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09-20-2012, 08:15 AM
  #101
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Originally Posted by GreekLeafer View Post
LOL name me one GM who wouldn't have had major letdowns, problems, and setbacks while trying to rescue this complete wreckage of an organization coming out of the last lockout. Look what Holmgren inherited when he took over Philly. Tallon inherited Florida with a stocked prospect system and solid goaltending. Gillis inherited the team that BURKE AND NONIS BUILT after years of ****.
Why don't we wait until they actually have built the team?

They were 5th. worst in the league and one billion prospects aren't NHL players. Believe it or not the Leafs are a NHL team, not an AHL team.

Whatever happens in the AHL or lessor leagues doesn't mean squad to the Leafs unless/until it translates to the NHL.

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09-20-2012, 08:20 AM
  #102
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Originally Posted by ITM View Post
The reasons don't necessarily have to be qualitative though. Where Forsberg and Grigorenko were selected demonstrates as much.

Said otherwise, it's good and fortunate to be in a position where higher ranked players fall.

Something our fanbase could learn from Detroit's for example.

Tyler Biggs was once ranked top 5 in the draft.

I agree if you can get a player you've ranked higher good for you.

My point was someone was discrediting the Habs because they selected players that dropped (suggesting they dropped for a reason) and someone else was praising the Leafs for nabbing a player who dropped (but they didn't drop for a reason?) and I thought it was funny coming only a few posts apart.

It's just the nature of biased arguing. Called being a fan, you see what you want to see.

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09-20-2012, 08:22 AM
  #103
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Originally Posted by Mess View Post
The writing is on the wall.

Leafs ex assistant GM Rick Dudley, whom is well respected around the league, freely chose working for Marc Bergevin over Brian Burke.

Burke even had to restrain Dudley's departure time, to post entry draft while still under contract, as he couldn't get out the door fast enough to join Montreal.

Dudley for one believes the grass is greener elsewhere.
And of the executives in question, if anyone were to argue anything other than Burke being the clear cut best of the bunch, that person's opinion should be regarded as uninformed to say the least.

If cutting bait in Toronto to fish in Montreal is the mark of a genius, then pardon for me questioning how an organization with a generational goaltender and quality supporting players can finish lower than our humble Leafs and remain the more attractive choice.

This little anecdote of exodus reminds me of the Western movie definition of integrity: In a gunfight you've got standers and runners...

In Toronto - including it's fanbase - runners need not apply.

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09-20-2012, 08:26 AM
  #104
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Originally Posted by ULF_55 View Post
Tyler Biggs was once ranked top 5 in the draft.

I agree if you can get a player you've ranked higher good for you.

My point was someone was discrediting the Habs because they selected players that dropped (suggesting they dropped for a reason) and someone else was praising the Leafs for nabbing a player who dropped (but they didn't drop for a reason?) and I thought it was funny coming only a few posts apart.
It's just the nature of biased arguing. Called being a fan, you see what you want to see.
Ah. I see. True.

Fanatical valuations tend to mar the base they represent. Unnecessary when so many germane points can marshall the evidence in favour of one argument or another without the distortion.

I agree with you completely.

Speaking of fanatics....


Last edited by ULF_55: 09-20-2012 at 08:29 AM. Reason: I'll answer the unasked.
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09-20-2012, 08:28 AM
  #105
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Originally Posted by ITM View Post
And of the executives in question, if anyone were to argue anything other than Burke being the clear cut best of the bunch, that person's opinion should be regarded as uninformed to say the least.

If cutting bait in Toronto to fish in Montreal is the mark of a genius, then pardon for me questioning how an organization with a generational goaltender and quality supporting players can finish lower than our humble Leafs and remain the more attractive choice.

This little anecdote of exodus reminds me of the Western movie definition of integrity: In a gunfight you've got standers and runners...

In Toronto - including it's fanbase - runners need not apply.
That's why I appreciated Sundin, McCabe, Tucker, Kaberle and Kubina staying until the final showdown.

They weren't runners.

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09-20-2012, 08:31 AM
  #106
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Originally Posted by ITM View Post
Ah. I see. True.

