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So... No Extension for Edler..?

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Old
09-17-2012, 09:56 AM
  #76
craigcaulks*
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Package Edler with Luongo and get something real in return.

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09-17-2012, 10:02 AM
  #77
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Originally Posted by Shareefruck View Post
He plays a significantly bigger part than Bieksa does, IMO.
And I play the same role on the PP as Keith Ballard.

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09-17-2012, 10:05 AM
  #78
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Originally Posted by TedTheTerror View Post
Sorry, but how often did you see his 'huge' shot last year?
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Originally Posted by Reverend Mayhem View Post
He has a big shot, but it doesn't get to the net as much as some would like. Including myself.
I'm so tired of this argument. Edler, relative to the number of attempts (because he shoots a lot more often than any other D on our team), misses the net less than Bieksa and Hamhuis — both at PP and at ES. The only reason Edler appears to miss more is because he tries 300+ shots a year whereas Bieksa and Hamhuis hover at or below 200. Hamhuis, who many consider to be the most accurate, is actually the least accurate shooter on our team.

Edler finished Top 10 in shots on target, I don't understand what more people expect. He wasn't even Top 10 in PP ice time (24th, actually).

There are very few other defensemen in the league that like Edler are capable of both distributing the puck at a high-level and being the triggerman on a PP. Edler might not be as sleek as Doughty or Karlsson but his vision is one of the best and he regularly creates goals for this team.


Last edited by Tiranis: 09-17-2012 at 10:12 AM.
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09-17-2012, 10:48 AM
  #79
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Originally Posted by y2kcanucks View Post
While playing against the oppositions best players, something Edler doesn't do. Bieksa also puts up the second most even strength points in the league without having the luxury of playing with the Sedins as much as Edler has.
Luxury? Isn't that detrimental?

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09-17-2012, 10:49 AM
  #80
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Originally Posted by craigcaulks View Post
Package Edler with Luongo and get something real in return.
you'd still be selling low due to the impending UFA

maybe we can lock him up for $30M over 6 years ...that would be great
$5M avg says 'ok, you're above our internal cap, but we expect you to grow into it and prove it.'
Of course, he could always say 'meh, my 50pts sez gimme Enstrom $ to start or I'm going shopping...'

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09-17-2012, 10:49 AM
  #81
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Originally Posted by Hielo Grande View Post
if your really close friend is edler's good friend one would think you must have met edler, no?
I think everyone who lives in Yaletown has met Edler. He's around quite a bit.

I'd like Edler back for anything less than $6m long-term adjusted for cap changes.

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09-17-2012, 10:54 AM
  #82
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Well if he wants more than 6 million and won't budge we have to trade him. He shouldn't be making 2 million more than Hamhuis. I wonder if we could pry Carlson out of Washington. Carlson, Johansson and Neuvirth for Luongo and Edler.......
Kuznetsov or bust, I say.

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09-17-2012, 12:49 PM
  #83
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I'd give up to $6M for Eddie, he's better than Bieksa so deserves more money.

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09-17-2012, 01:23 PM
  #84
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Originally Posted by ninetynine View Post
I'd give up to $6M for Eddie, he's better than Bieksa so deserves more money.
Based on what though? All I see are people just making blanket statements despite the stats. I've even seen people try to dispute the stats and twist them in some ways.

Bieksa has improved a lot since being paired with Hamhuis, yes, but he also isn't dealing with a sliced calf either. Bieksa faces the toughest competition, with inferior forwards than Edler has. Bieksa is a beast at putting up even strength points which is very valuable in a league that has seen a downward trend in PP's. His defensive numbers are also better than Edler's despite Edler not facing the other teams top players.

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09-17-2012, 01:24 PM
  #85
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Must be saving money to make a big contract offer to Weber next off-season....


Remind me to send the Flyers more hate mail.

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09-17-2012, 02:09 PM
  #86
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Originally Posted by y2kcanucks View Post
While playing against the oppositions best players, something Edler doesn't do.
Sopel being paired up with Ohlund didn't prevent that pairing from having the "shutdown role" either. You have your best defensive defenseman on the ice in those situations - regardless of who your defensive partner is. Hamhuis not being a black hole offensively helps as well.

