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So... No Extension for Edler..?

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Old
09-19-2012, 05:57 PM
  #201
Tiranis
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Originally Posted by Scurr View Post
What explain's Edler's corsi on the season before then?

And why was Bieksa's corsi on > Edler's even without Hamhuis?
Ignoring the ridiculous margin of error, Bieksa's Corsi with Edler was higher than Bieksa's corsi without Edler (including being higher than his Corsi with Hamhuis). While Edler's corsi was lower without Bieksa (more so than Bieksa's) that's pretty easily explained by him spending most of his time with Salo. The fact is that between the 4 of these defensemen, Salo is the only one that stands out in the negative light. Bieksa was extremely lucky this past year in that he got to play over 70% of his time at ES with Hamhuis and almost all of the rest with Edler.

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Originally Posted by Scurr View Post
I didn't say soft or sheltered, I said easier, and the stats back that up. Marginalize them all you want, Edler is a poor corsi player compared to Bieksa or any other good possession player in the league. That isn't limited to this season, it's consistent throughout his career.
No matter how much you try to spin it, you will never be able to prove that he's a poor Corsi player. He just isn't. He might not be at the level of the Hamhuis - Bieksa pairing, but that doesn't make him poor (unless your world-view is very black and white).

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09-19-2012, 06:03 PM
  #202
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Originally Posted by Tiranis View Post
No matter how much you try to spin it, you will never be able to prove that he's a poor Corsi player. He just isn't. He might not be at the level of the Hamhuis - Bieksa pairing, but that doesn't make him poor (unless your world-view is very black and white).
You're right here, poor was the wrong choice of word. Mediocre is better. I don't see why we should be throwing 5.5m+ at a mediocre corsi player.

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09-19-2012, 06:19 PM
  #203
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Originally Posted by Scurr View Post
You're right here, poor was the wrong choice of word. Mediocre is better. I don't see why we should be throwing 5.5m+ at a mediocre corsi player.
Because corsi isn't as important as other stats, like points.

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09-19-2012, 06:20 PM
  #204
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Why are we comparing Edler to Bieksa or Hamhuis?

Our most recent D signing was Garrison. If you think Edler is significantly better, he should be getting significantly more.

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09-19-2012, 07:09 PM
  #205
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Originally Posted by 14s incisor View Post
Because corsi isn't as important as other stats, like points.
What is corsi?

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09-19-2012, 07:28 PM
  #206
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Originally Posted by Alflives View Post
What is corsi?
I'm not as knowlegable about it as some, but essentially, it's shot differential while a certain player is on the ice. It's a useful stat, but many put far too much weight in it. A player can have a high Corsi, but still be a fairly ineffective player, like Mason Raymond, for example.


Last edited by 14s incisor: 09-19-2012 at 07:33 PM.
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09-19-2012, 10:03 PM
  #207
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Originally Posted by 14s incisor View Post
Because corsi isn't as important as other stats, like points.
I disagree. There is a lot more to being a good hockey than putting up points. Corsi is a great way to measure the overall effect you have on a game. Put simply, a player putting up a lot of points but giving up more is not a very good hockey player.

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Originally Posted by Alflives View Post
What is corsi?
http://theleafsnation.com/2012/6/26/...ovski-is-great That explains it pretty well. I'm not really a "stats" guy but when I dug into corsi and saw the kind of names that consistently came out on top, I was sold. It has some solid statistical backing as well (at least that's what I've been lead to believe)

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09-19-2012, 10:08 PM
  #208
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 14s incisor View Post
Because corsi isn't as important as other stats, like points.
Kinda like how On-base Percentage isn't as important as batting average or home runs in baseball?

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09-19-2012, 10:18 PM
  #209
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 14s incisor View Post
I'm not as knowlegable about it as some, but essentially, it's shot differential while a certain player is on the ice. It's a useful stat, but many put far too much weight in it. A player can have a high Corsi, but still be a fairly ineffective player, like Mason Raymond, for example.
What a lot of people don't notice is that like any other stat Corsi needs to be put into context with other statistics. I like to compare it the most to on-ice SV% and S% (or just PDO for the lazy people) plus zone starts and qualicomp to judge the player.

i.e. a player could have a strong Relative Corsi but if he has a poor SV%/S% and gets lots of offensive starts against soft competition then you have to question whether if he's truly a strong possession player.

Let's look at Edler's numbers other than Corsi:

http://www.behindthenet.ca/nhl_stati...4+45+46+63+67#

Edler has a subpar SV%, curiously enough only outdone by Bieksa. His shooting percentage is also very pedestrian relative to other Canuck defensemen. What's important to note is that all of his Corsi/SV%/S% are relatively poor despite getting the most O-zone starts at 58%.

