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Planet USA All-Star Team Announced

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Old
01-27-2005, 04:15 PM
  #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sabrefan27
If you followed the Amerks on a game by game basis, you'd know why.
Can you please do me a favor and put your bias aside for just a minute?

First things first, Lehtonen won the popular vote. Since the AHL uses that to determine the starters, there is no use even arguing about this point.

Second, if the AHL picked the team without the fan vote, I think we would agree that the 3 netminders would be Niittymaki, Miller and Toivanen.

Third (where we will probably disagree), IMO the fact that Toivanen has a better (marginally) GAA and save %age while playing for a team that is just above .500 and has only scored 3 more goals than they have allowed is more deserving of the All-Star spot than Miller who plays for a first place team that has scored 24 more goals than they have allowed.

All of that being said, Toivanen may be just as happy to miss the Skills/All-Star game as most netminders refer to it as a goalie's worst nightmare due to breakaway relays, rapid fire drills, 3 on 0 drills and one period of defenseless hockey.

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01-27-2005, 04:18 PM
  #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pelts35.com
Can you please do me a favor and put your bias aside for just a minute?

First things first, Lehtonen won the popular vote. Since the AHL uses that to determine the starters, there is no use even arguing about this point.

Second, if the AHL picked the team without the fan vote, I think we would agree that the 3 netminders would be Niittymaki, Miller and Toivanen.

Third (where we will probably disagree), IMO the fact that Toivanen has a better (marginally) GAA and save %age while playing for a team that is just above .500 and has only scored 3 more goals than they have allowed is more deserving of the All-Star spot than Miller who plays for a first place team that has scored 24 more goals than they have allowed.

All of that being said, Toivanen may be just as happy to miss the Skills/All-Star game as most netminders refer to it as a goalie's worst nightmare due to breakaway relays, rapid fire drills, 3 on 0 drills and one period of defenseless hockey.
You bring up some good points. The only thing I can respond with is the fact that miller had a horrific start and if you look at his statistics after his first 5 games, they'd be better than Toivanen's.

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01-27-2005, 04:20 PM
  #28
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Miller has had a bigger impact on Rochester's success than Toivonen, let's put it like that.

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Old
01-27-2005, 04:53 PM
  #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by littleHossa
Miller has had a bigger impact on Rochester's success than Toivonen, let's put it like that.
Since Toivonen hasn't had any impact on Rochester's success, I guess you would be correct.

Nice one sentence answer, however. Care to back that up a little bit?

Does Miller have some assists that have led to the 24 goal differential that makes a bigger impact on Rochester's success?

I find it difficult to say that Toivonen has had less impact on Providence's success when they have only scored 3 more goals than they have allowed (of the 121 that Providence has allowed, Toivonen is only responsible for 69 of them). I just love when people blame goalies for a team's misfortune, especially when the goalie has a 2.07 GAA and a save %age of .932.

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01-27-2005, 04:58 PM
  #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sabrefan27
You bring up some good points. The only thing I can respond with is the fact that miller had a horrific start and if you look at his statistics after his first 5 games, they'd be better than Toivanen's.
So, in other words, the fact that Miller had a bad start and Toivonen had a good start is what separates their stats? Well, isn't that why they play a full season of games?

Sorry, that argument doesn't fly. You can't take out some games and include others to make the stats look better. With logic like that, take away the Phantoms record winning streak and they would barely be above .500. Problem with that is that you can't take away that streak, just like you can't take away Miller's first 5 games.

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01-27-2005, 05:19 PM
  #31
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I'd like to see a line of Ryan Kesler centering Andy Hilbert and Dustin Brown.

3 Highest scoring players on the Planet USA Roster. Brown and Kesler are both physical players, Kesler is a great 2 way center. This would be a great line/

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01-27-2005, 05:20 PM
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pelts35.com
Since Toivonen hasn't had any impact on Rochester's success, I guess you would be correct.


