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The Armchair GM Thread - Part XXX - Naughty Edition

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Old
11-25-2012, 03:44 PM
  #451
Vankiller Whale
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Another possibility might be something around Flippula, given their similar contract status.

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11-25-2012, 03:53 PM
  #452
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
Another possibility might be something around Flippula, given their similar contract status.
Would prefer someone with a little more grit. We're already way too soft in the top 6, adding another soft player wouldn't really help us.

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Old
11-25-2012, 04:12 PM
  #453
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Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
As I said, I think it would make us a better team now, assuming Ballard can rebound if given the opportunity. The 1st just makes it even more worthwhile.

I'm not sure how trading the best player would make us better right now, but spin away VKW. It's an analysis on the trade itself. That's where it starts and stops.

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Old
11-25-2012, 05:29 PM
  #454
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Had a dream last night.

Tyutin to vancouver for schroeder and a pick
Schneider to TB for ???
Ballard to PHX for scrap pieces and picks

Also I'm crazy when I sleep

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Old
11-25-2012, 06:17 PM
  #455
Vankiller Whale
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Originally Posted by Bleach Clean View Post
I'm not sure how trading the best player would make us better right now, but spin away VKW. It's an analysis on the trade itself. That's where it starts and stops.
I'm not sure that I follow. If we trade from an area of strength(LD) to address an area of weakness(RW), even if we give up the better player it's possible to end off a better team.

Again, this is all assuming Ballard can step up to fill that role. So instead of dumping Ballard while his value's low, we can trade Edler to address a need up front and let Ballard work his way back into relevance again instead of languishing on the third pairing at 4.2 mil.

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11-25-2012, 06:24 PM
  #456
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Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
I wonder...If we were to trade Edler for say, Voracek + 1st, do you guys think that given top-4 ice time and playing with Garrison on the PP Ballard might be able to bounce back into a solid top-4 dman?

Because I think we'd be better with Voracek + Florida's Ballard than Edler + third pairing Ballard.

And if we can pick up another piece like a 1st as well, then why not, I say? Would also save us somecap space when it's time for Edler's extension.
Apperntly I am a dick, or "that guy" and wanted to point out if we traded Edler, we wouldn't need to create room to re-sign him...

but on the trade itself, It's a tough one, Bleach is right with a lot of it, but i think then it depends what happens with lui first. This is a move I would for sure say is a Domino effect trade.

I think Ballard could definitely find his game again too, playing with Garrison who is rock solid on D, plus how he looked att he end of last season.

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Old
11-25-2012, 06:31 PM
  #457
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Originally Posted by racerjoe View Post
Apperntly I am a dick, or "that guy" and wanted to point out if we traded Edler, we wouldn't need to create room to re-sign him...
What I meant was that although Voracek makes marginally more now, he's locked up long term while Edler would likely be commanding a salary of 5mil+.

Quote:
but on the trade itself, It's a tough one, Bleach is right with a lot of it, but i think then it depends what happens with lui first. This is a move I would for sure say is a Domino effect trade.

I think Ballard could definitely find his game again too, playing with Garrison who is rock solid on D, plus how he looked att he end of last season.
The biggest issue with me is that if we were forced by the cap to trade Ballard for a 2nd, or something, would we be a better team with Ballard, Voracek, and a 1st, or Edler and a 2nd?

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11-25-2012, 06:34 PM
  #458
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Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
What I meant was that although Voracek makes marginally more now, he's locked up long term while Edler would likely be commanding a salary of 5mil+.



The biggest issue with me is that if we were forced by the cap to trade Ballard for a 2nd, or something, would we be a better team with Ballard, Voracek, and a 1st, or Edler and a 2nd?
As Gillis says all the time, I think it is all apart of the ever moving parts, i think they are things you discuss with teams to see what would happen if this domino fell and in the end you guess what is right cause you will never know.

