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Brian Burke vs. Marc Bergevin

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Old
09-19-2012, 01:12 PM
  #51
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Originally Posted by Morecupsthanyou View Post
The difference between the two is Marc Bergevin didn't mortgage the future of the team to improve it today. He is preaching patience and seems to actually be commited to his strategy of rebuilding this team the right way, where burke told his fanbase, "we want a quick 1-2 year turnaround and has utterly destroyed your team because of it. Can he still recover..I think yes, drafting morgan reilly and aqcuiring JVR were steps in the right direction, but he has to stop with the quick fix crap and realize that nobody escapes the rules of the rebuild. It's long and it's painful, but the sooner burke realizes it the sooner the leafs become a relevant team again. The question is, how long is ownership willing to give him to produce some results, because the fact is, he's entering year 5, and the team is actually worse than when he arrived.
Who mortgaged the future?

And if you think this team is worse than it was, good on you. I don't think I've been this excited about my teams future in a long time

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09-19-2012, 03:36 PM
  #52
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Rick Dudley

Wanted to work for a real Hockey Department, he worked with Marc in Chicago and was part of making the Blackhaws Cup Champions, and their prospect talent continues one of the best in the league.

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09-19-2012, 04:02 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by FreeBird View Post
Wanted to work for a real Hockey Department, he worked with Marc in Chicago and was part of making the Blackhaws Cup Champions, and their prospect talent continues one of the best in the league.
You're probably right, nothing to do the promotion/ probable raise. Everything to do with Toronto. Although why would he choose Montreal? If any team is a bigger train wreck than us.....

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09-19-2012, 04:24 PM
  #54
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Originally Posted by FreeBird View Post
Wanted to work for a real Hockey Department, he worked with Marc in Chicago and was part of making the Blackhaws Cup Champions, and their prospect talent continues one of the best in the league.
So he was a success in Chicago, will be a success in Montreal but nothing with the Leafs.

Over 10 years in here of pretending to be a Leaf fan just so that you can...oops, can't write the truth.

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09-19-2012, 05:04 PM
  #55
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Side note about Bergevin: does anyone think he would have been hired by the Habs if he was the exact same person (with the same experience, decision making, etc.), but NOT French Canadian?

Prior to being hired by the Habs, Bergevin had only spent one year as an assistant GM (in Chicago), and had only been working on the management side of hockey (as a scout, assistant coach, etc.) since 2005. He has zero formal education in business or law (no schooling since high school/CEGEP). He is pretty under qualified for a GM position, I do think his ethnicity had a lot to do with him landing this job, after the massive public outcry in Quebec over the promotion of Cunneyworth to head coach the Molsons likely felt they had to hire a French Canadian. He was probably the best French Canadian for the job, but likely not the strongest GM candidate otherwise.

That's not to say that he'll be a bad choice, as I mentioned earlier there's really no way to judge him at the moment as a fan, there's really no way for us to know if he'll be a great GM or a terrible one since he has virtually no track record. It could be that he's a natural hockey/business genius, and he's also surrounded be a good management group to help show him the ropes in the early days of his career. It could also be that he'll be a total disaster. I'm not trying to speculate on his future, I'm just saying that we shouldn't act like he was some tremendously qualified candidate, if anything he is quite under qualified, and I do think it's likely that he beat out more qualified candidates for the job because he's French Canadian.

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09-19-2012, 05:24 PM
  #56
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Yeah, Bergevin did a pretty good job being gifted high draft picks.

Anyone remember when HFboards thought that Steve Yzerman was the next GM prodigy?

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09-19-2012, 05:27 PM
  #57
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As for Dudley, this is a guy who has been working on the management side of hockey for the last 30 years, who has already been the GM of two different NHL teams (the Sens and the Thrashers). He took on a minimal role in Toronto after he lost his job when the Thrashers moved to Winnipeg, but I'm sure he saw it as a short term job right from the start. Burke and Nonis were/are the key decision makers in Toronto, a man with Dudley's experience isn't going to be satisfied in the back seat. In Montreal he has a more prominent role, and is quite frankly way more experienced and qualified than Bergevin, I'm sure Dudley's opinion will hold a lot more weight in Montreal than it did in Toronto. Of course he was happy to take the Montreal job, it's a higher level job than he has in Toronto. Burke understood that, he was fine with Dudley leaving to advance his career, he just asked Dudley not to participate in Montreal's draft since the Leafs and Habs were drafting right before the Leafs, and he wouldn't want Dudley sharing the Leafs' sectrets/opinions. Dudley and Bergevin had no problem with that request, it's very reasonable.

There's no reason to think that Dudley left to join some "better management team," all signs point to him leaving simply because there was a ceiling to how high he could rise in Toronto (not going to rise above Burke or Nonis), and he was offered a better job with more power in Montreal. If you're the vice president of Shell, and you're offered a position as president of Chevron, you're probably going to take that position even if you don't think Chevron has the better management group.