I would have like to have seen Gleason make it, but he hasn't put up the numbers some other have.

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01-27-2005, 05:36 PM
  #33
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First off, Miller has more wins than any other goalie, let's not forget this. People put alot of emphasis on GAA and SV%, too much actually.

As for Toivonen vs. Miller is concerned. In 2 more games, Miller has faced 139 more shots. So it's not like Miller doesn't see any shots every night, in fact lately he's been seeing 35-44 shots each night.

You make the argument that the Amerks have a +24 goal differential and the Bruins are a minus differential. Has it ever occured to you that this is because of Ryan Miller? Because that's exactly what's going on. The Amerks ARE NOT an offensive dynamo, they constantly win games 2-1 or 3-2. Providence has scored one more goal than the Amerks this year by the way.

Each of the backup goalies (which you seem to be using as a reason why Toivonen is better) average out to see about the same number of shots each night and I think using the "Amerks defense is so much better" card subliminally (which you're also doing) isn't a fair statement.

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Old
01-27-2005, 05:41 PM
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pelts35.com
So, in other words, the fact that Miller had a bad start and Toivonen had a good start is what separates their stats? Well, isn't that why they play a full season of games?

Sorry, that argument doesn't fly. You can't take out some games and include others to make the stats look better. With logic like that, take away the Phantoms record winning streak and they would barely be above .500. Problem with that is that you can't take away that streak, just like you can't take away Miller's first 5 games.
Right you are. I don't pretend to act like I know a ton about Providence and Toivanen, but I do know about Rochester. The defense is severely banged up and has an ECHLer getting a lot of time. They have been giving up a lot of quality shots lately and Miller has been unreal. Again, you'd have to watch for your own eyes what he's been doing. Amazing performance after amazing performance.

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01-27-2005, 06:04 PM
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sabrefan27
Right you are. I don't pretend to act like I know a ton about Providence and Toivanen, but I do know about Rochester. The defense is severely banged up and has an ECHLer getting a lot of time. They have been giving up a lot of quality shots lately and Miller has been unreal. Again, you'd have to watch for your own eyes what he's been doing. Amazing performance after amazing performance.
We are going to have to agree to disagree here.

I'm not taking anything away from Ryan Miller. I have watched a dozen or so games with him in net and I do believe that he is definitely among the top of list of goaltending prospects, as is Toivonen.

All I am saying is that, based on stats alone (given that I am unbiased towards both netminders), I think that Toivonen is putting up very good numbers in a more difficult situation than Miller. Any time your team is a +24 in goals for vs against, it makes it a bit easier on a goalie.

Moskau, again, I'm not slighting Ryan Miller here. I'm not using any card subliminally. However, the fact that the other Providence netminders have a GAA of over 4.00 and Tom Askey's is under 2.00 certainly says something, doesn't it? Unless, of course, you are going to tell me that Tom Askey is among the elite of AHL netminders?

I did see the stat that Providence has scored virtually the same amount of goals per game than Rochester. That being said, are you negating the fact that the other Providence netminders are letting in 4+ goals per game. I'm sorry, but I'm really don't feel like spending the time to see how much goal support Toivonen gets vs the backups, but I'd be willing to bet that Toivonen gets less goal support than the backups per game.

Again, I don't necessarily think that Toivonen is better than Miller. All I am saying is that an argument can clearly be made for Toivonen to have been selected over Miller. You can't honestly, impartially tell me that the case can't be made.

BTW, if you do the math, Miller is making an average of 29 saves per night (1071 saves / 37 games played = 28.94 saves per game). From that, Miller roughly faces 31 shots per game (28.94 saves + 2.17 goals allowed per game). Sorry, but that is a far cry from 35-44 per game.

I guess, one of the things that I personally enjoy is the fact that I am a huge hockey fan and, unless a specific player is involved, I am completely unbiased about all of the teams.