Fanatical valuations tend to mar the base they represent. Unnecessary when so many germane points can marshall the evidence in favour of one argument or another without the distortion.

I agree with you completely.

Speaking of fanatics....
The rules do not enforce agreement.

A fan can express his sentiment on the issues even if they are negative.

Now the rules are different for visitors than they are for residents.

I know this is vague but hopefully you get it as the topic of the unasked question is not a permitted discussion.

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09-20-2012, 08:37 AM
  #107
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Originally Posted by ULF_55 View Post
The rules do not enforce agreement.

A fan can express his sentiment on the issues even if they are negative.

Now the rules are different for visitors than they are for residents.

I know this is vague but hopefully you get it as the topic of the unasked question is not a permitted discussion.
Oh I wasn't looking for forced agreement, just wondering how incessant incitement based on one single solitary perspective was allowed as constructive, pro or con.

Thanks for the explanation.

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09-20-2012, 08:40 AM
  #108
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Originally Posted by ULF_55 View Post
That's why I appreciated Sundin, McCabe, Tucker, Kaberle and Kubina staying until the final showdown.

They weren't runners.
You know, especially in Sundin's instance, I did as well. There's a few players you just leave alone. Sundin was one in a generation for sure. Man, is his absence felt when it's considered what he brought to the team.


Last edited by ITM: 09-20-2012 at 08:42 AM. Reason: On Kubina: Never understood letting him go.
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09-20-2012, 09:02 AM
  #109
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There is a fine line between a commitment to a strategic plan and stubbornness. My fear is Burke doesn't know where that line is. His stubbornness in sticking to his coaching staff mistakes (in the form of Wilson and Allaire) have hurt the organization more than his player personnel mistakes.

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09-20-2012, 09:06 AM
  #110
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Originally Posted by ITM View Post
If cutting bait in Toronto to fish in Montreal is the mark of a genius, then pardon for me questioning how an organization with a generational goaltender and quality supporting players can finish lower than our humble Leafs and remain the more attractive choice..
Anomaly verses Consistency

Anomaly - Definition: 1. Deviation or departure from the normal or common form, or rule.
Consistency: - Definition- 1. The condition of cohering or holding together regularly, retaining form; solidity.

In the past 5 seasons Montreal has missed the playoffs only once and that was last season, when they finished lower than the Leafs. In only 2 of the 7 post lockout seasons have Montreal missed the playoffs, as they tend to make them with regularity instead. Lots of reasons for an anomaly to occur, as the word suggests, but returning to form thereafter should not be unexpected, based on trending patterns of past seasons combined.

Leafs have been in the bottom 10 of the NHL standings all 5 of the past 5 years, and missed the playoffs all 7 consecutive seasons since the last lockout. This consistency of failure has earned the Leafs the undesirable distinction of the least successful in the NHL and the only team of the 30 to be able to accomplish this.

In the 2009-10 season alone, while the Leafs were finishing 29th overall and 2nd last overall, and below Montreal's finish last season, the Habs were in the Conference Playoff finals final 4 teams just few seasons ago now.

Marc Bergevin is inheriting a Montreal team that drafted where it did base on an anomaly finish. This suggests that it was a "one of" situation that could very well see the team return to its normal/regular playoff position as early as this year. No major changes are required to stay the course, accept the speed bump anomaly of last season, and hope the ships rights itself back to the norm.

Burke inherited a team that finished 7th last and in 2 of his past 3 full seasons including the last one has managed the team to an even lower end result than the one he inherited. This is not a "one of" situation where we should expect the team to return to form, as making the playoffs would be the anomaly in the Leafs case. This is a team that has proven consistently to be among the weakest in the NHL on performance.

Rick Dudley, when viewing his own opportunities clearly decided by leaving the present sinking ship in TO for higher ground, was a sign he felt prosperity for himself lay in switching organizations both personally and for his new team. So I'm not basing my Bergevin verses Burke personal opinion on conjecture but rather actual facts, as actions speak louder than words in this case based on what Dudley did in actuality. I also don't blame Dudley for his decision to jump ship as for what is best for his career based on the above situations.

