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François Allaire will not return as goalie coach for the Toronto Maple Leafs

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Old
09-19-2012, 10:43 AM
  #351
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Originally Posted by Wendel17 View Post
Even the most staunch Burke supporters will tell you that his biggest weakness is his big mouth and bold statements. Frankly, Burke has failed miserably at managing expectations because he has set expectations far too high with said mouth.

With that said, if you look at the actual work he has done, and the talent he is slowly assembling, you will see he is moving in the right direction. Yes, on ice results have not come yet, but I like this team on paper far more than the Stajan/Antro/Poni team he inherited.

He has made mistakes and to his credit has admitted to them (bringing in Versteeg, giving Toskala another chance, etc). He is not perfect. No GM is.
Well said.

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09-19-2012, 10:43 AM
  #352
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Originally Posted by janecky View Post
There is an obvious truth in this: you let a coach succeed or fail on his terms. If you start to meddle, you take away the coach's ability to control the process. Either you trust your guy or you don't, and if you don't, you hire a guy you trust.
It was obvious Allaire was failing doing it his own way. Burke being Burke, tried to find a way to keep him around (much like he did with Wilson).

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09-19-2012, 10:44 AM
  #353
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Originally Posted by ULF_55 View Post
I wish people would leave Burke alone now that he is a full fledged member of Tank Nation.

When he said he wasn't doing the long 5 year rebuild he was just kidding.

Burke the Tank Commander.
That's the thing all these Burke haters don't realize. If he gets canned, the new guy will come in here and trade whatever young assets we have just to get into the playoffs.

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09-19-2012, 10:52 AM
  #354
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Originally Posted by MajorityRules View Post
With the job I do, I see a lot of 'leaders' routinely throw their people under a bus or abandon them in their time of need. It happens a lot when they become more concerned with their own well being over someone they've been looking after and mentoring.

Then there are those that will sacrifice themselves to protect the people that work for them. I've witnessed some pretty remarkable things and found I had a great deal of respect for those that will always put their people ahead of themselves. I guess that's the military in me.

I've found Burke to be in the mold of those leaders I've always respected as he ultimately believes in protecting his players and keeping the negativity of the team out of the spotlight and clearly on himself. I can't fault him for that.

What's really going on behind closed doors is anyone's guess and we can speculate all we want but none of us knows the full truth but taking pot shots at the team using a public forum such as the media is childish and reeks of desperation. Burke was well within his rights to defend the team.

Like ND, I love being a Burkite.
I respect his loyalty to players and coaches, but there comes a point when he has to choose between loyalty and the well being of the team.

Based on the reports that have come out since Wilson's dismissal it appears the attitude in the room was toxic; coaching staff not on talking terms, arguments over practices, major confidence issues, etc.

If things were this bad, which Burke pretty much verified, Allaire should have been let go at the end of last season, not praised as the "best goalie coach in the world" while making a statement proclaiming “he’s not going anywhere," and “anybody who thinks differently is badly mistaken.” Same goes for how he handled Wilson.

It's no wonder we lost the season, and I put part of that blame on Burke's loyalty, which I hate to say has hurt the team more helped it. It is starting to appear that Burke's loyalty to his incompetent staff, and 'starting' goalies will be his downfall once again.

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09-19-2012, 10:55 AM
  #355
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Originally Posted by AlmightyPO View Post
I respect his loyalty to players and coaches, but there comes a point when he has to choose between loyalty and the well being of the team.

Based on the reports that have come out since Wilson's dismissal it appears the attitude in the room was toxic; coaching staff not on talking terms, arguments over practices, major confidence issues, etc.

If things this bad, which Burke pretty much verified Allaire should have been let go at the end of last season, not praised as the "best goalie coach in the world" while making a statement proclaiming “he’s not going anywhere," and “anybody who thinks differently is badly mistaken.” Same goes for how he handled Wilson.

It's no wonder we lost the season, and I put part of that blame on Burke's loyalty, which I hate to say has hurt the team more helped it. It is starting to appear that Burke's loyalty to his incompetent staff, and 'starting' goalies will be his downfall once again.
Where did he confirm that?

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09-19-2012, 11:01 AM
  #356
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Originally Posted by Wendel17 View Post
1. He offered him a contract extension with conditions attached.

2. Burke called Allaire the best goalie coach in the world a few months ago as it is not professional to throw people under the bus publicly and it doesn't really build morale and loyalty within the organization.

3. Allaire shot his mouth off when he left. He shouldn't have. The Leafs responded.

To all the people criticizing Burke, think of your own job and relationship with your boss. You screw something up, you want your boss to:

a. Defend you
b. Throw you under the bus

Your boss defends you, but then you decide to leave the company and call him an idiot on the way out. Your boss:

a. Responds to your criticisms
b. Sits quietly like a chump

Lol at the people criticizing Burke at all for this one. Get a clue. If you have boss, or if you are one yourself, then this should be easy for your to understand.
This sounds a lot like science fiction to me.
You're the Phillip K. Dick of Professional Hockey.