BTW, I must add that I am truly enjoying having intelligent hockey discussions with people who actually have a clue and back up their statements. I've never said that my opinions are correct and my mind is certainly open to changing those opinions with valid arguments! Keep it up, folks!

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Old
01-27-2005, 06:11 PM
  #36
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ToivOnen.

Hey Sabresfan, look at Providence's defence. That is why Toivonen is so valuable and important to Providence.

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01-27-2005, 06:24 PM
  #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pelts35.com
Moskau, again, I'm not slighting Ryan Miller here. I'm not using any card subliminally. However, the fact that the other Providence netminders have a GAA of over 4.00 and Tom Askey's is under 2.00 certainly says something, doesn't it? Unless, of course, you are going to tell me that Tom Askey is among the elite of AHL netminders?

I did see the stat that Providence has scored virtually the same amount of goals per game than Rochester. That being said, are you negating the fact that the other Providence netminders are letting in 4+ goals per game. I'm sorry, but I'm really don't feel like spending the time to see how much goal support Toivonen gets vs the backups, but I'd be willing to bet that Toivonen gets less goal support than the backups per game.

Again, I don't necessarily think that Toivonen is better than Miller. All I am saying is that an argument can clearly be made for Toivonen to have been selected over Miller. You can't honestly, impartially tell me that the case can't be made.

BTW, if you do the math, Miller is making an average of 29 saves per night (1071 saves / 37 games played = 28.94 saves per game). From that, Miller roughly faces 31 shots per game (28.94 saves + 2.17 goals allowed per game). Sorry, but that is a far cry from 35-44 per game.
I'm saying that Askey is much better than Providence's backups, they face the same number of shots basically. That's all.

As for the shots, I said that lately he has been facing those kind of numbers.

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Old
01-27-2005, 07:16 PM
  #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 19bruins19
ToivOnen.

Hey Sabresfan, look at Providence's defence. That is why Toivonen is so valuable and important to Providence.
so true...

a bunch of pylon AHL veterans back there

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Old
01-27-2005, 07:40 PM
  #39
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Originally Posted by 19bruins19
Hey Sabresfan, look at Providence's defence. That is why Toivonen is so valuable and important to Providence.
Chicago isn't exactly boasting a star-studded lineup back there either. Lehtonen has carried the Wolves on his shoulders.

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01-27-2005, 08:18 PM
  #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Moskau
I'm saying that Askey is much better than Providence's backups, they face the same number of shots basically. That's all.

As for the shots, I said that lately he has been facing those kind of numbers.
Not sure if I agree with you about Askey being better than Cody Rudkowsky. Askey has been a competant backup (at best) for Rochester playing the majority of his games against the bottom of the league (Albany, Utah, Cincy, Cleveland). Rudkowsky is a competant backup playing for a team that isn't as good, so he doesn't get the benefit of as many weak starts as Askey does.

TMFalcon,

So, you are saying that Lehtonen is the reason why the team is 25-15-4-1 this season? I guess it doesn't have anything to do with the 135 goals (12 more than Rochester) they have scored, huh? J.P. Vigier and his 43 points in 45 games may have something different to say about that. Their 7th ranked PP may also have something to say about that as well. I'm also guessing that All-Star Travis Roche and his +13 might beg to differ too.

Also, I guess that you can't then BLAME Lehtonen for the Wolves having the 6th worse PK in the league either, right?

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Old
01-27-2005, 09:31 PM
  #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pelts35.com
Not sure if I agree with you about Askey being better than Cody Rudkowsky. Askey has been a competant backup (at best) for Rochester playing the majority of his games against the bottom of the league (Albany, Utah, Cincy, Cleveland). Rudkowsky is a competant backup playing for a team that isn't as good, so he doesn't get the benefit of as many weak starts as Askey does.
Come on. Rudkowsky doesn't approach Askey. Rudkowsky spent the majority of last season in the ECHL and part of this season there. He doesn't have anywhere near the amount of games played in the AHL. Askey has been phenomenal this season. Askey isn't a competent backup, he's a great backup and loved in Rochester. Even comparing the two is almost laughable.