Despite Bieksa having the worst SV% among Canuck defensemen, that is partially offset by him posting very strong Corsi numbers and having a good S%. And I mean, just look at Hamhuis' advanced stats. They do really stand out.

Of course the numbers also need to be put in the context that Edler mostly played with Salo who did worse Corsi-wise. But Sami still helped with a fantastic on-ice SV%.

And there's also the obvious factor of which forwards they mostly played with. Not sure how to get the numbers, but Edler-Salo saw plenty of ice with the Sedins.


Last edited by VinnyC: 09-19-2012 at 10:27 PM.
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09-19-2012, 11:33 PM
  #210
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Originally Posted by y2kcanucks View Post
Kinda like how On-base Percentage isn't as important as batting average or home runs in baseball?
I never said it was useless. People put too much weight in it. Corsi is not a stat that can difinitively decide whether one player is better than another.

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09-20-2012, 12:28 AM
  #211
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Originally Posted by VinnyC View Post
What a lot of people don't notice is that like any other stat Corsi needs to be put into context with other statistics. I like to compare it the most to on-ice SV% and S% (or just PDO for the lazy people) plus zone starts and qualicomp to judge the player.

i.e. a player could have a strong Relative Corsi but if he has a poor SV%/S% and gets lots of offensive starts against soft competition then you have to question whether if he's truly a strong possession player.

Let's look at Edler's numbers other than Corsi:

http://www.behindthenet.ca/nhl_stati...4+45+46+63+67#

Edler has a subpar SV%, curiously enough only outdone by Bieksa. His shooting percentage is also very pedestrian relative to other Canuck defensemen. What's important to note is that all of his Corsi/SV%/S% are relatively poor despite getting the most O-zone starts at 58%.

Despite Bieksa having the worst SV% among Canuck defensemen, that is partially offset by him posting very strong Corsi numbers and having a good S%. And I mean, just look at Hamhuis' advanced stats. They do really stand out.

Of course the numbers also need to be put in the context that Edler mostly played with Salo who did worse Corsi-wise. But Sami still helped with a fantastic on-ice SV%.

And there's also the obvious factor of which forwards they mostly played with. Not sure how to get the numbers, but Edler-Salo saw plenty of ice with the Sedins.
These Sv% and S% variations are more likely to be driven by luck than by anything Edler has done (and that goes doubly for Bieksa's and Hamhuis' S%). This has been quoted around here so many times I won't even waste my time doing it again. The way you're using these stats goes against everything that we've learnt about them to this day.

The amount of abuse of statistics by the anti-Edler camp in this thread has just been mind numbing.


Last edited by Tiranis: 09-20-2012 at 12:34 AM.
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Old
09-20-2012, 12:29 AM
  #212
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Corsi is essentially an improved range of versions of +/-, our most beloved and honoured stat.

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Old
09-20-2012, 12:36 AM
  #213
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Originally Posted by LiveeviL View Post
Corsi is essentially an improved range of versions of +/-, our most beloved and honoured stat.
That seems misleading. On/Off-Ice +/- per 60 are an improved version of +/-. I mean, I guess you could call Corsi an improved version of +/- the same way that goals are an improved version of shots... they're not really measuring the same thing — at all.

--

Anyway, I'll add my voice to this thread beyond statistics now. It's not as if one can argue that Edler is a #1 D right now — he isn't. The problem is that a lot of posters here seem to be understating his impact at ES and completely disregarding his impact at PP and on the PK. Even if Edler is worse at ES than Bieksa and Hamhuis, it's not as significant as it's being presented — especially once you consider his rotating collection of partners. However, the difference on the PP between Bieksa and Elder is astronomical. Edler is one of the best PP D in the league and that alone is worth a significant amount. Once you consider that the cap has risen since both Bieksa and Hamhuis have signed their contracts, it's pretty easy to understand why Edler is worth more.


Last edited by Tiranis: 09-20-2012 at 12:42 AM.
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Old
09-20-2012, 12:52 AM
  #214
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Originally Posted by 14s incisor View Post
I never said it was useless. People put too much weight in it. Corsi is not a stat that can difinitively decide whether one player is better than another.
It's closer to one than points is for defensemen, definitely.

Especially considering that you can have fantastic defensemen who barely get any points, and mediocre defensemen who get alot of points (even Baumgartner has done 40+ before). It's definitely not like it is for forwards.


