2nd most ES points in the NHL. He's better offensively than Edler.
The PP is where defenseman prove their worth offensively. Edler is the better PP dman and thus is considered the better offensive defenseman.

Do you also have Bieksa rated as a better offensive defenseman than every other dman in the league that had fewer even strength points than he did? Or does the comparison stop at Edler?

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09-16-2012, 02:47 PM
  #31
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Originally Posted by y2kcanucks View Post
Bieksa was coming up on UFA. Garrison WAS a UFA. As was Hamhuis.

If Edler is demanding anywhere near $6M I would look to trade him.
bieksa took a bit of a discount, no doubt, but you can't expect edler to do the same just because KB did. and honestly i don't think KB is as good as edler, so no reason for edler to be getting the same deal as bieksa.
garrison had 1 good season and got $4.5M, edlers been good for a few years now, he is more proven, he will get more.
hamhuis also took a discount to play here, also he never put up the pts that edler had. like it or not, that will get him more money in the open market. also the cap was lower back then, $4.5M back when he signed is closer to $5M nowadays.

trading edler is likely not an option when the nucks are making a run for the cup. their window is closing and you can't subtract a key player from the line up now. unless you can do a edler ++ for weber (not going to happen), you just can't trade him.

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09-16-2012, 02:50 PM
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by y2kcanucks View Post
Bieksa scored the 2nd most ES points in the NHL. He's better offensively than Edler.
Its tough to say. Edler has more offensive talent. Better passer and has better vision from the point. But Bieksa just gets the job done. He's more consistent.

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09-16-2012, 02:53 PM
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by y2kcanucks View Post
Bieksa scored the 2nd most ES points in the NHL. He's better offensively than Edler.
you can't just say that bieksa is better offensively because he is 2nd in ES pts in the NHL (which IMO is a ranking he will not be able to duplicate). you have to consider everything else, like passing, running a PP, shot (both accuracy and velocity), anticipation and vision. all of which edler is better at. there is a reason why edler is on the #1 PP, and bieksa is not. no slight to KB but offensively he is not as good as edler.

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09-16-2012, 02:53 PM
  #34
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I'd be fine paying Edler $6M a year, that's what I feel he's worth.

Wouldn't say I'm panicking yet, but I'm a bit concerned.

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09-16-2012, 02:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by myrocketsgotcracked View Post
bieksa took a bit of a discount, no doubt, but you can't expect edler to do the same just because KB did. and honestly i don't think KB is as good as edler, so no reason for edler to be getting the same deal as bieksa.
garrison had 1 good season and got $4.5M, edlers been good for a few years now, he is more proven, he will get more.
hamhuis also took a discount to play here, also he never put up the pts that edler had. like it or not, that will get him more money in the open market. also the cap was lower back then, $4.5M back when he signed is closer to $5M nowadays.

trading edler is likely not an option when the nucks are making a run for the cup. their window is closing and you can't subtract a key player from the line up now. unless you can do a edler ++ for weber (not going to happen), you just can't trade him.
Edler is the better defenseman based on your opinion, but the stats say otherwise.

I'm willing to pay Edler more for his potential, but not millions more. $5.5M is the max I go without a NTC. With a NTC it's $5M.

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09-16-2012, 02:55 PM
  #36
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No one statistic "Evenstrenght point"s isnt stats its one statistic. PP stats say that Edler is better offensevly.
When Bieksa played 3:53 PPmin/ game in 08-09 the canuck PP sucked, When Edler played 3:46 PPmin/game the Canuck PP were top 5.

Edler gets the top PP minutes because hes better offensevly.

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09-16-2012, 03:02 PM
  #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Askel View Post
No one statistic "Evenstrenght point"s isnt stats its one statistic. PP stats say that Edler is better offensevly.
When Bieksa played 3:53 PPmin/ game in 08-09 the canuck PP sucked, When Edler played 3:46 PPmin/game the Canuck PP were top 5.

Edler gets the top PP minutes because hes better offensevly.
You do realize that PP stats involves a player getting an opportunity over another? Also, our PP in 08-09 was designed differently than it is today, you can't compare them as apples to apples

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09-16-2012, 03:06 PM
  #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by y2kcanucks View Post
Edler is the better defenseman based on your opinion, but the stats say otherwise.

I'm willing to pay Edler more for his potential, but not millions more. $5.5M is the max I go without a NTC. With a NTC it's $5M.
i don't base my opinion solely on stats, there are things that doesn't show up on the score sheets. we both watch the games and come to different conclusions, so be it.
i just think that it is unrealistic to expect edler to accept a contract under his market value just to fit into the team structure or the bieksa cap. if he does sign for $5M like you say, i'd be more than happy, but i'm not going to hold my breathe on that.