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01-28-2005, 08:59 AM
  #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sabrefan27
Come on. Rudkowsky doesn't approach Askey. Rudkowsky spent the majority of last season in the ECHL and part of this season there. He doesn't have anywhere near the amount of games played in the AHL. Askey has been phenomenal this season. Askey isn't a competent backup, he's a great backup and loved in Rochester. Even comparing the two is almost laughable.
Askey is a great backup? Sure, he's done well in the 9 starts he has had against the Utah's, Albany's, etc of the league. Prior to the last two years (21 games last season, again mostly against the bottom-tiered teams), his numbers have been average at best (over 2.50 GAA and under .900 save %age for his career).

Rudkowsky doesn't get the benefit of the "garbage" games as much since, relatively speaking the easier games for Rochester are not as easy for Providence given that Rochester is a better team.

If you want me to say that Askey is better than Rudkowsky, ok, he's better.. However, saying that comparing the two is almost laughable is going a bit too far.

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01-28-2005, 12:30 PM
  #43
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I think everyone knows who Ryan Miller....

Hell he's been a "top" prospect for what...... 7 years now???

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01-28-2005, 02:19 PM
  #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pelts35.com
Askey is a great backup? Sure, he's done well in the 9 starts he has had against the Utah's, Albany's, etc of the league. Prior to the last two years (21 games last season, again mostly against the bottom-tiered teams), his numbers have been average at best (over 2.50 GAA and under .900 save %age for his career).

Rudkowsky doesn't get the benefit of the "garbage" games as much since, relatively speaking the easier games for Rochester are not as easy for Providence given that Rochester is a better team.

If you want me to say that Askey is better than Rudkowsky, ok, he's better.. However, saying that comparing the two is almost laughable is going a bit too far.
No it's not. You have proved to me here you know nothing of the Amerks players. So just throwing some stats at me doesn't prove anything. Go into the Amerks board and start claiming Askey is an average backup. See what kind of responses you get. You wouldn't get those from some average backup goalie.

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01-28-2005, 03:05 PM
  #45
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Originally Posted by sabrefan27
No it's not. You have proved to me here you know nothing of the Amerks players. So just throwing some stats at me doesn't prove anything. Go into the Amerks board and start claiming Askey is an average backup. See what kind of responses you get. You wouldn't get those from some average backup goalie.
Sorry, I'm just an unbiased fan that looks at stats. Sorry if an unbiased opinion based on FACTS bothers you. Stats don't lie. Stats don't have fan bias built into them. I'm sorry that Askey has started 9 games against the bottom of the AHL, but that's the truth.

Quite frankly, I really don't care what Amerks fans think of him. Of course none of them are going to say that he is an average backup. They, like you, will get their back up and say that he is

You don't like the word average? Fine. He is a competant, adequte, decent backup. However, if Ryan Miller gets injured (and I certainly hope that he doesn't), the Amerks season will go south pretty quick if they are going to rely on Tom Askey to be their starter.

Now, on the other hand if...

Philadelphia lost Niittymaki they wouldn't be much worse for wear because they have Neil Little. The same could be said for Manchester with Adam Hauser, Hartford with Steve Valiquette, Norfolk with Craig Anderson, Manitoba with Wade Flaherty, and St. John's with J-S Aubin.

Sorry, but Tom Askey is an average AHL netminder, no more and no less.

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01-28-2005, 03:10 PM
  #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pelts35.com
Sorry, I'm just an unbiased fan that looks at stats. Sorry if an unbiased opinion based on FACTS bothers you. Stats don't lie. Stats don't have fan bias built into them. I'm sorry that Askey has started 9 games against the bottom of the AHL, but that's the truth.