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09-19-2012, 05:30 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by Mess View Post
Agreed, Dudley is known for his talent evaluation skills, and the entry draft is the best place to start when team building.

Dudley desperately wanted to help Montreal GM Bergevin out, rather than the current team he was employed by, during the period of time that is the most crucial for a teams future. Yup that is what I was saying, as actions speak louder than words..
Yeah, seems that people like promotions. We were all wondering about that one. Thanks for the insight, Mess.

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09-19-2012, 06:34 PM
  #59
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Absolutely ridiculous to claim he's a genius based on the resigning of Price.

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09-19-2012, 06:35 PM
  #60
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Yeah, seems that people like promotions. We were all wondering about that one. Thanks for the insight, Mess.
You are wrong. It has to do with how horrible Burke, it always is.

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09-19-2012, 06:36 PM
  #61
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Not even close. BB all the way. MB stepped in and had a good draft, and added some toughness. But, he had pieces to build around (price, Subban). BB had nothing. He honestly needed 3 years just to ship out all of the crappy guys on that team and add decent prospects. Last year was the first year since BB has been here that the leafs were buyers at the deadline.

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09-19-2012, 06:45 PM
  #62
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When you take into consideration Burke's DRAMATIC financial advantages... you could easily make the case of his tenure with the leafs being amongst the worst in all of nhl history.

The richest team in the league, with the highest paid nhl GM in all of world history, highest paid front office, highest paid scouting department, and ability to spend to cap ceiling every single season...
and after almost 4 years he can't even luck his way into a ****ing playoff spot.

If a movie or novel was made where the premise was the RICHEST team in an entire 30 team league has the longest championship drought, AND playoff drought... people would scoff the movie/novel's premise as being UTTERLY ridiculous and so far fetched that you couldn't take it seriously.
And then you could add in that the fans of that team were still SUPPORTIVE of management...
and it would be one of the most far fetched ideas ever even imagined.

What's happened to the leafs is literally stranger than fiction.

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09-19-2012, 06:51 PM
  #63
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Originally Posted by mikeo1 View Post
Yeah, Bergevin did a pretty good job being gifted high draft picks.

Anyone remember when HFboards thought that Steve Yzerman was the next GM prodigy?
Geez you make it sound like he was given the three top picks in the draft as a welcoming present. He drafted 3rd overall because his new team was the 3rd worst team in the NHL last season. After that pick the rest was a crapshoot and probably more a function of choice rather then draft position.

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09-19-2012, 07:21 PM
  #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Disgruntled Observer View Post
When you take into consideration Burke's DRAMATIC financial advantages... you could easily make the case of his tenure with the leafs being amongst the worst in all of nhl history.

The richest team in the league, with the highest paid nhl GM in all of world history, highest paid front office, highest paid scouting department, and ability to spend to cap ceiling every single season...
and after almost 4 years he can't even luck his way into a ****ing playoff spot.

If a movie or novel was made where the premise was the RICHEST team in an entire 30 team league has the longest championship drought, AND playoff drought... people would scoff the movie/novel's premise as being UTTERLY ridiculous and so far fetched that you couldn't take it seriously.
And then you could add in that the fans of that team were still SUPPORTIVE of management...
and it would be one of the most far fetched ideas ever even imagined.

What's happened to the leafs is literally stranger than fiction.
I see parallels in your posts.

Every team has the ability to spend as much as the Leafs do, these owners are billionaires.

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09-19-2012, 07:25 PM
  #65
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Bergevin is better at the french than Burke. Not even close, IMO.

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09-19-2012, 07:25 PM
  #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Disgruntled Observer View Post
When you take into consideration Burke's DRAMATIC financial advantages... you could easily make the case of his tenure with the leafs being amongst the worst in all of nhl history.

The richest team in the league, with the highest paid nhl GM in all of world history, highest paid front office, highest paid scouting department, and ability to spend to cap ceiling every single season...
and after almost 4 years he can't even luck his way into a ****ing playoff spot.

If a movie or novel was made where the premise was the RICHEST team in an entire 30 team league has the longest championship drought, AND playoff drought... people would scoff the movie/novel's premise as being UTTERLY ridiculous and so far fetched that you couldn't take it seriously.
And then you could add in that the fans of that team were still SUPPORTIVE of management...
and it would be one of the most far fetched ideas ever even imagined.

What's happened to the leafs is literally stranger than fiction.
And there it is! Copy and paste strikes again!!!!

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09-19-2012, 07:28 PM
  #67
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Originally Posted by HABitual Fan View Post
Geez you make it sound like he was given the three top picks in the draft as a welcoming present. He drafted 3rd overall because his new team was the 3rd worst team in the NHL last season. After that pick the rest was a crapshoot and probably more a function of choice rather then draft position.
Correction, still is 3rd worst team.

