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Planet USA All-Star Team Announced

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Old
01-28-2005, 10:21 PM
  #51
sabrefan27
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Now Miller shuts out the high-flying Senators, making several amazing saves in the process. Toivonen got lit up again.

What else does he need to do to prove to people he's the top goalie so far?

Oh yeah for pelts. You love your statistics.

Toivonen: 17-13-3...4 SO...2.18 GAA....928%

Miller: 25-11-2...6 SO...2.11 GAA....933%


Last edited by sabrefan27: 01-28-2005 at 10:55 PM.
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01-28-2005, 11:32 PM
  #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sabrefan27
Now Miller shuts out the high-flying Senators, making several amazing saves in the process. Toivonen got lit up again.

What else does he need to do to prove to people he's the top goalie so far?

Oh yeah for pelts. You love your statistics.

Toivonen: 17-13-3...4 SO...2.18 GAA....928%

Miller: 25-11-2...6 SO...2.11 GAA....933%
How many times has Toivonen got lit up? twice?

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01-28-2005, 11:35 PM
  #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sevenSteen
How many times has Toivonen got lit up? twice?
I don't know. I just said again because he didn't do so hot in a game recently as well.

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01-28-2005, 11:37 PM
  #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sabrefan27
Now Miller shuts out the high-flying Senators, making several amazing saves in the process.
Once again, get your facts straight. You just posted in the Sens board about today's game.
Miller made 2 or 3 amazing saves.
http://www.hfboards.com/showthread.php?t=126042

Since when has 2 or 3 amazing saves become several amazing saves?

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01-28-2005, 11:43 PM
  #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sevenSteen
Once again, get your facts straight. You just posted in the Sens board about today's game.
Miller made 2 or 3 amazing saves.
http://www.hfboards.com/showthread.php?t=126042

Since when has 2 or 3 amazing saves become several amazing saves?
LOL, sorry. You want to play semantics, go ahead.

What is "several" to you? Maybe 2 or 3 is "several" to me. The fact is he just shut out the hottest team in the league, making many great saves.

If you want to argue the real issue, go ahead. But if you want to be a stickler for stupid things, I'll pass.

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01-28-2005, 11:57 PM
  #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sabrefan27
LOL, sorry. You want to play semantics, go ahead.

If you want to argue the real issue, go ahead. But if you want to be a stickler for stupid things, I'll pass.
Toivonen is a full 4 years younger than Miller. If the AHL wanted to showcase youth like they seemed to do in announcing the all-star teams, Toivonen should have been in ahead of Miller, simple as that. Miller turns 25 years old this year, for heavens sake. If they wanted to name the best statistical players, they would have picked AHL veterans that deserve to be there, based on their point production. Naming Miller over Toivonen, especially with the defense that Hannu has in front of him, is outrageous.

Let me guess.... you think Miller will be a better NHL goalie than Toivonen?

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01-29-2005, 12:06 AM
  #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sevenSteen
Toivonen is a full 4 years younger than Miller. If the AHL wanted to showcase youth like they seemed to do in announcing the all-star teams, Toivonen should have been in ahead of Miller, simple as that. Miller turns 25 years old this year, for heavens sake. If they wanted to name the best statistical players, they would have picked AHL veterans that deserve to be there, based on their point production. Naming Miller over Toivonen, especially with the defense that Hannu has in front of him, is outrageous.

Let me guess.... you think Miller will be a better NHL goalie than Toivonen?
What does age have anything to do here? Or who will end up better in 10 years? I'm talking about this season. That's the debate.

Miller has had a better season so far. Miller is still considered a prospect. Just because he's older than Toivonen doesn't mean Miller doesn't deserve to go. He's better in every statistical category.

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01-29-2005, 12:13 AM
  #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sabrefan27
What does age have anything to do here? Or who will end up better in 10 years? I'm talking about this season. That's the debate.

Miller has had a better season so far. Miller is still considered a prospect. Just because he's older than Toivonen doesn't mean Miller doesn't deserve to go. He's better in every statistical category.
He's better statistically NOW, and that's fine if how AHL players are selected for the all-star team. However, players are generally picked, based on their NHL potential.

Miller has played in the NHL, therefore he shouldn't be considered a prospect. Just a player that isn't good enough for the NHL, at the age where most NHL calibre goalies have already settled in the NHL.

And you seemed to have sidestepped my question.... who do you think will be the better NHL goalie?

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01-29-2005, 12:21 AM
  #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sevenSteen
He's better statistically NOW, and that's fine if how AHL players are selected for the all-star team. However, players are generally picked, based on their NHL potential.