Quite frankly, I really don't care what Amerks fans think of him. Of course none of them are going to say that he is an average backup. They, like you, will get their back up and say that he is

You don't like the word average? Fine. He is a competant, adequte, decent backup. However, if Ryan Miller gets injured (and I certainly hope that he doesn't), the Amerks season will go south pretty quick if they are going to rely on Tom Askey to be their starter.

Now, on the other hand if...

Philadelphia lost Niittymaki they wouldn't be much worse for wear because they have Neil Little. The same could be said for Manchester with Adam Hauser, Hartford with Steve Valiquette, Norfolk with Craig Anderson, Manitoba with Wade Flaherty, and St. John's with J-S Aubin.

Sorry, but Tom Askey is an average AHL netminder, no more and no less.
You're right, and I never claimed otherwise. I said for a backup, he's great. He never complains, sits for weeks without playing, and then comes in and looks in mid-season form.

The Amerks would be in trouble. That's why I think Miller is the MVP. He's the reason the Amerks are where they are. Toivonen has been good, but his team is just an average team. And don't give me that Miller has a much betterr team in front of him. They have abandoned him and played like crap for a large majority of the Amerks recent success.

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01-28-2005, 03:14 PM
  #47
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Originally Posted by pelts35.com
Sorry, I'm just an unbiased fan that looks at stats. Sorry if an unbiased opinion based on FACTS bothers you. Stats don't lie.
Excuse me? You're not serious are you?

"Statistics are used by many just as a drunk uses a lamp post - more for support than enlightenment”

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01-28-2005, 03:17 PM
  #48
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Originally Posted by MLH
Excuse me? You're not serious are you?

"Statistics are used by many just as a drunk uses a lamp post - more for support than enlightenment”
Whatever you say. All an unbiased fan has to rely on is the hard, cold facts that are statistics. If you have something else to base an opinion on when all that is available is box scores and someone's biased game summary reports, please let me know.

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01-28-2005, 03:27 PM
  #49
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Originally Posted by pelts35.com
Whatever you say. All an unbiased fan has to rely on is the hard, cold facts that are statistics. If you have something else to base an opinion on when all that is available is box scores and someone's biased game summary reports, please let me know.
Wow. I guess an unbiased fan has no other choice but to declare that LaBarbera is the best goalie in the AHL, and for that matter AHL history.

Relying on stats is foolish.

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01-28-2005, 03:43 PM
  #50
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Originally Posted by MLH
Wow. I guess an unbiased fan has no other choice but to declare that LaBarbera is the best goalie in the AHL, and for that matter AHL history.

Relying on stats is foolish.
Why do you have to take it a step too far? LaBarbera doesn't have the best career stats overall, so why would you even make that comment?

So the fact that he has a GAA of 1.90 and a save %age of .929 (not to mention his 20-6-1-4 record) is meaningless? With your logic, I guess Ryan Miller can't be all that good either since, aside from the two games that I saw him play earlier in the month, all I can base my opinion on are his stats?

I'm not saying he is the best goalie in the AHL (let alone in AHL history). I wasn't involved in the voting process that named him MVP last season. Further, I wasn't involved in the decision that had him named to the All-Star game this season either.

How is relying on stats foolish? What other tool do I have to base opinions other than stats? Should I read the biased game summaries on team's websites? Should I listen to the biased webcasts where the home announcers are in shock whenever their hometeam player is called for a penalty, but then cries bloody murder when a hometeam player is barely touched? Should I read what the biased hometeam fans have to say on internet discussion boards?

Sorry, my friend, but stats tell the unbiased story of what is going on. Is it a coincidence that Bingo, Manchester, Milwaukee, Chicago and Manitoba have scored the most PP goals and are all having good seasons? Is it a coincidence that Hartford, Manchester, Rochester, Manitoba and Norfolk are the top 5 in goals against per game and are having good seasons? I could go on and on.

This is going to be my last post on this topic. I'm really sorry if you don't agree with me on this, but I'm not going to go through all of the stats to prove my point that stats tell the unbiased story of the season.

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