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So... No Extension for Edler..?

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Old
09-19-2012, 01:25 PM
  #176
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Originally Posted by Scurr View Post
He still has a better corsi than Edler... while playing tougher minutes... with worse teammates.
Regardless of "CORSI" scores (Never heard of anyway) Bieksa brings intangibles to the team that can not be measured by statistical comparison: He's tougher, plays with more of an edge, is a lot meaner, and most important... HE'S 10 TIMES SMARTER!!!!

Edler, on the other hand, is bigger, skates better, shoots harder, and most important is 26. Which makes him the correct age for the next core group.

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09-19-2012, 01:58 PM
  #177
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Originally Posted by Barney Gumble View Post
Mitchell's last season as a Canuck (before it was shortened by Malkin's cheapshot) was the 2009-10 season. Not that long ago.
I was talking about who he played with during that injury shortened season, Tiranis dug it up. I was fooled by their vastly different zone starts.

I'm not sure how this always turns into Bieksa vs Edler. Compare Edler to whoever you like, he isn't driving the play the way a 5.5m+ defensemen should be.

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09-19-2012, 02:06 PM
  #178
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When the Canucks "don't have a No. 1 defenseman", everyone points to Edler.

When it comes to paying Edler, he isn't a No. 1 defenseman.

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09-19-2012, 02:16 PM
  #179
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Edler is pretty valuable, but I don't think it's out if the realm of possibility to expect him to take a discount. Everybody else on the team has, why shouldn't he?

The players all took discounts to keep the team competive, if he's not willing to do the same then I'd drop him like third period French.

He may very well be worth more but it's unlikely that he'll be in a team with a perennial contender like Vancouver. I would say that Vancouver has the best chance of being the next team to win the cup, maybe a few...so to me it would be worth the discount to be a part of that.

And when he becomes a free agent, the cap will be smaller abd the owners alot more tight fisted...no way he gets 6-6.5.

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09-19-2012, 02:16 PM
  #180
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Originally Posted by Scurr View Post
I'm not sure how this always turns into Bieksa vs Edler.
When Bieksa cap hit turns into the supposed max any defenseman can get on the team - it inevitably comes to that.

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09-19-2012, 02:21 PM
  #181
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Originally Posted by Barney Gumble View Post
When Bieksa cap hit turns into the supposed max any defenseman can get on the team - it inevitably comes to that.
Who said Edler won't or shouldn't get more than Bieksa? The point I've been making is that Edler right now is not better than Bieksa. What value do you place on potential? $1M? $500k? $3M?

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09-19-2012, 02:31 PM
  #182
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Originally Posted by y2kcanucks View Post
Who said Edler won't or shouldn't get more than Bieksa?
I certainly never quoted you directly or indirectly so I'm not sure where you get that impression.

The person I was actually replying to did & supported that position with sound reasoning (I just happen to think that you can't let a certain players walk over 500K - I am of course not suggesting that you overpay *every* player on the roster by 500K).

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09-19-2012, 02:40 PM
  #183
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Barney Gumble View Post
I certainly never quoted you directly or indirectly so I'm not sure where you get that impression.

The person I was actually replying to did & supported that position with sound reasoning (I just happen to think that you can't let a certain players walk over 500K - I am of course not suggesting that you overpay *every* player on the roster by 500K).
My bad, didn't mean to imply that you were referring to me, but still I don't think I've seen anyone suggest that Edler should be making less than Bieksa. I think the arguments have been around Bieksa being a better defenseman than Edler and how at $6M he would be overpaid. But if I missed something then that's my bad too, because I certainly wouldn't think it's realistic to pay Edler $4-4.5M either unless it's a 1 year extension and that's just not going to happen.

I see your point, and in the grand scheme of things $500k may not make much of a difference, but overpaying someone and having them fail could be crippling. Edler probably has very high trade value, so if he isn't willing to sign a sensible contract in the $5-5.5M range then we should look to move him.

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09-19-2012, 02:46 PM
  #184
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Originally Posted by y2kcanucks View Post
Who said Edler won't or shouldn't get more than Bieksa?
I did, though I'm more comfortable calling it the Hamhuis cap, because he's our best defensemen and Bieksa was surely "capped" by his contract.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Barney Gumble View Post
The person I was actually replying to did & supported that position with sound reasoning (I just happen to think that you can't let a certain players walk over 500K - I am of course not suggesting that you overpay *every* player on the roster by 500K).
I think this is where I may be losing some people. Gillis isn't letting him walk, he's making him play for that 500k or 1m per he's seeking. I imagine he will get to the trade deadline to prove he's worth that or sign for what the other guys did. I don't know that Gillis will risk letting him walk like Ehrhoff did. Tough call.