Where has it been mentioned that Burke imposed 'Conditions' on Allaires contract? Other than by Northern Dancer on HFboards that is.

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09-19-2012, 11:03 AM
  #357
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Originally Posted by CrazeeEddie View Post
Where did he confirm that?
He verified the problems with Allaire, not the other things that have been reported during and after Wilson's tenure. Obviously we will never know for sure whether those reports are true, but the fact Burke has to deal with a highly regarded coach like Allaire speaking out against such things is proof enough to me that it wasn't the best atmosphere. Either way, my point is if Burke actually felt like Allaire wasn't doing his job well enough, was outdated, and sent other coaches to help, why was Allaire still part of the team, and why did he suggest there was no way he was leaving at the end of last season?
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Originally Posted by DaveT83 View Post
This sounds a lot like science fiction to me.
You're the Phillip K. Dick of Professional Hockey.

Where has it been mentioned that Burke imposed 'Conditions' on Allaires contract? Other than by Northern Dancer on HFboards that is.
http://www.thestar.com/sports/leafs/...ns-vicious-cox


Last edited by AlmightyPO: 09-19-2012 at 11:08 AM.
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09-19-2012, 11:09 AM
  #358
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What do you do with the Coach with the Worst record in NHL after 3 years?
You give him a contract extension.

What do you do with the Worst Goalie Coach in NHL after 3 years?
You give him a contract extension.

Why?



Because as ULF_ elluded to. Brian Burke is the Supreme Tank Commander
It is the only logical explanation. NO General Manager who suppossedly cared about Winning would do these things. No human being could attain that position and behave this foolishly.
Its all beginning to add up. The pieces are starting to fit.

Brian Burke - Supreme Tank Commander of the Toronto Maple Leafs.

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09-19-2012, 11:25 AM
  #359
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Originally Posted by AlmightyPO View Post
He verified the problems with Allaire, not the other things that have been reported during and after Wilson's tenure. Obviously we will never know for sure whether those reports are true, but the fact Burke has to deal with a highly regarded coach like Allaire speaking out against such things is proof enough to me that it wasn't the best atmosphere. Either way, my point is if Burke actually felt like Allaire wasn't doing his job well enough, was outdated, and sent other coaches to help, why was Allaire still part of the team, and why did he suggest there was no way he was leaving at the end of last season?

http://www.thestar.com/sports/leafs/...ns-vicious-cox
Thanks - Damien Cox is a Burke Apologist.

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09-19-2012, 11:37 AM
  #360
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Don't forget Burke's committment to Bettman.

I shall not bid on free agents of quality but shall rather sign junk at high prices.The cracks are starting to show and it is very doubtful Burke survives past this season with his loyalty to junk,stay away from good free agents and finish 7 to 10 last and achieve nothing while making my followers look like buffoons.All his hot air,was just that.He has no real plan to win,just to obey Bettman and make Leaf fans pay for the teams who can't make money.If Kessel walks away ,his tenure will be remembered as pure junk and the rebuild he refused will begin anyway.

5 more years with no playoffs is a very real possibility in this gong show.

He was forced to fire Wilson and Allaire quits,hardly a good GM.

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09-19-2012, 11:46 AM
  #361
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Why are people still talking about it. He failed, and coaches get fired after performances like that.

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09-19-2012, 11:52 AM
  #362
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Originally Posted by Wendel17 View Post
That's the thing all these Burke haters don't realize. If he gets canned, the new guy will come in here and trade whatever young assets we have just to get into the playoffs.

A) Trading for Kessel is not a tank.Burke did trade young assets to a rival,just to get into the playoffs,it failed while helping a team in our divsion.

B) A new GM may be honest and say this team isn't nearly good enough to win the East and say we need to rebuild while getting young assets for Kessel,Lupul,Grabo and possibly even Phaneuff.While Burke has done some mending to our prospect pool, with the biggest scouting team in the world, after 4 years there is only Reilly as elite/impact.Many of our prospects are the same good prospects other teams have,making the comparison to other leaf GM's argument invalid.

Burke has set no real course ,except putting the the agenda of others over Leaf fans.Last year was the biggest revolt of Leaf fans ever and when all is said and done,years from now,we will find that(his real agenda) out.


