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Bobby Hull vs Mike Bossy - Better Goal Scorer?

View Poll Results: better scorer?
Bobby Hull 52 64.20%
Mike Bossy 24 29.63%
Id like to be your drinkin' buddy! 5 6.17%
Voters: 81. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
09-18-2012, 11:07 AM
  #26
Johnny Engine
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Quote:
Originally Posted by redbull View Post
bossy averaged 61 goals per 80 games over ten years. 61 is much more than 50.

of course there would be decline, but even in his last session that he played in constant pain, he was on a 48 goal pace.

he scored the type of goals that are impossible to defend, hence, the consistency at all levels, from junior to international.

I have little doubt Bossy would have scored a lot of goals for the next ten, if he was remotely healthy. not unlike Mario would have, injury aside. Of course, we will never know.

doesn't change the fact that bobby hull was probably the better player and goal scorer though.
For an elite goal-scorer, 61 isn't effectively "much more than 50" when it comes to year in, year out performance. No one sensible would say that Bossy had an "off year" in 1980, when he scored 51 goals, down from 69 the year before, or that Gretzky had a poor goal-scoring year in 1986, when he went from 73 down to 52. When it comes to guys who take 250+ shots in a season and score on 50+ of them, you're going to have wild swings in shooting percentage, in either direction. It's not like a 20 goal scorer who doesn't score at all the next season.

What Bossy did was score 51 or more goals every year in his prime, so yes, I would describe that as a run of 50 goal seasons. That's what one could expect from Bossy every year.

Semantics aside, you still haven't addressed the logical gap in "if he didn't get hurt when he did, he would have stood in the slot getting mounds of physical abuse heaped on him for years and it would have had no effect on him."

The statement that garbage goals are "impossible to defend" was also quite strange.

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Old
09-18-2012, 01:21 PM
  #27
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I can't believe people are holding against Bossy that he only lead the league in goals twice. That's what happens when Gretzky is your competition! Had Hull played in the 80s, I daresay he'd be right up there with the rest of them... after Wayne.

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09-18-2012, 01:32 PM
  #28
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Both were great but I'd go with Bossy. Hull was more about the big shot while Bossy had an uncanny ability to always find an opening.

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09-18-2012, 01:46 PM
  #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sentinel View Post
I can't believe people are holding against Bossy that he only lead the league in goals twice. That's what happens when Gretzky is your competition! Had Hull played in the 80s, I daresay he'd be right up there with the rest of them... after Wayne.
Bossy only lost one retro-Richard to Gretzky, so it's not taking Gretzky away would give him anywhere near Hull-esque dominance, anyway. He still wouldn't have led the league as often or dominated as thoroughly as Hull did.

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09-18-2012, 02:08 PM
  #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sentinel View Post
I can't believe people are holding against Bossy that he only lead the league in goals twice. That's what happens when Gretzky is your competition! Had Hull played in the 80s, I daresay he'd be right up there with the rest of them... after Wayne.
Goal Scoring Finishes: Mike Bossy (if Gretzky, Kurri, and Anderson are removed) vs. Bobby Hull (NHL only)

Bossy: 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 2, 2, 4, 5
Hull: 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 2, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6


Removing same finishes...
Bossy: nothing
Hull: 1, 1, 3, 6

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Old
09-18-2012, 03:46 PM
  #31
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Hull for me.
But it is close

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Old
09-18-2012, 05:10 PM
  #32
tony d
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Really liked Bossy as a goal scorer but the answer here is Hull.

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09-18-2012, 05:23 PM
  #33
TheDevilMadeMe
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Hull can be overrated if you look at the percentage wins of his goal titles, since there really weren't any other all-time great goal scorers in their primes in the mid 60s. But he's still the right answer here IMO

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09-18-2012, 05:26 PM
  #34
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Grandpa told me Bobby Hull no contest, he's the only guy I know old enough to have watched them both.

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09-18-2012, 07:07 PM
  #35
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I could see comparing Bossy to Andy Bathgate or Frank Mahovlich, but to Bobby Hull? Either Im missing something or the questions framed entirely around stats no?

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09-18-2012, 11:36 PM
  #36
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Bobby Hull was clearly the better goal scorer. Bossy is being put on a level that he doesn't really belong. If one can't recognize that, I doubt they are going to listen to the logical arguments as to why he wasn't as great as players like Bobby Hull.

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09-19-2012, 12:36 AM
  #37
redbull
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnny Engine View Post
For an elite goal-scorer, 61 isn't effectively "much more than 50" when it comes to year in, year out performance. No one sensible would say that Bossy had an "off year" in 1980, when he scored 51 goals, down from 69 the year before, or that Gretzky had a poor goal-scoring year in 1986, when he went from 73 down to 52. When it comes to guys who take 250+ shots in a season and score on 50+ of them, you're going to have wild swings in shooting percentage, in either direction. It's not like a 20 goal scorer who doesn't score at all the next season.