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09-19-2012, 03:26 PM
  #185
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Why do people keep using 'Edler plays weaker opposition' as their argument? Edler plays the most with the Sedins due to offensive ability. As a result, Sedins play against weaker opposition as well, wheras Kesler's line plays against the 'tougher opponents'.

By that logic, does that mean Sedins are not as good as Kesler? I think anyone can agree the Sedins are the top forwards on this team and Edler is also the top defenceman on that team.

Defensively, Edler, Bieksa and Hamhuis are not far apart as suggested earlier. Bieksa has missed just as many assignments. But Edler's offensive ability is what makes him a better bet to become a legit #1 on this team.

Losing Edler to UFA will make this team weaker. We're still hoping Garrison can replace Ehrhoff. Who will replace Edler?

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09-19-2012, 03:42 PM
  #186
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Originally Posted by Elliot20 View Post
By that logic, does that mean Sedins are not as good as Kesler? I think anyone can agree the Sedins are the top forwards on this team and Edler is also the top defenceman on that team.
The difference between the twins and Edler is that the twins turn those zone starts into a great corsi and +/- rating while Edler does not.

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09-19-2012, 03:50 PM
  #187
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scurr View Post
The difference between the twins and Edler is that the twins turn those zone starts into a great corsi and +/- rating while Edler does not.
Not only that, but if we are turning Edler into a one-dimensional defenseman then I have a bit of a problem with it. I expect Edler to provide top all-around play if he is to be considered an elite defenseman in the NHL. If we aren't getting that, then we need to take that into consideration too (and his value takes a bit of a hit). He's certainly capable of being a great 2-way defenseman, and I think he is currently in that role which makes a Sedin comparison moot.

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09-19-2012, 04:18 PM
  #188
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Originally Posted by Scurr View Post
The difference between the twins and Edler is that the twins turn those zone starts into a great corsi and +/- rating while Edler does not.
You're drawing a distinction between Bieksa and Edler that isn't really there in the same way it is between the Sedins and the rest of the team. You're talking like Edler's starts in the offensive zone 80% of the time or something. He had 57.8% compared to Bieksa's 49.2%. Even over an entire season, that distinction doesn't really add up to much if you look at the raw numbers. We're talking about a little over 1 extra offensive zone start per game for Edler compared to Bieksa.

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09-19-2012, 04:23 PM
  #189
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Originally Posted by y2kcanucks View Post
Not only that, but if we are turning Edler into a one-dimensional defenseman then I have a bit of a problem with it. I expect Edler to provide top all-around play if he is to be considered an elite defenseman in the NHL. If we aren't getting that, then we need to take that into consideration too (and his value takes a bit of a hit). He's certainly capable of being a great 2-way defenseman, and I think he is currently in that role which makes a Sedin comparison moot.
That "one-deminsional defenseman" got a virtually identical number of defensive and neutral zone starts as Bieksa:

Defensive zone starts:

Edler: 401

Bieksa: 423


Neutral zone starts:

Edler: 509

Bieksa: 486


I'm not sure how an extra offensive zone start a game is what separates a one-dimensional defenseman from an elite shut down defensemen, especially given that their Corsi Rel QOC numbers were quite similar (.797 for Bieksa compared to .597 for Edler).

This whole narrative of Edler getting sheltered minutes has really taken on a life of its own.

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09-19-2012, 04:50 PM
  #190
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What was the cap at when Bieksa signed his deal? Obviously we don't know yet what the cap will be when/if Edler signs, but any 'Bieksa cap' should be referred to as a percentage of the salary cap when he signed imo.

I'd go over that for Edler myself because I think he's the better player right now, not just potentially, I base that solely on watching the games though. Apparently hockey is the new baseball and I should spend all the rest of my free time studying statistics nowdays so I can really tell what's happening.

For those of you posting entirely statistic based opinions, maybe you could also tell me what percentage of Bieksa's minutes were played with Hamhuis? How about Edler? Watching the games has led me to be believe Hamhuis is a terrific defensive d-man, I have no clue if the stats (advanced or otherwise) prove that. Doesn't Hamhuis make the same as Bieksa? maybe it should be renamed the 'Hamhuis cap' since he's usually the best d-man on the ice when he's out there.