Last edited by darrylsittler27: 09-19-2012 at 12:02 PM.
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09-19-2012, 12:02 PM
  #363
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Originally Posted by Liferleafer View Post
Without reading the whole thread, i'll give my 2 cents. THANK GOD, a goalie coach should do just that, coach. Allaire should be dubbed a goalie cloner. He should learn to work within a goalie's skillset, not try to completely change everything they know so he can make another Roy/Giguere/Luongo clone. All great goalies yes, but that's not how Reimer/Gus got to the NHL. I truely believe that was the reason our goaltending was horrid last year.
This is pretty much the be all and end all of the sitution. Allaire couldn't get it done. And it would seem to be because he was unwilling to work with the talents our current goalie had, and rather, tried to make them something there not.


Burke not getting Allaire what he want is bologna. Its not the goalie coaches job to only work with the strenghts of one style of goalie. its their job to get the most out of every goalie, regardless if they fit his theory of what a goalie should be. Its clear that Gus was fundamentally changed from what he started out as here and what made him the best goalie not in the NHL. Most all bad goals, it was obvious it was due to him playing a way he was clearly uncomfortable doing so. Not sure who Detroit's goalie coach is (that's the way it should be with goalie coaches, behind the scenes, not in the spot light) but I'm sure he will develop Gus into a solid starter. They have a record of not having the greatest goaltenders, but getting great goaltending. Osgood, now Howard, both had they're strenghts and weaknesses but are worked with to develop those strenghts and minimuize ther weakness.

I'm not trying to say why can't we be more like Detroit, but why can't we bre more like Detroit. Record of not elite goalies, but still, great goaltrnding.

A goalie coach is actually an obscure position. I can name Hextall out in LA ( only from the cup win coverage) and our own. I would guess that many fans of many teams could name Torontos goalie coach. I figure Allaire felt himself bigger than just a goalie coach, but that's just a gut feeling.

Everyting else is just smoke obsuring the really simple story here. Allaire couldn't get the best out of our goalies. Whether he wss micromanaged or couldn't get one on one time, it doesn't matter, his style of teaching goalies was not going to work with our current goalies.

I don't know why the argument is being thrown around that Burke should have gotten 'Allaire Goalies'. That in itself is proof that Allaire couldn't do his job, getting the most out of our goalie, when he needs a certain tyoe of goalie to succeed.

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09-19-2012, 12:08 PM
  #364
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If there's any truth to anything that Damien Cox said in his article relating to the bust up between Allaire and the coaching staff and the "conditions" that he was set...

...just pathetic. What an absolute farce. Brunt of the joke - our Toronto Maple Leafs, ladies and gentlemen.

How does something that happened in March, come out in September? And by Cox no less!?

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09-19-2012, 12:17 PM
  #365
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Thanks - Damien Cox is a Burke Apologist.
????

Now I'm really confused as to what exactly an apologist is? Is it similar to a realist?

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09-19-2012, 12:31 PM
  #366
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Originally Posted by Tak7 View Post
If there's any truth to anything that Damien Cox said in his article relating to the bust up between Allaire and the coaching staff and the "conditions" that he was set...

...just pathetic. What an absolute farce. Brunt of the joke - our Toronto Maple Leafs, ladies and gentlemen.

How does something that happened in March, come out in September? And by Cox no less!?
The truth is that Allaire had a career ending injury, and only Cox knew about it.

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09-19-2012, 12:34 PM
  #367
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Nobody I believe on here is going to miss Allaire. The guy was exactly what Burke says - out dated. Egotistical. Un-cooperative. His record in Toronto speaks for itself. Lots of blame to go around. From the Defence. To systems. To caliber of personnel on the ice. Doesn't matter. Allaire had to go. That was pretty evident to even the most casual of viewers.

What doesn't make sense is Brians refusal to see this - and assess the situation accordingly. Especially if 'drama' was being created within the dressing room - during a time when the team had completely fallen off the cliff in standings. Allaire should have been dealt with right then and there. No stipulations. No meddling. He simply should have been removed. Not offered an extension.

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09-19-2012, 12:39 PM
  #368
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Originally Posted by CrazeeEddie View Post
????

Now I'm really confused as to what exactly an apologist is? Is it similar to a realist?
Apologist
noun

A person who argues in defense or justification of something, such as a doctrine, policy, or institution.

In your case Brian Burke's horrid mis-handling of this franchise.

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09-19-2012, 12:42 PM
  #369
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Originally Posted by AlmightyPO View Post
Based on the reports that have come out since Wilson's dismissal it appears the attitude in the room was toxic; coaching staff not on talking terms, arguments over practices, major confidence issues, etc..
Hopefully Allaire's parting comments, emphasizing and exposes the multi-headed Leafs management team that is struggling to gain any success, doesn't fall on deaf ears.. New ownership is being made aware of the internal situations and struggles that are taking place, with people getting in the way of qualified employees own job tasks.

Hiring the "worlds top goalie coach" and then having less qualified people tell him how to do his job best has some serious logic flaws. It be like hiring Michelangelo to paint your chapel and then have the local staff tell him what he is doing wrong.