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Originally Posted by y2kcanucks View Post
Bbut he also isn't dealing with a sliced calf either.
So what was his excuse for playing the worst out of all the blueliners after his breakout year *BEFORE* his first freak injury?

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09-17-2012, 02:16 PM
  #87
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Originally Posted by Barney Gumble View Post
So what was his excuse for playing the worst out of all the blueliners after his breakout year *BEFORE* his first freak injury?
And before his second, when he had a horrible start.

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09-17-2012, 02:18 PM
  #88
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Edler is too inconsistent to be valued higher than Hammer or even Juice...but the market place is set and he's gonna get at least Enstrom money, if not a little more. We'll see if he gives us a hometown discount

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09-17-2012, 02:42 PM
  #89
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Edler had 1 bad series last year, normally he hits harder in the playoffs. Puts up good numbers and makes lots of good plays.

I wouldnt put too much weight into the rumors of not getting a deal done. Remember the rumors that the Canucks and Burrows were far apart, what was it, a day or 3 later he signed.

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09-17-2012, 03:33 PM
  #90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Barney Gumble View Post
Sopel being paired up with Ohlund didn't prevent that pairing from having the "shutdown role" either. You have your best defensive defenseman on the ice in those situations - regardless of who your defensive partner is. Hamhuis not being a black hole offensively helps as well.


So what was his excuse for playing the worst out of all the blueliners after his breakout year *BEFORE* his first freak injury?
Comparing Bieksa to Sopel is ludicrous. Bieksa is one of our best defensive defensemen. He and Hamhuis are both ahead of Edler, otherwise his relative corsi wouldn't be higher.

Bieksa has definitely developed leaps and bounds from 2007. I fail to see how that comparison is valid to who's better today? Bieksa is a better defenseman than Edler right now. I think Edler will develop even further, but I wouldn't be willing to pay more than $900K more than Bieksa for what amounts to mere potential.

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09-17-2012, 03:38 PM
  #91
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Originally Posted by Tiranis View Post
I'm so tired of this argument. Edler, relative to the number of attempts (because he shoots a lot more often than any other D on our team), misses the net less than Bieksa and Hamhuis both at PP and at ES. The only reason Edler appears to miss more is because he tries 300+ shots a year whereas Bieksa and Hamhuis hover at or below 200. Hamhuis, who many consider to be the most accurate, is actually the least accurate shooter on our team.

Edler finished Top 10 in shots on target, I don't understand what more people expect. He wasn't even Top 10 in PP ice time (24th, actually).

There are very few other defensemen in the league that like Edler are capable of both distributing the puck at a high-level and being the triggerman on a PP. Edler might not be as sleek as Doughty or Karlsson but his vision is one of the best and he regularly creates goals for this team.
Interestingly, I also think that argument completely misses the point. For me, if there's any weakness in Edler's offensive game, it's that he takes too long getting his shot off and takes a few too many low shots looking for rebounds.

In general that's a good philosophy, but his shot is so ridiculously good. It would be nice to see him get a bit faster on his release (or develop a better one-timer) and be willing to elevate his shot/go for the corners a bit more, especially when he recognizes that nobody is in position for an obvious rebound.

Botch today said the negotiations didn't go well. It will be interesting to see where this goes.

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09-17-2012, 04:26 PM
  #92
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Botch today said the negotiations didn't go well. It will be interesting to see where this goes.

I hope Gillis isn't trying to play hardball and keep Edler at Bieksa money. The idea that Edler should settle for the same contract Garrison and his 2 year track record got is something I find kind of ridiculous.

Gillis had no problem giving Edler a $3.25 million under a $56 million cap when he was coming off of a 20 point season, so I don't see why he'd be trying to undercut him now, especially when he seems content to go into next season with a bunch of wasted space ($4.2 million 6th/7th defenseman, $4+ million backup, etc.).