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11-25-2012, 06:49 PM
  #459
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Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
I'm not sure that I follow. If we trade from an area of strength(LD) to address an area of weakness(RW), even if we give up the better player it's possible to end off a better team.


Interesting. Trade the best player and become better overall? For instance, if BOS needs a better RD. Trade Chara to us for Ballard and Tanev? It makes them better overall does it not? They fix their greatest need and get a LD in return. Very interesting.



I know you don't follow. Perhaps Tiranis's explanation is better than my own? _Any_ time you trade the best player in the deal, you lose.



Quote:
Again, this is all assuming Ballard can step up to fill that role. So instead of dumping Ballard while his value's low, we can trade Edler to address a need up front and let Ballard work his way back into relevance again instead of languishing on the third pairing at 4.2 mil.


Or how about trade Ballard for Chara?

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Old
11-25-2012, 06:57 PM
  #460
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Originally Posted by Bleach Clean View Post
Interesting. Trade the best player and become better overall? For instance, if BOS needs a better RD. Trade Chara to us for Ballard and Tanev? It makes them better overall does it not? They fix their greatest need and get a LD in return. Very interesting.

I know you don't follow. Perhaps Tiranis's explanation is better than my own? _Any_ time you trade the best player in the deal, you lose.

Or how about trade Ballard for Chara?
Do I really have to answer this?

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Old
11-25-2012, 07:07 PM
  #461
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiranis View Post
No. The team that trades the best player always loses and Edler is quite clearly the best player. Voracek + 1st is a joke of a return.
Scott Gomez outplayed Higgins the year he was traded, propping up 58 points to boot. While McDonagh was struggling in the AHL. It was a garbage trade but there is no doubt Gomez was the "best player" in the deal at the time. Do I even need to say how that turned out? How about the Kessel trade? If that is losing, sign me up!

This myth has a good chance of screwing you when it feels like it. If we get Voracek + 1st for Edler, perhaps we can flip Luongo for Gunnerson+

Sedin - Sedin - Burrows
Booth - Kesler - Voracek
Higgins - Kadri/Schroeder - Hansen
Lapierre - Malhotra - Weise/Kassian

Hamhuis - Bieska
Ballard - Garrison
Gunnerson - Tanev

Schneider
Lack

Hardly anything to snuff at.


Last edited by Bourne Endeavor: 11-25-2012 at 07:15 PM.
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Old
11-25-2012, 07:53 PM
  #462
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Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
Do I really have to answer this?


Not at all. I'm just hoping you understand it.

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Old
11-25-2012, 07:57 PM
  #463
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You mean trade Edler, our go-to PP defenseman option who has chemistry with the Sedins, a potential no. 1 defenseman in the near future for a good RW'er and a 1st?

AND then we just straight up hope Ballard does a complete 180 in his game and AV likes him again?

Ok.

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Old
11-25-2012, 08:00 PM
  #464
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Originally Posted by Bourne Endeavor View Post
Scott Gomez outplayed Higgins the year he was traded, propping up 58 points to boot. While McDonagh was struggling in the AHL. It was a garbage trade but there is no doubt Gomez was the "best player" in the deal at the time. Do I even need to say how that turned out? How about the Kessel trade? If that is losing, sign me up!

This myth has a good chance of screwing you when it feels like it. If we get Voracek + 1st for Edler, perhaps we can flip Luongo for Gunnerson+

Sedin - Sedin - Burrows
Booth - Kesler - Voracek
Higgins - Kadri/Schroeder - Hansen
Lapierre - Malhotra - Weise/Kassian

Hamhuis - Bieska
Ballard - Garrison
Gunnerson - Tanev

Schneider
Lack

Hardly anything to snuff at.


Not a fair comparison. Gomez's contract was a true albatross. Around the league he was known to have negative value because of it. So that trade was a win for NYR regardless. It's like saying Komisarek is "better" than Sauve. Yes, Sauve is struggling, but the Canucks would be daft to take on a 4.5m NMC Komisarek in exchange for an asset they can just leave in the minors.