Last edited by Shareefruck: 09-20-2012 at 12:58 AM.
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09-20-2012, 01:14 AM
  #215
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Originally Posted by Shareefruck View Post
It's closer to one than points is for defensemen, definitely.

Especially considering that you can have fantastic defensemen who barely get any points, and mediocre defensemen who get alot of points (even Baumgartner has done 40+ before). It's definitely not like it is for forwards.
Does it account for the way Edler (sometimes) rushes the puck up the ice? Or his first pass? Its very difficult to replace 50 points from the backend, as we already found out from Ehrhoff. Losing two 50 point players off the blueline in 3 seasons would be pretty catastrophic.

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09-20-2012, 04:25 AM
  #216
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiranis View Post
That seems misleading. On/Off-Ice +/- per 60 are an improved version of +/-. I mean, I guess you could call Corsi an improved version of +/- the same way that goals are an improved version of shots... they're not really measuring the same thing — at all.

--
Well they (+/- and Corsi) do mesaure similar things and yes shots at goal and goals are similar stats too. There are other important qualities - we can all make a long list - which are very dissimilar to or at least other than corsi stats and these other also holds value. In one way we agree here, even if we do not share the conclusions.

Reducing hockey to corsi is nice as you got reliability in that area, but it holds merely partial validity when it comes to answer the question about what constitutes a good hockey player. The problem with many aspects of the game is that it is hard to get proper reliability, to measure capacities, but that does not excuse reducing the discussion to corsi.

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09-20-2012, 06:19 AM
  #217
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Edler is so overrated by Canuck fans it is ridiculous. He isn't some kid with vast potential, he is a player who has reached his peak. The mistakes he has made throughout his entire career show no sign of being corrected as he repeats them season after season. Yes he has fine offensive instincts on the powerplay but so do other players yet to be given his opportunities. If he won't sign for 4.6 million AAV then I say good riddance and then we replace him with a player who is more difficult to play against (Girardi, Orpik, Gorges etc).

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09-20-2012, 08:43 AM
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Originally Posted by professorchaos View Post
Edler is so overrated by Canuck fans it is ridiculous. He isn't some kid with vast potential, he is a player who has reached his peak. The mistakes he has made throughout his entire career show no sign of being corrected as he repeats them season after season. Yes he has fine offensive instincts on the powerplay but so do other players yet to be given his opportunities. If he won't sign for 4.6 million AAV then I say good riddance and then we replace him with a player who is more difficult to play against (Girardi, Orpik, Gorges etc).
Yeah at 26 years of age.

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09-20-2012, 10:02 AM
  #219
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Originally Posted by Scurr View Post
You're right here, poor was the wrong choice of word. Mediocre is better. I don't see why we should be throwing 5.5m+ at a mediocre corsi player.
We will never win the Corsi Cup!!!!

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09-20-2012, 10:05 AM
  #220
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Originally Posted by 14s incisor View Post
I never said it was useless. People put too much weight in it. Corsi is not a stat that can difinitively decide whether one player is better than another.
It can when you want it to.

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09-20-2012, 10:06 AM
  #221
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Edler's a good player, we should definitely try to re-sign him. He got 49 points last year and he's only 26, that number is only going to get better as he begins his prime years. We can't just throw away good players like him, Alex Edlers don't exactly grow on trees, just ask any of the bottom feeder teams or teams that throw away players like Edler and never find a replacement.

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09-20-2012, 10:14 AM
  #222
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I'd be happy with 5 years at 5.75. Get it done!

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09-20-2012, 12:02 PM
  #223
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 14s incisor View Post
Corsi is not a stat that can difinitively decide whether one player is better than another.
It definitely points to who is more effective.

Quote:
Originally Posted by YouCantYandleThis View Post
Does it account for the way Edler (sometimes) rushes the puck up the ice? Or his first pass?
Yes. Edler makes a nice pass or a nice rush and it leads to a shot attempt (usually), which is counted. It also accounts for the times Edler bobbles the puck, falls down playing defence or passes to the other team, leading to a shot against.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiranis View Post

The amount of abuse of statistics by the anti-Edler camp in this thread has just been mind numbing.
Nobody here is anti-Edler, we're anti-Edler making 5.5m without earning it.

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09-20-2012, 12:23 PM
  #224
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Originally Posted by Scurr View Post
Nobody here is anti-Edler, we're anti-Edler making 5.5m without earning it.
Depends on the length of the deal as well (not just the actual cap hit).

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09-20-2012, 12:35 PM
  #225
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Depends on the length of the deal as well (not just the actual cap hit).
This is a good point. A couple guys have recently got big money on two year extensions, that could be an option.

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