Getting homegrown guys to take low contracts is great up to a point, but I honestly wouldn't be surprised if some of them feel like their loyalty is being a little taken advantage of when they have to fight for every dollar while Gillis appears willing to open the vault for players outside the organization ($10 million offer for Sundin, potential $14 million offer for Weber, $4.2 million for Ballard, $4.25 million for Booth, etc.).

Hopefully he's just doing his job to get the best deal possible, but if there's a season long lockout during which players can't be signed, it'd be a real shame to see Edler hit UFA because Gillis tried to lowball him.

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09-17-2012, 04:27 PM
  #93
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Originally Posted by y2kcanucks View Post
Comparing Bieksa to Sopel is ludicrous.
Bieksa was atrocious defensively after Mitchell left the team until the arrival of Hamhuis.

Quote:
Originally Posted by y2kcanucks View Post
Bieksa has definitely developed leaps and bounds from 2007. I fail to see how that comparison is valid to who's better today? Bieksa is a better defenseman than Edler right now. I think Edler will develop even further, but I wouldn't be willing to pay more than $900K more than Bieksa for what amounts to mere potential.
Don't you think that the two of the three greatest defensive defensemen (Ohlund being the 3rd) to ever don the Canucks jersey had something to do with Bieksa's development? Who did Edler have to "mentor" him? A past his prime Salo/Ohlund? Ehrhoff?

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09-17-2012, 04:33 PM
  #94
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Originally Posted by y2kcanucks View Post
Comparing Bieksa to Sopel is ludicrous. Bieksa is one of our best defensive defensemen. He and Hamhuis are both ahead of Edler, otherwise his relative corsi wouldn't be higher.

Bieksa has definitely developed leaps and bounds from 2007. I fail to see how that comparison is valid to who's better today? Bieksa is a better defenseman than Edler right now. I think Edler will develop even further, but I wouldn't be willing to pay more than $900K more than Bieksa for what amounts to mere potential.
Hamhuis is by far our best defensive defencemen and best overall. Looking at Bieksa's corsi numbers etc isn't the most valid way of arguing since playing with Hamhuis skews the numbers in his favour.

Bieksa has improved alot recently, mainly because he hasn't tried to push the pace. Instead he's letting the play come to him and picking his spots alot better. Having said that it's hard to say he is more valuable than Edler. Bieksa never looks the same when he isn't paired with Hamhuis.

Edler doesn't have the luxury of playing with a Hamhuis, and with the loss of Ehrhoff he started to play more offensively.

Edler does alot of things that no one else on our defence can do. He has the best vision in offensive situations, he has the heaviest shot and when he's on no one on our defence can hit like him. Who knows if he can put it all together, but if he does he will easily be our best dman. Personally, I'd expect somewhere between 5- 5.5 million long term for Edler.

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09-17-2012, 04:34 PM
  #95
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Barney Gumble View Post
Bieksa was atrocious defensively after Mitchell left the team until the arrival of Hamhuis.


Don't you think that the two of the three greatest defensive defensemen (Ohlund being the 3rd) to ever don the Canucks jersey had something to do with Bieksa's development? Who did Edler have to "mentor" him? A past his prime Salo/Ohlund? Ehrhoff?
Outside of Willie Mitchell, and Bieksa finding chemistry with Hamhuis, I fail to see what point you're trying to make.

Bieksa has produced better than Edler defensively, and offensively at even strength, with inferior forwards while facing superior competition. That is all.

EDIT: I'm not saying Edler shouldn't become our highest paid defenseman. I don't think he deserves to be, in a vacuum but I do recognize a value placed on potential. Overpaying for potential is how contracts become bad contracts and franchise anchors. That's why I'm willing to recognize Edler's potential to a maximum contract of $5.5M without NTC, or $5M with NTC.

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09-17-2012, 04:48 PM
  #96
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lundface View Post
Hamhuis is by far our best defensive defencemen and best overall. Looking at Bieksa's corsi numbers etc isn't the most valid way of arguing since playing with Hamhuis skews the numbers in his favour.

Bieksa has improved alot recently, mainly because he hasn't tried to push the pace. Instead he's letting the play come to him and picking his spots alot better. Having said that it's hard to say he is more valuable than Edler. Bieksa never looks the same when he isn't paired with Hamhuis.