Miller has played in the NHL, therefore he shouldn't be considered a prospect. Just a player that isn't good enough for the NHL, at the age where most NHL calibre goalies have already settled in the NHL.

And you seemed to have sidestepped my question.... who do you think will be the better NHL goalie?
I didn't side step anything. I don't know who will be better. Toivonen has a higher ceiling and he's likely to have the better career. But Miller has had his breakthrough year and if there was an NHL season, you can be sure he'd be the starter for Buffalo.

You're about the only one who has claimed Miller isn't a prospect.

Just admit he's better this season. That's all I've been saying all along. And it's true. Next year, last year or 10 years from now means nothing in what I was originally debating about. You brought it in to sidestep the fact that Miller is having a better season.

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01-29-2005, 12:24 AM
  #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sabrefan27
I didn't side step anything. I don't know who will be better. Toivonen has a higher ceiling and he's likely to have the better career. But Miller has had his breakthrough year and if there was an NHL season, you can be sure he'd be the starter for Buffalo.

You brought it in to sidestep the fact that Miller is having a better season.
Noronen, Biron.... where are they? Traded?

Miller and Toivonen are having similar seasons, no doubt about that. However, Toivonen is 4 years younger and is playing behind a crappy defense.

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01-29-2005, 12:31 AM
  #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sevenSteen
Noronen, Biron.... where are they? Traded?

Miller and Toivonen are having similar seasons, no doubt about that. However, Toivonen is 4 years younger and is playing behind a crappy defense.
I would assume one would be traded away.

Again, you bring age in. Rochester and Providence allow virtually the same shots per game, so they face similar rubber. How good quality thos shots are for Providence, I don't know.

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01-29-2005, 01:21 AM
  #62
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It's funny that he leads the league in saves, wins, and shutouts with a great GAA and SP% yet people try and tarnish his play because the amount of amazing saves might have only been 3 tonight instead of 5.

I can't even believe that was posted.

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01-29-2005, 02:27 AM
  #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MLH
It's funny that he leads the league in saves, wins, and shutouts with a great GAA and SP% yet people try and tarnish his play because the amount of amazing saves might have only been 3 tonight instead of 5.

I can't even believe that was posted.
Oh c'mon, its message board logic... Anyways, since one guy knows more about Toivonen, he is clearly better, right? Same goes for Miller.

Oh yah, since when have most NHL goalies settled into the NHL by their 25th birthday? There are countless late-bloomers (Kippersoff, Hasek) who just began to start when they hit their later 20s. Its only freaks like Brodeur and Roy who can start and be successful from an early age .

Anyways, their both good goalies, and both still prospects. Im sure you guys can continue on, but why not save hfboards some bandwidth?

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01-29-2005, 05:39 AM
  #64
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I'm not at all interested in who gets bragging rights for having the better prospect here, even being a Sabres and Amerks fan. However, some of the arguments used against Miller are quite ridiculous and I feel I should chime in.

It seems people hold it against him that his team is having more success than others. Isn't some credit for a team's success traditionally given to the goaltender? His team is currently 12th in goals forced and 3rd in goals allowed. The Amerks aren't exactly shooting out their opponents' lights. They are, by and large, winning very close games. Most of the credit for those close wins goes to Ryan Miller.

On paper, Rochester's skaters are a good deal better than what Toivonen has in front of him. However, they haven't played to those expectations by any means. As Amerks fans, we're forced to wonder how in the world we have as good a record as we do--except we don't; we know it is because of Miller.

It is nothing but ironic the way Askey was used in this thread;

1. The fact his (Askey's) stats are better than Providence's back-ups proves Miller isn't having as good a season as Toivonen, because even Rochester's back-up can put up good numbers, right?

2. However, the fact that Askey plays only bottom teams while Providence's back-ups don't have that luxury is supposed to prove how much better they are than him, or at least how he isn't better than them. Thus this point is supposed to prove point 1,

Point 2 is supposed to support point 1--Rochester obviously must be so much better if this "average" goaltender can put up such good stats playing for them, thus explaining how Miller's stats are so good playing for the same team--but it actually offers great contradictory evidence.

All a devil's advocate need say is the following: So, if Askey only plays the bottom teams of the league, wouldn't that explain at least part of his good numbers?

Then to alter slightly: Isn't it then reasonable to assume that if Askey played more games against better teams he would have worse numbers while Miller, who would get to play those games against bottom teams, would have even better stats?