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09-19-2012, 04:52 PM
  #191
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Originally Posted by opendoor View Post
You're drawing a distinction between Bieksa and Edler that isn't really there in the same way it is between the Sedins and the rest of the team. You're talking like Edler's starts in the offensive zone 80% of the time or something. He had 57.8% compared to Bieksa's 49.2%. Even over an entire season, that distinction doesn't really add up to much if you look at the raw numbers. We're talking about a little over 1 extra offensive zone start per game for Edler compared to Bieksa.
Edler was on the ice for 139 more offensive zone faceoffs than Bieksa http://www.behindthenet.ca/nhl_stati...1+62+64+65+66# IMO that is significant. And just for comparison, Edler was on the ice for 32 less O-zone starts than the Sedins. He obviously starts in his own end with the added ice time he gets over them, but an even rating and 6 corsi from a guy that plays all those minutes with the twins in the offensive zone is not good at all.

And like I said earlier, compare him to defensemen around the league with similar zone starts and Edler comes out very mediocre http://www.behindthenet.ca/nhl_stati...61+62+64+65+66


Last edited by Scurr: 09-19-2012 at 05:12 PM.
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09-19-2012, 04:58 PM
  #192
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With regards to the Bieksa vs Edler, Bieksa is older and has the perfect complimentary partner who is a top 3 defenceman in his own right; where as Edler has seen a mismash of defencemen none of which were legit top 4 guys(except Salo for the start of last year), and has been played on his offside. When he has had a top 4 right side partner(Salo before the Marchand hit) he is fine, when he had Ehrhoff on his right side he was fine.

If Bieksa is as good as you say, he should be the perfect fit beside Edler and Hamhuis could solidify another pairing. But he is not, Bieksa and anyone besides Hamhuis is disaster waiting to happen in the defensive end and nothing special in the offensive zone. Where as Edler and anyone is at least respectable in the offensive zone. Edler sends our players on breakaways, Bieksa sends our forwards chasing after his weak shots.

I love having Bieksa on our team, he brings much needed snarl and is a fairly mobile dman, but to say he is better than Edler, the best offensive dman we have currently by far is absurd. At worst case for Edler they are similiar, when Edler is on he far and away the better player.

On the contract note though, there is no harm in waiting on Edler to be signed, if he proves he can put up another 40+ point season and continue to improve in the defensive zone he will be worth 6mill/year easy. Remember Defencemen don't hit their stride, especially defensively until their late 20's, Edler is just 26 and has a couple years before you write him off as a bigger Denis Wideman/Matt Carle(both of which have been paid top Dollar for with just as many concerns defensively as Edler and no where near the size advantage that Edler has working in his favor)

+On the whole argument Bieksa doesn't play with the Sedins, but Edler does; who would you want in the defensive zone as your center when your the defencemen? Sedin or Kesler, Malhotra, or Lapierre? Edler spends alot of his ice time with our weakest defensive center.


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09-19-2012, 05:11 PM
  #193
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Originally Posted by Scurr View Post
Edler was on the ice for 139 more offensive zone faceoffs than Bieksa http://www.behindthenet.ca/nhl_stati...1+62+64+65+66# IMO that is significant.

And like I said earlier, compare him to defensemen around the league with similar zone starts and Edler comes out very mediocre http://www.behindthenet.ca/nhl_stati...61+62+64+65+66
They still had similar number of defensive and neutral zone starts and their QoC wasn't as far apart as it's been made out to be. Considering who they each played with (Hamhuis vs Salo), there's not nearly as much of a difference as you and y2k would like everyone to believe. Just look at Salo's numbers without Edler, as well his overall numbers to understand how much of an impact he had last season.


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09-19-2012, 05:18 PM
  #194
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Originally Posted by Tiranis View Post
They still had similar number of defensive and neutral zone starts and their QoC wasn't as far apart as it's been made out to be. Considering who they each played with (Hamhuis vs Salo), there's not nearly as much of a difference as you and y2k would like everyone to believe.
It's not any one stat, it's qualcomp+zonestarts+qualT+corsi on that tell the story. Like you said, the defensive and neutral zone draws were similar, how would their stats look if Bieksa had those 139 more zone starts rather than Edler?

I don't know how anyone could argue that Hamhuis > the twins as teammates when it comes to possession stats.


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09-19-2012, 05:34 PM
  #195
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Originally Posted by Alflives View Post
Regardless of "CORSI" scores (Never heard of anyway) Bieksa brings intangibles to the team that can not be measured by statistical comparison: He's tougher, plays with more of an edge, is a lot meaner, and most important... HE'S 10 TIMES SMARTER!!!!

Edler, on the other hand, is bigger, skates better, shoots harder, and most important is 26. Which makes him the correct age for the next core group.
I literally laughed aloud when I read this. I've never seen/heard anybody claim Bieksa to be a smart defender. Most of his mistakes are do to his intelligence—poor pass choices and ill placed/timed clearings.

The smartest thing he's ever done was sign that $4.6 million contract, realizing that playing with Hamhuis is his meal ticket.