Edler doesn't have the luxury of playing with a Hamhuis, and with the loss of Ehrhoff he started to play more offensively.

Edler does alot of things that no one else on our defence can do. He has the best vision in offensive situations, he has the heaviest shot and when he's on no one on our defence can hit like him. Who knows if he can put it all together, but if he does he will easily be our best dman. Personally, I'd expect somewhere between 5- 5.5 million long term for Edler.
That's why looking at Bieka's Relative Corsi numbers are much more useful than just plain Corsi (and his relative corsi is tops on the Canucks at even strength).

Edler has focused more on offense? Well his even strength points has lagged behind Bieksa too...

I think we agree on the same price range for Edler though, so no need to argue the details too much I guess.

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09-17-2012, 05:34 PM
  #97
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I hope Gillis isn't trying to play hardball and keep Edler at Bieksa money. The idea that Edler should settle for the same contract Garrison and his 2 year track record got is something I find kind of ridiculous.
Edler is coming off a worse season than Hamhuis, Bieksa or Garrison had before getting their deals. Paying him more money than any of those guys would be ridiculous.

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09-17-2012, 06:55 PM
  #98
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Originally Posted by opendoor View Post
I hope Gillis isn't trying to play hardball and keep Edler at Bieksa money. The idea that Edler should settle for the same contract Garrison and his 2 year track record got is something I find kind of ridiculous.

Gillis had no problem giving Edler a $3.25 million under a $56 million cap when he was coming off of a 20 point season, so I don't see why he'd be trying to undercut him now, especially when he seems content to go into next season with a bunch of wasted space ($4.2 million 6th/7th defenseman, $4+ million backup, etc.).

Getting homegrown guys to take low contracts is great up to a point, but I honestly wouldn't be surprised if some of them feel like their loyalty is being a little taken advantage of when they have to fight for every dollar while Gillis appears willing to open the vault for players outside the organization ($10 million offer for Sundin, potential $14 million offer for Weber, $4.2 million for Ballard, $4.25 million for Booth, etc.).

Hopefully he's just doing his job to get the best deal possible, but if there's a season long lockout during which players can't be signed, it'd be a real shame to see Edler hit UFA because Gillis tried to lowball him.
The other day, Botch suggested that Edler and his agent are looking for Suter type money, at least in terms of cap hit. The numbers he threw out were between 6.5 and 7.5. I imagine that's the hold-up.

Based on the premium price for offense from the back-end and Edler's potential, I think it's fair to pay him more than the rest of the guys on the team, but I don't know how much more is reasonable.

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09-17-2012, 07:06 PM
  #99
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Originally Posted by Scurr View Post
Edler is coming off a worse season than Hamhuis, Bieksa or Garrison had before getting their deals. Paying him more money than any of those guys would be ridiculous.
Paying Edler more than $4.6 would be ridiculous? OK... If Gillis thinks like you he should've traded Edler because he's not getting him for less.

Does the fact that Edler more than doubled Hamhuis or Bieksa's point totals in those seasons mean nothing? What exactly did Hamhuis do in 09-10 that would put him above Edler?

I guess we'll see. Hamhuis and Garrison were brought in off the open market for $4.5 and $4.6 million respectively. If you're right, Edler won't garner any more than that on his next contract even if he opts to test free agency.

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09-17-2012, 07:23 PM
  #100
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Originally Posted by Proto View Post
The other day, Botch suggested that Edler and his agent are looking for Suter type money, at least in terms of cap hit. The numbers he threw out were between 6.5 and 7.5. I imagine that's the hold-up.

Based on the premium price for offense from the back-end and Edler's potential, I think it's fair to pay him more than the rest of the guys on the team, but I don't know how much more is reasonable.
Well he's not going to get that, but I can see where he's coming from. Edler's probably hoping to end up in the $5.5 million range so he's starting high knowing Gillis was going to offer him $4-4.5 million. As long as Gillis doesn't draw a hard line at $4.6 I'm sure something reasonable will get done.

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