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09-16-2012, 03:08 PM
  #39
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Originally Posted by y2kcanucks View Post
You do realize that PP stats involves a player getting an opportunity over another? Also, our PP in 08-09 was designed differently than it is today, you can't compare them as apples to apples
why do you think edler is getting the opportunity over bieksa on the #1 PP? its definitely NOT because edler is inferior to bieksa offensively.

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09-16-2012, 03:12 PM
  #40
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Originally Posted by y2kcanucks View Post
Bieksa scored the 2nd most ES points in the NHL. He's better offensively than Edler.
And in his 4 previous seasons he never cracked the top 50 in ES points. Perhaps last year was an anomaly.

Not to mention the distinction you're making doesn't really exist. Over the past 3 seasons here's Bieksa and Edler's ES production:

Bieksa: .34 pts/g

Edler: .31 pts/g


So that's a difference of about 2 points over a season. Now compare their PP production:


Edler: 4.95 pts/60 min

Bieksa: 2.97 pts/60 min


Over the ice time of a 1st unit PP defenseman (about 275 minutes) that's almost a 10 point difference. And I don't want to hear about Edler leeching off the Sedins on the PP. In 09-10 Edler played on the 2nd unit and put up 5.25 pts/60 minutes while Bieksa played exclusively with the Sedins and only managed 2.88 pts/60 minutes. That 1st unit didn't become elite until Edler was put on it.

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09-16-2012, 03:15 PM
  #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by y2kcanucks View Post
Edler is the better defenseman based on your opinion, but the stats say otherwise.

I'm willing to pay Edler more for his potential, but not millions more. $5.5M is the max I go without a NTC. With a NTC it's $5M.
By stats do you mean more then just ES points?


By the way how old is Edler? What was Bieksa doing/putting up at Edler's age?

IMO (and I'm sure a lot would agree) Edler is the better of the 2 & only has room to improve being so young. I love Bieksa but if I had to chose between the 2 going forward it would be Edler.

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09-16-2012, 03:17 PM
  #42
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Originally Posted by opendoor View Post
And in his 4 previous seasons he never cracked the top 50 in ES points. Perhaps last year was an anomaly.

Not to mention the distinction you're making doesn't really exist. Over the past 3 seasons here's Bieksa and Edler's ES production:

Bieksa: .34 pts/g

Edler: .31 pts/g


So that's a difference of about 2 points over a season. Now compare their PP production:


Edler: 4.95 pts/60 min

Bieksa: 2.97 pts/60 min


Over the ice time of a 1st unit PP defenseman (about 275 minutes) that's almost a 10 point difference. And I don't want to hear about Edler leeching off the Sedins on the PP. In 09-10 Edler played on the 2nd unit and put up 5.25 pts/60 minutes while Bieksa played exclusively with the Sedins and only managed 2.88 pts/60 minutes. That 1st unit didn't become elite until Edler was put on it.
Don't forget Kes. He & Edler ran that 2nd unit in 09/10

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09-16-2012, 04:10 PM
  #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by y2kcanucks View Post
You do realize that PP stats involves a player getting an opportunity over another? Also, our PP in 08-09 was designed differently than it is today, you can't compare them as apples to apples
Why does Edler get that opportunity?

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09-16-2012, 04:27 PM
  #44
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Ugh.

Both Edler AND Hamhuis are better offensive players than Bieksa. Forget the stats (which for crying out loud, doesn't even favor Bieksa). Watch how much each of them get done in the offensive zone.

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09-16-2012, 04:38 PM
  #45
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Originally Posted by Shareefruck View Post
Ugh.

Both Edler AND Hamhuis are better offensive players than Bieksa. Forget the stats (which for crying out loud, doesn't even favor Bieksa). Watch how much each of them get done in the offensive zone.
HOw don't they favour Bieksa?

Just look at last season. Bieksa had 4 or 5 less points in 4 or 5 less games in tougher minutes against tougher opponents, while being on the ice for less goals against.


The laughable post in this thread is the one by opendoor suggesting Edler makes the first unit elite...haha...the PP became elite when Kesler was placed on the first unit.

He's got a hard slap shot, that's why he's on the top unit...you have to wonder if Garrison doesn't take those minutes, considering he seems to actually hit the net.