Actually, the Kessel trade is something Tiranis has already discussed: The top3 pick coming back and making an immediate impact. Seguin jumped straight into the league and the rest is history. This is the future asset being good in a hurry, so as to mitigate the short-term affects, and make it a significant win long-term.

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Old
11-25-2012, 08:02 PM
  #465
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Originally Posted by Reverend Mayhem View Post
You mean trade Edler, our go-to PP defenseman option who has chemistry with the Sedins, a potential no. 1 defenseman in the near future for a good RW'er and a 1st?

AND then we just straight up hope Ballard does a complete 180 in his game and AV likes him again?

Ok.


We agree Rev. All is not lost in the world.

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Old
11-25-2012, 08:03 PM
  #466
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Originally Posted by Bleach Clean View Post
Not at all. I'm just hoping you understand it.
I literally do not have a clue what point you were trying to make with the Ballard vs Chara comparison.

The Bruins are a much, much, much better team with Chara than with Ballard/Tanev. The thought that I was floating was that we might end up being a better team with Ballard + Voracek on the roster instead of just Edler(which one could debate, depending on if Ballard is up to it). Throw in a 1st in a strong draft and there might be a good incentive to pull of something of this nature.

And as Bourne Endeavor said, it's ludicrous to think whoever trades the best player is guaranteed to end up the worse team.

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11-25-2012, 08:26 PM
  #467
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The problem with trading Edler is that we already got rid of Ehrhoff (and presumably to help cost control Edler...). If we trade Edler, we have almost no offensive talent on d. That is a huge gap, and bigger than the one that we'd fill with Voracek. We also have no one in the system that has a chance to fill Edler's spot, whereas we do have two in the system that have a chance at taking the open second line position.

Quote:
Originally Posted by StringerBell View Post
Yeah, just like when Voracek was traded for Carter a year ago. Columbus easily won that trade!



To be fair, neither Voracek nor Carter may end up being the best player in that deal. Couturier shifted the balance immensely in that deal.

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11-25-2012, 08:26 PM
  #468
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Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
I literally do not have a clue what point you were trying to make with the Ballard vs Chara comparison.

The Bruins are a much, much, much better team with Chara than with Ballard/Tanev. The thought that I was floating was that we might end up being a better team with Ballard + Voracek on the roster instead of just Edler(which one could debate, depending on if Ballard is up to it). Throw in a 1st in a strong draft and there might be a good incentive to pull of something of this nature.

And as Bourne Endeavor said, it's ludicrous to think whoever trades the best player is guaranteed to end up the worse team.



Yup, as I guessed it, you didn't get it. As you were...


Tiranis hit it right on the head with his post. You don't have to agree with me, but his point holds true for the majority of all deals in the NHL.

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11-25-2012, 08:36 PM
  #469
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Originally Posted by Bleach Clean View Post
Yup, as I guessed it, you didn't get it. As you were...


Tiranis hit it right on the head with his post. You don't have to agree with me, but his point holds true for the majority of all deals in the NHL.
I think to figure out if it would be worth while, two things need to be sorted, what would we get for Edler. And what can we Get for Lui. The Value between the two may make him expendable.

What if we got Gardiner back from the leafs, would this make an Edler trade make more sense?

I understand your point, I just think it is an interesting POV. Something i may want to take a look at. someone should make a Value of Edler thread.

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11-25-2012, 08:45 PM
  #470
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We agree Rev. All is not lost in the world.
Except the NHL.

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11-25-2012, 08:49 PM
  #471
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Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
I literally do not have a clue what point you were trying to make with the Ballard vs Chara comparison.