What Bossy did was score 51 or more goals every year in his prime, so yes, I would describe that as a run of 50 goal seasons. That's what one could expect from Bossy every year.

Semantics aside, you still haven't addressed the logical gap in "if he didn't get hurt when he did, he would have stood in the slot getting mounds of physical abuse heaped on him for years and it would have had no effect on him."

The statement that garbage goals are "impossible to defend" was also quite strange.
I wouldn't call them garbage goals like Ryan Smyth scores, from scrambles,wrap arounds, driving hard to the net with the puck - Bossy never scored those goals.

But from hovering around the slot, hanging around the net and the lightning quick release - that is unstoppable. Bossy played at a time when it was perfectly legal to cross-check, hold, slash a player in front of the net, those plays are no longer allowed, not without a penalty.

Maybe there's some truth that the abuse in front of the net led to his injuries, but it's also true that he scored more than enough goals in other ways.

Bottom line, Bossy showed zero evidence of slowing down his pace so it's kind of unfair to suggest hewouldhave tailed off just because others of that era did.

Why does Mario get the benefit of being able to maintain whatever pace as he aged? Both are uncertain. Neither showed evidence of deteriorating play or production.

I'm not saying he would have scored 50+ for another ten years, but I could definitely see some 50, some 40+ and maybe a couple of 30+.

Bossy always indicated he wanted to retire young, he said so several times when playing and wrote about it in his book.

His contributions and accomplishments often get overlooked by some, pointing to Trottier or the team or the era - and he's not Bobby Hull, but I don't think it's fair to diminish his accomplishments on the assumption he would have tailed off if he wasn't hurt.

One might have said the same about Lidstrom, Selanne, Recchi, Chelios, years prior.

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09-19-2012, 01:21 AM
  #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Czech Your Math View Post
Bobby Hull was clearly the better goal scorer. Bossy is being put on a level that he doesn't really belong. If one can't recognize that, I doubt they are going to listen to the logical arguments as to why he wasn't as great as players like Bobby Hull.
.... obviously, Bossy was great. But ya, he was a different creature from the likes of a Bobby Hull. Lacked the physicality. Id say he was more an Andy Bathgate type if I had to compare him to anyone prior to his time. Apparently CYM he works now as a DJ for CKOI or CHOM FM outta Montreal. Electric Lunch Hour stuff. Bit of a Hippy huh? Allman Brothers n' whatnot.

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09-19-2012, 10:27 AM
  #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RabbinsDuck View Post
Brett Hull vs. Mike Bossy is a better poll than Bossy vs, the elder Hull.
^^this^^

Bobby was better than both... not by a lot, though.

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Old
09-19-2012, 12:44 PM
  #40
Wrigley
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Hull

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Old
09-19-2012, 02:10 PM
  #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by redbull View Post
I wouldn't call them garbage goals like Ryan Smyth scores, from scrambles,wrap arounds, driving hard to the net with the puck - Bossy never scored those goals.

But from hovering around the slot, hanging around the net and the lightning quick release - that is unstoppable. Bossy played at a time when it was perfectly legal to cross-check, hold, slash a player in front of the net, those plays are no longer allowed, not without a penalty.

Maybe there's some truth that the abuse in front of the net led to his injuries, but it's also true that he scored more than enough goals in other ways.

Bottom line, Bossy showed zero evidence of slowing down his pace so it's kind of unfair to suggest hewouldhave tailed off just because others of that era did.

Why does Mario get the benefit of being able to maintain whatever pace as he aged? Both are uncertain. Neither showed evidence of deteriorating play or production.

I'm not saying he would have scored 50+ for another ten years, but I could definitely see some 50, some 40+ and maybe a couple of 30+.

Bossy always indicated he wanted to retire young, he said so several times when playing and wrote about it in his book.

His contributions and accomplishments often get overlooked by some, pointing to Trottier or the team or the era - and he's not Bobby Hull, but I don't think it's fair to diminish his accomplishments on the assumption he would have tailed off if he wasn't hurt.

One might have said the same about Lidstrom, Selanne, Recchi, Chelios, years prior.
no, because aside from Chelios, their longevity was not unprecedented for their era.

Bossy simply wasn't going to play ten more seasons, or anything close to that.

Projecting with Lemieux is much eaasier, because he actually did play at those ages; he just had a lot of shortened seasons. But it's much easier to discuss what he would have done in a full season at age 35, 36, 37 than doing the same for Bossy; surely you understand why.

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09-20-2012, 02:04 PM
  #42
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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
Bossy simply wasn't going to play ten more seasons, or anything close to that.