Allaire's results through his goalies, earns him his departure, but the problem is not solved, as its not the goalie coach who just happens to be the current scapegoat, as the reason for the failure of the team overall. Allaire pointed out the teams refusal to play defense, and too many cooks in the kitchen as some of the reasons behind his failure at his own job.

Loyalty will not be an obstacle to MLSE ownership, as they've inherited management with their purchase, and owe no one anything beyond that point.

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09-19-2012, 01:02 PM
  #370
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Hopefully Allaire's parting comments, emphasizing and exposes the multi-headed Leafs management team that is struggling to gain any success, doesn't fall on deaf ears.. New ownership is being made aware of the internal situations and struggles that are taking place, with people getting in the way of qualified employees own job tasks.

Hiring the "worlds top goalie coach" and then having less qualified people tell him how to do his job best has some serious logic flaws. It be like hiring Michelangelo to paint your chapel and then have the local staff tell him what he is doing wrong.

Allaire's results through his goalies, earns him his departure, but the problem is not solved, as its not the goalie coach who just happens to be the current scapegoat, as the reason for the failure of the team overall. Allaire pointed out the teams refusal to play defense, and too many cooks in the kitchen as some of the reasons behind his failure at his own job.

Loyalty will not be an obstacle to MLSE ownership, as they've inherited management with their purchase, and owe no one anything beyond that point.
Were you in the dressing room? On the ice? How do you know they were telling him what to do? Should they just keep their mouths shut if something is not working? Perhaps we should all stop pretending that we know what's going on?

As for the management, I hope Eogers stays as far away as possible seeing what they've done with the Jays, although you can keep hinting that things are gonna change based on nothing

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09-19-2012, 02:04 PM
  #371
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Originally Posted by DaveT83 View Post
This sounds a lot like science fiction to me.
You're the Phillip K. Dick of Professional Hockey.

Where has it been mentioned that Burke imposed 'Conditions' on Allaires contract? Other than by Northern Dancer on HFboards that is.
Damien Cox in The Star:

http://www.thestar.com/sports/leafs/...ns-vicious-cox

Quote:
Randy Carlyle, who had worked with Allaire in Anaheim, gave the goalie coach a list of three conditions he would have to meet if he wanted to return for the 2012-13 season. The list included: working a maximum 17 days a month, including six with the Marlies, rather than being around the team every day; apologizing to the coaches on staff he had offended; and a commitment to teaching a more aggressive goaltending style.

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09-19-2012, 02:06 PM
  #372
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Originally Posted by DaveT83 View Post
Nobody I believe on here is going to miss Allaire. The guy was exactly what Burke says - out dated. Egotistical. Un-cooperative. His record in Toronto speaks for itself. Lots of blame to go around. From the Defence. To systems. To caliber of personnel on the ice. Doesn't matter. Allaire had to go. That was pretty evident to even the most casual of viewers.

What doesn't make sense is Brians refusal to see this - and assess the situation accordingly. Especially if 'drama' was being created within the dressing room - during a time when the team had completely fallen off the cliff in standings. Allaire should have been dealt with right then and there. No stipulations. No meddling. He simply should have been removed. Not offered an extension.
Talk about Phillip K. Dick. Do you know Allaire personally?

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09-19-2012, 02:14 PM
  #373
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What do you do with the Coach with the Worst record in NHL after 3 years?
You give him a contract extension.

What do you do with the Worst Goalie Coach in NHL after 3 years?
You give him a contract extension.

Why?
A coach being given a contract extension mid season is not something that has only been done by Brian Burke. All GM's have done this at one time or another. In the case of Wilson, the team was playing well when the extension was granted. And as any GM would tell you, having a coach on the last year of his contract makes him a lame duck. That doesn't exactly inspire confidence in anyone (players, the coach himself). But why let's facts get in the way of your argument?

You make it sound like the extension guaranteed that Wilson would be back to honour the rest of the deal. We know that obviously didn't happen. So why are you whining about it? Who cares? Did Burke spend your money? Wilson is gone, and the extension had nothing to do with it. Ultimately the results were not good enough, and that alone is what should determine a coach's fate.

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09-19-2012, 02:18 PM
  #374
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Thanks - Damien Cox is a Burke Apologist.
No. Cox can see the Forrest from the trees. He sees the big picture and understands that the organization, for the first time in a long time, is much further ahead than it has ever been.

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09-19-2012, 03:09 PM
  #375
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Originally Posted by DaveT83 View Post
Apologist
noun

A person who argues in defense or justification of something, such as a doctrine, policy, or institution.

In your case Brian Burke's horrid mis-handling of this franchise.
In my case? But I thought I was a Burkite? I'm so confused. Also still unsure how Cox fits?

And based on this definition, are you not also an apologist?

Or maybe an antagonist?


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