The Bruins are a much, much, much better team with Chara than with Ballard/Tanev. The thought that I was floating was that we might end up being a better team with Ballard + Voracek oin a 1st in a strong draft and there might be a good n the roster instead of just Edler(which one could debate, depending on if Ballard is up to it). Throw incentive to pull of something of this nature.
And we're a much better team with Edler than with Ballard and Voracek. There is absolutely no doubt about this. Ballard is a complete shell of his former self and you would be naive to think that Ballard would suddenly re-emerge as a legitimate top-4 defenseman.

It's stupid that you're even arguing this.

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11-25-2012, 09:02 PM
  #472
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Originally Posted by kanuck87 View Post
And we're a much better team with Edler than with Ballard and Voracek. There is absolutely no doubt about this. Ballard is a complete shell of his former self and you would be naive to think that Ballard would suddenly re-emerge as a legitimate top-4 defenseman.

It's stupid that you're even arguing this.
Ballard has the potential, and he's been performing well in the role he's been given so far. Obviously I'm not saying he'd be able to replace Edler, but would the difference between them, if given the exact same minutes/PP time, be more than a 23-year old 50-point playmaking RW with upside?

A lot of people on HF buy into the myth that Ballard is basically Vancouver's version of Mike Komisarek, but I think it's at least worth discussion about just how we should manage our assets to maximize their ability to perform. Selling low on Ballard as a cap dump vs selling high on Edler and giving a chance to Ballard to recover his former production doesn't seem like a terrible idea to me.

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11-25-2012, 10:56 PM
  #473
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Everyone's got it dead wrong with how they value Edler.

He is our best all-around defenceman, he simply does it all (no, I don't include gooning it up Bruin style as a skill), one crappy series does not change a thing.

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11-26-2012, 12:26 AM
  #474
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Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
Ballard has the potential, and he's been performing well in the role he's been given so far. Obviously I'm not saying he'd be able to replace Edler, but would the difference between them, if given the exact same minutes/PP time, be more than a 23-year old 50-point playmaking RW with upside?

A lot of people on HF buy into the myth that Ballard is basically Vancouver's version of Mike Komisarek, but I think it's at least worth discussion about just how we should manage our assets to maximize their ability to perform. Selling low on Ballard as a cap dump vs selling high on Edler and giving a chance to Ballard to recover his former production doesn't seem like a terrible idea to me.
There are so many things that I disagree with in this post that I don't even know where to begin.

The team is not better off now or in the future with Ballard and a legit 2nd line winger than with Edler.

Instead of comparing Edler to Ballard and Voracek, why aren't you also including a forward to pair up with Edler who theoretically would take the spot that isn't being occupied by Voracek? That player could be Higgins.

So all things being equal, would you rather have Edler/Higgins or Ballard/Voracek? When you also take into consideration how rare a player of Edler's skillset and potential is compared to Voracek and Ballard, that's where your argument is dumb.

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11-26-2012, 01:03 AM
  #475
Vankiller Whale
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There are so many things that I disagree with in this post that I don't even know where to begin.

The team is not better off now or in the future with Ballard and a legit 2nd line winger than with Edler.

Instead of comparing Edler to Ballard and Voracek, why aren't you also including a forward to pair up with Edler who theoretically would take the spot that isn't being occupied by Voracek? That player could be Higgins.

So all things being equal, would you rather have Edler/Higgins or Ballard/Voracek? When you also take into consideration how rare a player of Edler's skillset and potential is compared to Voracek and Ballard, that's where your argument is dumb.
Higgins isn't making 4.2 mil and the first player on the block to be traded in a cap crunch, that's why.

We could either look like:

Sedins-Burrows
Booth-Kesler-Higgins
Raymond-Malhotra/Schroeder-Hansen
Weise-Lapierre-Kassian

Hamhuis-Bieksa
Edler-Garrison
Ballard/xxx-Tanev

or

Sedins Burrows
Booth-Kesler-Voracek
Higgins-Malhotra/Schroeder-Hansen
Raymond-Lapierre-Kassian

Hamhuis-Bieksa
Ballard-Garrison
xxx/Connauton-Tanev

With a 1st as well.

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