Projecting with Lemieux is much eaasier, because he actually did play at those ages; he just had a lot of shortened seasons. But it's much easier to discuss what he would have done in a full season at age 35, 36, 37 than doing the same for Bossy; surely you understand why.
I'll concede that Bossy wouldn't have played another ten years. I don't think he had the desire to (as he indicated) and given the long playoffs & abuse on the five playoff runs, that crop of player was pretty beaten down, physically, even at 29-30. Plus, he smoked a lot, not exactly a recipe for a long hockey career.

I firmly believe Bossy would have scored a lot of goals if he continued playing and stayed remotely healthy, no doubt about it. I think his talent level, his pure ability to find open space and execute was unparalleled in hockey, that transcends eras and style of play. You cannot defend against a player who has a goal scorer's instincts and the quick hands - he's always going to get his goals.

Of course, we will never know the truth and we can agree to disagree, somewhat.

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Old
10-10-2012, 12:57 PM
  #43
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Bobby best goal scorer of all time

one of only 3 players with 1000 pro goals NHL and WHA (others Howe and Wayne)


not to mention international accomplishments,1974 7 goals in 8 game 9 pts(lead team in goals and points, 1976 5 goals in 8 games 8 pts led team in goals,

Scored the most goals of any North American player against Tretiak

Jets vs Soviet national team of stats i can find, scored 4 Goals in 4 games as they jets became the first Club team to beat the Soviet national team, 5-3 in the final game 3 goals and an assist

Imagine him and Orr in 72 in his prime, no reason to believe he wouldnt have scored another 5 or 6 and the series according to Bobby Clarke and Mahovelich would have been over much sooner, imagine the ramifications of us cake walking the soviets in 72...

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10-15-2012, 06:07 PM
  #44
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An article from Hull's prime

If you read that article you'll get some sense of Hull's dominance at his peak. No player I have seen compares really. Perhaps the closest was Guy Lafleur at times (great speed and shooting ability), but Hull is in a class of his own of the players I have seen.

Hull was electrfying, a one man offence. Bossy was a great player but to me it is unfair to mention anyone in the same sentence as Bobby Hull.

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10-16-2012, 12:19 PM
  #45
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they were both elite snipers but hull had that bobby orr/mike gartner SIXTH gear as well. He could blow past anybody. Bossy didn't have this dimension. Avantage = Hull.

Now Bossy & Brett Hull, thats a fair fight.

Here he is at age 26 against a loaded Red Wings team...

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10-19-2012, 11:43 PM
  #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RabbinsDuck View Post
I consider Bobby Hull the greatest goal scorer of all-time with Bossy around #5. Not a large gap between them, though (like between the #1 and #5 *players* of all-time).
This is how I view them as well.

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I am going with Bossy who is arguably the best pure goal scorer ever.

9 consective seasons with over 50 goals. His only season with less than 50 was his last (38 goals in 63 games).

His junior stats are simply unreal. He averaged a mind-boggling 77 goals in 4 seasons in the QMJHL
You do realize that Jean Savard, Ron Carter, Mike Bossy and Norm Dupont all scored 70 plus goals in the Q in Bossy's draft year right?

Goal scoring in the Q in the 70's was at an all time high and doesn't mean very much without context.

Mike Bossy or Norm Dupont, the answer wasn't clear in 77.

Nevermind Mark Napier.

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10-20-2012, 01:41 AM
  #47
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To me only Mario Lemieux was a better goal scorer than Bobby Hull.

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10-20-2012, 06:16 PM
  #48
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To me only Mario Lemieux was a better goal scorer than Bobby Hull.
To me not even Mario was.

I am a huge Gretzky guy, and even I have to think about Bobby Hull as being a ridiculous 'pure' goalscorer, especially compared with his peers.

There is that top 5 someone brought up earlier:

Hull, Gretzky, Lemieux, Howe,and Richard and it's very hard to see a flaw. Personally I flip 1 and 2 here, but a real case could be made for almost any of the five.

I think everyone else is clearly behind these five by a step.

This isn't to denigrate Bossy, he was a marvelous scorer (probably top 10 ever,) but these guys really distanced themselves.

For instance up until Bossy retired he was only 30 goals ahead of Gretzky, despite playing 2 more seasons. (573-543) Though Bossy had the long 50 goal streak, he didn't score more goals over an 8 year period.

During the time their careers overlapped (8 seasons,) Gretzky was clearly ahead in scoring (543-451.)

After the same number of seasons Gretzky was (637-573) so Bossy was outstripped by a peer, during his peak (his whole career was peak!) no one came within a sniff of Hull while he played. he was clearly the best scorer of his time period, while Bossy was not.

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