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09-19-2012, 07:40 PM
  #68
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Originally Posted by ponder View Post
Side note about Bergevin: does anyone think he would have been hired by the Habs if he was the exact same person (with the same experience, decision making, etc.), but NOT French Canadian?

Prior to being hired by the Habs, Bergevin had only spent one year as an assistant GM (in Chicago), and had only been working on the management side of hockey (as a scout, assistant coach, etc.) since 2005. He has zero formal education in business or law (no schooling since high school/CEGEP). He is pretty under qualified for a GM position, I do think his ethnicity had a lot to do with him landing this job, after the massive public outcry in Quebec over the promotion of Cunneyworth to head coach the Molsons likely felt they had to hire a French Canadian. He was probably the best French Canadian for the job, but likely not the strongest GM candidate otherwise.

That's not to say that he'll be a bad choice, as I mentioned earlier there's really no way to judge him at the moment as a fan, there's really no way for us to know if he'll be a great GM or a terrible one since he has virtually no track record. It could be that he's a natural hockey/business genius, and he's also surrounded be a good management group to help show him the ropes in the early days of his career. It could also be that he'll be a total disaster. I'm not trying to speculate on his future, I'm just saying that we shouldn't act like he was some tremendously qualified candidate, if anything he is quite under qualified, and I do think it's likely that he beat out more qualified candidates for the job because he's French Canadian.
Tough to answer this one. Who was a better candidate that was available? Pierre Maguire? The guy they wanted who was not french canadian Jim Nill was not available though he was interested , because his wife is ill. Sure his being a French Canadian didn't hurt his cause, but was it the deciding factor? I doubt it.

As to his lack of experience, I think that actually made him the ideal candidate. After so many years of a tight inner circle running the team with an old boys network in secrecy, I think Molson wanted to break the cycle. Before Bergevin was hired Dudley was asked about him on a local radio station, including his lack of education. He replied more or less that that Bergevin was a great hockey mind, and if you want a lawyer you can find a lawyer, you want an accountant you can find an accountant but as a GM you need a hockey guy first and foremost.

Since he has come in he has revamped the organization from top to bottom in coaching, scouting, player development, and the AHL coaching staff. With a few exceptions these are all guys who paid their dues as players, not star players but guys whose hard work kept them in the league. Some with previous connections with him, and some without. Remains to be seen how they will do.

Michel Therrien, Gerard Gallant, Clement Jodoin, Jean-Jacques Daigneault, Pierre Groulx, Mario Leblanc in the NHL

Sylvain Lefebvre,Donald Dufresne,Vincent Riendeau, Ron Wilson in Hamilton

Rick Dudley ass't gm
Larry Carriere ass't gm
Trevor Timmins director of amateur scouting
Scott Mellanby director of player personel
Martin Lapointe director of player development
Patrice Brisebois player development coach
Patrick Boivin director hockey operations

Ethan Moreau, Donald Audette, Mark Mowers and John Madden were all added to the scouting staff already in place.

A funny example of the connections is with JJ Daigneault. They played on the same Atom team together as boys, also on the team was another guy that made it to the NHL, Mario Lemieux.

It is way to early to evaluate his moves, but after having GM's who did everything themselves at least he is spreading things out and letting everyone deal with a specific aspect of things rather then by commitee and there is a transparency we have never seen before. An example of this was at the Canadiens golf tournament today, Marty Lapointe was asked about the incident at North Dakota involving the suspension of one of our prospects Danny Kristo. Rather then the usual "no comment" we were used to, he said he was aware of it as soon as it occured, and the matter was taken care of. A refreshing change for Hab fans.


Last edited by HABitual Fan: 09-19-2012 at 08:09 PM. Reason: added something to end
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Old
09-19-2012, 07:45 PM
  #69
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Correction, still is 3rd worst team.
I'm in, another top 3 pick already!

Who should we draft?

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09-19-2012, 08:21 PM
  #70
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Makes draft picks

Re-signs player

That there be a genius!

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09-19-2012, 08:22 PM
  #71
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I'm in, another top 3 pick already!

Who should we draft?
Not sure, I know as scale ad fan were apparently all about Mackinnon.

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09-19-2012, 08:23 PM
  #72
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Makes draft picks

Re-signs player

That there be a genius!
We have one of those, don't we?

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09-19-2012, 08:24 PM
  #73
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We have one of those, don't we?
Burke trades picks


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09-19-2012, 08:28 PM
  #74
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Not sure, I know as scale ad fan were apparently all about Mackinnon.
I guess I should ask Oiler fan who they want 1st overall and work from there

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09-19-2012, 08:43 PM
  #75
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Burke trades picks

Traded. Past tense. He's grown up now.

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