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09-19-2012, 05:39 PM
  #196
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Originally Posted by Scurr View Post
It's not any one stat, it's qualcomp+zonestarts+qualT+corsi on that tell the story. Like you said, the defensive and neutral zone draws were similar, how would their stats look if Bieksa had those 139 more zone starts rather than Edler?

I don't know how anyone could argue that Hamhuis > the twins as teammates when it comes to possession stats.
Because Edler only spends 38% amount of time with the twins. While Bieksa spends 70.5% of his time with Bieksa. Your defensive partner is far more important as a defenseman than the forwards that are out there, not just in terms of the amount of time you spend with them but also because they're the player you most often depend on and co-operate with while defending/moving play up ice. More importantly, it's not as if Bieksa is out there with poor posession players that he has to compensate for. He spends 30% of his ice-time out there with Henrik and 31% with Kesler.

http://www.behindthenet.ca/nhl_time_...13+14+29+31+33

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09-19-2012, 05:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by opendoor View Post
That "one-deminsional defenseman" got a virtually identical number of defensive and neutral zone starts as Bieksa:

Defensive zone starts:

Edler: 401

Bieksa: 423


Neutral zone starts:

Edler: 509

Bieksa: 486


I'm not sure how an extra offensive zone start a game is what separates a one-dimensional defenseman from an elite shut down defensemen, especially given that their Corsi Rel QOC numbers were quite similar (.797 for Bieksa compared to .597 for Edler).

This whole narrative of Edler getting sheltered minutes has really taken on a life of its own.
Context.

My post was based on someone comparing Edler to the Sedins, and I was essentially trying to get the point across that Edler needs to be more responsible defensively than the Sedins.

Edler has been getting sheltered minutes though, especially when you consider his qualComp.

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09-19-2012, 05:43 PM
  #198
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Originally Posted by Scurr View Post
Edler was on the ice for 139 more offensive zone faceoffs than Bieksa http://www.behindthenet.ca/nhl_stati...1+62+64+65+66# IMO that is significant. And just for comparison, Edler was on the ice for 32 less O-zone starts than the Sedins.

And like I said earlier, compare him to defensemen around the league with similar zone starts and Edler comes out very mediocre http://www.behindthenet.ca/nhl_stati...61+62+64+65+66
OK, so 1.69 more per game. What's that actually worth? Assuming all else is equal (which it essentially is based on the other numbers), is that really the difference between a shut down defenseman and a guy getting soft sheltered minutes? And are those extra offensive zone starts enough to overcome what I think is a much bigger issue of not having a good partner to play with?

Also, comparing him to the Sedins is kind of pointless given that he played about 20% more ES time than they did.

Zone starts are being given a disproportionate level of weight. They make up a pretty small part of the actual game given that most shift changes are on the fly. Obviously they're useful in spotting things like the Sedins' or Malhotra's usage, but drawing a distinction between guys within 10% of each other isn't all that valuable IMO. There are much bigger factors in terms of quality of minutes than zone starts.

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Originally Posted by Scurr View Post
I don't know how anyone could argue that Hamhuis > the twins as teammates when it comes to possession stats.
Again, you're creating a huge distinction where there isn't really that much of one. Edler spent 34.5% of his 5 on 5 time with Daniel (going with Daniel helps eliminate the period when it was just Henrik) while Bieksa spent 26.7% of his. It's not like Edler was stapled to the Sedins while Bieksa never played with them. We're talking about a 1:20 difference per game in ice time with the Sedins.

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09-19-2012, 05:45 PM
  #199
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Originally Posted by Tiranis View Post
Because Edler only spends 38% amount of time with the twins. While Bieksa spends 70.5% of his time with Bieksa. Your defensive partner is far more important as a defenseman than the forwards that are out there, not just in terms of the amount of time you spend with them but also because they're the player you most often depend on and co-operate with while defending/moving play up ice. More importantly, it's not as if Bieksa is out there with poor posession players that he has to compensate for. He spends 30% of his ice-time out there with Henrik and 31% with Kesler.

http://www.behindthenet.ca/nhl_time_...13+14+29+31+33
What explain's Edler's corsi on the season before then?

And why was Bieksa's corsi on > Edler's even without Hamhuis?

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09-19-2012, 05:55 PM
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Originally Posted by opendoor View Post
is that really the difference between a shut down defenseman and a guy getting soft sheltered minutes?
I didn't say soft or sheltered, I said easier, and the stats back that up. Marginalize them all you want, Edler is an average corsi player compared to Bieksa or any other good possession player in the league. That isn't limited to this season, it's consistent throughout his career.


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