Simply put, Askey's stats are either so good because he plays for an amazing hockey powerhouse or because he plays against the weaker teams of the league. The truth is somewhere in between there, leaning heavily towards the latter (not forgetting that he really is one of the better AHL back-ups around). You can't use his stats both ways while trying to ultimately prove the same point. This is a great example of how stats can be manipulated.

All that needs be said is that both Rochester and Providence are getting their wins through their goaltenders. From there everyone can decide just how they wish to weigh these wins versus how good the goalie's team is.

Here's a secret: the stats don't matter much at all here. This argument should be settled by critiquing goaltending performances and their results. I don't qualify to judge as I haven't seen enough Providence games. However, I've seen enough Amerks games to know Miller deserves to be selected as an all-star. No team gets such a record without stellar goaltending when they aren't even top 10 in the league in scoring.

Who is going to be the better player in the NHL? This is utterly irrelevant as the argument was mostly over who is having the better season and partially over who deserved to get selected. It was not over who will be the better NHL goalie.

Who should have been picked? Well, the player who is having the better season should have been picked.

I say that's Miller, but it is certainly open for debate. Just base the debate on performances and not "how great" Rochester is or the stats of their back-up.

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Old
01-29-2005, 05:53 AM
  #65
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Does this spell the end for Marty Beer On???


:mad:

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01-29-2005, 09:24 AM
  #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sabrefan27
Now Miller shuts out the high-flying Senators, making several amazing saves in the process. Toivonen got lit up again.

What else does he need to do to prove to people he's the top goalie so far?

Oh yeah for pelts. You love your statistics.

Toivonen: 17-13-3...4 SO...2.18 GAA....928%

Miller: 25-11-2...6 SO...2.11 GAA....933%
What about almost all the other games where Toivonen played amazing? Sure, he has had a couple of stinkers, but put Miller behind the P-Bruins defence for a season.

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01-29-2005, 12:04 PM
  #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Unbiased Canadian
Congrats to Mikko Koivu, one of the most under-rated prospects in the game.

Everyone says he has no offensive upside etc.....prove em wrong Mikko. has one of the top PPG among rookies this year.





He's kinda been lost in the mix when it comes to prospect talk too...which is alright. So far he sounds like he's the real deal, can't wait til the AHL allstar weekend to check him out...

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01-29-2005, 12:44 PM
  #68
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Originally Posted by 19bruins19
What about almost all the other games where Toivonen played amazing? Sure, he has had a couple of stinkers, but put Miller behind the P-Bruins defence for a season.
What a tired and old argument. You know you're wrong, so you bring this in. Guess what, this doesn't apply. It's who's having a better season. Clearly Miller is.

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01-29-2005, 02:41 PM
  #69
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Originally Posted by sabrefan27
What a tired and old argument. You know you're wrong, so you bring this in. Guess what, this doesn't apply. It's who's having a better season. Clearly Miller is.
Miller has been better, no argument here, but to say that toivenen shouldn't be on the all-star roster is stupid. Niity shouldn't be on there. Niity is great and all, but come on, he's been average compared to hannu.

Also, miller's had a great season, i only put lehts ahead. Potential and age whatever don't matter to me in terms of better season, but all in all, its not like miller is exactly blowign toivenen off the ice with his better play. Toivenen has been great in general and showing a few horrible games isn't going to mean anything. Over the course of the season toivenen has shown remarkable poise and is clearly one of the best goalies in the AHL and best goalie prospects in the world.

All in all toivenen should be on the all-star roster and miller deserves the nod as well, they are both have been great for their respective team and miller is only slighty better in this season.

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01-29-2005, 02:47 PM
  #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bruins4777
Miller has been better, no argument here, but to say that toivenen shouldn't be on the all-star roster is stupid. Niity shouldn't be on there. Niity is great and all, but come on, he's been average compared to hannu.
Personally, I thought Toivonen deserved to be there over Nittymaki. But what can you do?

The bottom line in this whole thing, they're both great. Both having great seasons. An argument can be made for either, but as an Amerk fan and as someone who has witnessed watching Miller around 20 times this season, I obviously think he's been slightly better.

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01-29-2005, 02:51 PM
  #71
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Well you've seen miller more than i've seen hannu this season. I do agree with the one post above about the arguments against miller are poor. I could make a case about hannu being better than miller thus far this season, you would have to mention the REMARKABLE poise he's shown. His incredible 12 game streak of utter dominance, and how he's COME BACK FROM A CONCUSSION and still played quite remarkable and kept the p-bruins in the playoff hunt(a place they don't belong).