What I'd like to see opendoor show me is some stats to back up that claim, because IIRC it was Salo and Ehrhoff that anchored the #1 unit in our first 'elite PP' season.

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09-16-2012, 04:41 PM
  #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by myrocketsgotcracked View Post
i don't base my opinion solely on stats, there are things that doesn't show up on the score sheets. we both watch the games and come to different conclusions, so be it.
i just think that it is unrealistic to expect edler to accept a contract under his market value just to fit into the team structure or the bieksa cap. if he does sign for $5M like you say, i'd be more than happy, but i'm not going to hold my breathe on that.
And what does Edler do that doesn't show up on the scoresheet?

Quote:
Originally Posted by myrocketsgotcracked View Post
why do you think edler is getting the opportunity over bieksa on the #1 PP? its definitely NOT because edler is inferior to bieksa offensively.
Edler has a much better shot than Bieksa, which makes him better suited for the role he's used in on the top PP unit.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Imagine17 View Post
By stats do you mean more then just ES points?


By the way how old is Edler? What was Bieksa doing/putting up at Edler's age?

IMO (and I'm sure a lot would agree) Edler is the better of the 2 & only has room to improve being so young. I love Bieksa but if I had to chose between the 2 going forward it would be Edler.
What does Edler's age have to do with anything? I agree that he has the potential to develop into something better, and that's why I'm willing to pay him more than Bieksa. But to say we should be happy if he re-signs here for $6M is absolutely absurd!

Edler and Bieksa have had around the same amount of games played at the NHL level, so their developmental time is about the same at this level.

We aren't talking about having Edler or Bieksa. We have Bieksa and now we are trying to determine how much to re-sign Edler for. Giving him $6M is a significant overpayment. He simply isn't worth it. He isn't a better defenseman than Bieksa, either offensively or defensively. He has the potential which gets him a higher salary, but to blow all our other defensemen out of the water with a huge salary would be ridiculous.

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09-16-2012, 04:56 PM
  #47
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Originally Posted by y2kcanucks View Post
You do realize that PP stats involves a player getting an opportunity over another? Also, our PP in 08-09 was designed differently than it is today, you can't compare them as apples to apples
You are shaking your head wtf. Even strengt points isnt everything its one stat.

According to your logic Byron Bitz has a better shot than Kesler because hes got higher shooting percentage.

When Edler plays on the top unit it works better. Stats show it and you can see it with your eyes. Edler works better on that unit because has more offensive weapons than Bieksa.

Your hate for swedish players is getting out of hand.

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09-16-2012, 05:01 PM
  #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Askel View Post
You are shaking your head wtf. Even strengt points isnt everything its one stat.

According to your logic Byron Bitz has a better shot than Kesler because hes got higher shooting percentage.

When Edler plays on the top unit it works better. Stats show it and you can see it with your eyes. Edler works better on that unit because has more offensive weapons than Bieksa.

Your hate for swedish players is getting out of hand.
Perhaps if you understood advanced statistics you wouldn't come up with absurd statements like that.

When Kesler was put on the top PP unit, under Newell Brown, the PP took off. You can't directly attribute the PP's success to just Edler, especially when Ehrhoff played a huge role in its success when he was here too.

It isn't a hate for Swedish players at all. The fact you even mention that is completely strawman and tells me that you don't have any actual factual evidence that supports your side, and that you can't refute my points so you have to resort to sheer nonsense. Edler isn't our top defenseman, nor should he be paid $6M. Edler is a very good defenseman with the potential to be a top defenseman, but until he reaches that potential he shouldn't be compensated as one.

Offensively he isn't generating as much offense at even strength as some of our other players, like Kevin Bieksa, in sheltered minutes. Not to mention, defensively he hasn't been as good as Bieksa. So why should he be paid much more than Bieksa? How much is that potential really worth from a monitary standpoint? These are the arguments here and has nothing to do with nationality.

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09-16-2012, 05:26 PM
  #49
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Originally Posted by y2kcanucks View Post
Which means he's overvalued. Bieksa has been better offensively than Edler (based on ES production) and better defensively. With Edler you're paying for potential that he will progress to being a better defenseman, but as of right now he isn't.
Disagree.

Edler is better both offensively and defensively. No question. Hamhuis saves Bieksa on a regular basis.

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09-16-2012, 05:29 PM
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Originally Posted by 14s incisor View Post
Disagree.

Edler is better both offensively and defensively. No question. Hamhuis saves Bieksa on a regular basis.
You're wrong. No question. Check out www.behindthenet.ca and look at the numbers.

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