Honestly if you match up talent for talent p-bruins vs. rochester i think it would be awful close. I mean the bruins have bergy, hilbert, and boyes, while the amerks have vanek, jillson and others. I'd give the edge to the amerks cause their d is considerably better, but in general its not like miller hasn't faced a good amount of quality shots as well.

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01-29-2005, 03:53 PM
  #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bruins4777
Miller has been better, no argument here, but to say that toivenen shouldn't be on the all-star roster is stupid. Niity shouldn't be on there. Niity is great and all, but come on, he's been average compared to hannu.
Saying that Niittymaki shouldn't be on there is really showing your obvious Bruin bias. How can you say that Nittymaki has been average compared to Toivonen when they have comparable stats?

The guy that doesn't belong there is Lehtonen based on the numbers, but he was voted as the starter.

Rob Paxon,

All I'm trying to say about Tom Askey is that he is an adequate backup netminder, no better and no worse. His numbers are what they are because he plays for a first place team and gets 9 starts against the dregs of the AHL.

Sabresfan27,

Can I now use the same argument you made that Miller's numbers would be better had it not be for his first 5 starts now that Toivonen had a clunker?

Bottom line here is that both Toivonen and Miller are both very good netminders. Both are worthy of being selected to the All-Star team, but only one could be.

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01-29-2005, 04:01 PM
  #73
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Originally Posted by pelts35.com
Saying that Niittymaki shouldn't be on there is really showing your obvious Bruin bias. How can you say that Nittymaki has been average compared to Toivonen when they have comparable stats?

The guy that doesn't belong there is Lehtonen based on the numbers, but he was voted as the starter.

Bottom line here is that both Toivonen and Miller are both very good netminders. Both are worthy of being selected to the All-Star team, but only one could be.
errrr...no. I'm a bruins fan of course, but its not like i'm not a nitty fan. I've seen niity more than i've seen hannu, but i've simply been more impressed with hannu than niity, its that simple. Its so hard to judge goaltending on numbers. To me, thats a ridiculous idea.

Niity has played on a STACKED philly team, which offense and defense wise is far above providence. Niity hasn't had to steal games the way lehts or hannu have had too, or even miller for that matter. Miller deserves to be there thats easy, he's been a top 5 player for his team. Hannu deserves to be there, providence would be a high scoring team that can't win cause of no goaltending. Lehtonen is the MVP of the season thus far so he's a shoe in. Niity deserves a nod for great goaltending, but so far he's hardly been dominant in teh terms of hannu, miller, and lehtonen.

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01-29-2005, 04:27 PM
  #74
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Originally Posted by pelts35.com
Bottom line here is that both Toivonen and Miller are both very good netminders. Both are worthy of being selected to the All-Star team, but only one could be.
They may both be "worthy", but they're not equally worthy. Had Miller not made the All-Star team it would have been a joke, while Toivonen wasn't merely a snub based on fans voting in the starter. Toivonen has been one of the best few goalies in his conference, while Miller has been a league MVP caliber player.

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01-29-2005, 04:32 PM
  #75
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Originally Posted by bruins4777
errrr...no. I'm a bruins fan of course, but its not like i'm not a nitty fan. I've seen niity more than i've seen hannu, but i've simply been more impressed with hannu than niity, its that simple. Its so hard to judge goaltending on numbers. To me, thats a ridiculous idea.

Niity has played on a STACKED philly team, which offense and defense wise is far above providence. Niity hasn't had to steal games the way lehts or hannu have had too, or even miller for that matter. Miller deserves to be there thats easy, he's been a top 5 player for his team. Hannu deserves to be there, providence would be a high scoring team that can't win cause of no goaltending. Lehtonen is the MVP of the season thus far so he's a shoe in. Niity deserves a nod for great goaltending, but so far he's hardly been dominant in teh terms of hannu, miller, and lehtonen.
A stacked Philly team? Since the streak, the Phantoms have had 3 of their defensemen on IR and are relying on their 7th dman and ECHLers. Despite that, his GAA is still under 2.00.

So, what you are saying is the fact that the Phantoms are in 2nd place in their division has nothing to do with Niittymaki's play? Nittymaki hasn't stolen any games for the Phantoms this season? So, I guess all of his victories were by 3 and 4 goal margins? Sorry, but any guy that has a GAA under 2.00 and a save %age over .920 has to be a little dominant, doesn't he?

Lehtonen is the MVP of the first half per the Hockey News, who has a blatant love affair with him. The fact that he plays in a market with a large fan base like Chicago certainly played into the fact that the was voted the starting netminder.

Nittymaki certainly deserves to have been selected to the team.


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