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Last edited by Mess: 09-20-2012 at 09:34 AM.
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Old
09-20-2012, 09:21 AM
  #111
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Sure, but what good is cycling over all your players if the outcome is still the same?
Very weak argument IMO, it's clearly evident we're much better stockpiled with prospects and have quality NHL'ers on our roster compared to how both of these areas used to be. If you're using the excuse that things haven't changed (like some others here do) because of the standings you need to find a new measuring stick.

Just thinking about how our old roster and prospect pool was only a few years ago makes me want to vomit. The difference is night and day.

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09-20-2012, 09:54 AM
  #112
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It's good to know that all of those complimentary comments about the Leafs' future came from such a great hockey mind in Rick Dudley. Shows that Burke's plan is working.

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09-20-2012, 09:59 AM
  #113
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Very weak argument IMO, it's clearly evident we're much better stockpiled with prospects and have quality NHL'ers on our roster compared to how both of these areas used to be. If you're using the excuse that things haven't changed (like some others here do) because of the standings you need to find a new measuring stick.

Just thinking about how our old roster and prospect pool was only a few years ago makes me want to vomit. The difference is night and day.
It's not gonna mean squat if they all leave before we can reach any level of success. The Leafs are still an unattractive place for free agents and our prospect pool is, at best, slightly above average. Contracts for our main players are getting closer to expiring and if we can't get out of the basement where's the incentive to stay?

Stockpiling assets is all well and good but creating a winning atmosphere is significantly more important.

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09-20-2012, 10:47 AM
  #114
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Originally Posted by Mess View Post
The writing is on the wall.

Leafs ex assistant GM Rick Dudley, whom is well respected around the league, freely chose working for Marc Bergevin over Brian Burke.

Burke even had to restrain Dudley's departure time, to post entry draft while still under contract, as he couldn't get out the door fast enough to join Montreal.

Dudley for one believes the grass is greener elsewhere.
Shouldn't it be a positive reflection that Burke employed and gained the benefits of having Dudley as part of his staff well he was here?

Dudley moved on for a promotion into one of only 30 assistant NHL GM jobs in the entire world. Of those 30, the Habs organization is without a doubt in the top half of the desired teams to work for because of the solid ownership, passion of the fans and salary a team like the Habs would pay.

When Detroit losses staff like Yzerman, Maclean or McLellan cause of promotionial opportunities with other teams does that mean they're leaving cause the grass is greener?

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09-20-2012, 10:52 AM
  #115
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Who mortgaged the future?

And if you think this team is worse than it was, good on you. I don't think I've been this excited about my teams future in a long time
It's not a matter of opinion. It's just fact. 24th at the end of the 2008 season as opposed to 26th at the end of the 2012. The leafs have not gotten any better.

And Brian Burke mortgaged the future when he made the kessel trade. Tyler Seguin and Dougie Hamilton are/going to be star players.
He should have known where the leafs were going to finish having been in the bottom 5 the previous year and never should have let it happen. I'm sorry, but the man's ego is massive, and he just couldn't sit patiently on what would have turned out to be your number one center and defender. He's a man who's preached building a team from the backend, and after 4 years he's yet to complete that task.

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09-20-2012, 10:55 AM
  #116
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Originally Posted by Mess View Post
Anomaly verses Consistency

Anomaly - Definition: 1. Deviation or departure from the normal or common form, or rule.
Consistency: - Definition- 1. The condition of cohering or holding together regularly, retaining form; solidity.

In the past 5 seasons Montreal has missed the playoffs only once and that was last season, when they finished lower than the Leafs. In only 2 of the 7 post lockout seasons have Montreal missed the playoffs, as they tend to make them with regularity instead. Lots of reasons for an anomaly to occur, as the word suggests, but returning to form thereafter should not be unexpected, based on trending patterns of past seasons combined.

Leafs have been in the bottom 10 of the NHL standings all 5 of the past 5 years, and missed the playoffs all 7 consecutive seasons since the last lockout. This consistency of failure has earned the Leafs the undesirable distinction of the least successful in the NHL and the only team of the 30 to be able to accomplish this.

In the 2009-10 season alone, while the Leafs were finishing 29th overall and 2nd last overall, and below Montreal's finish last season, the Habs were in the Conference Playoff finals final 4 teams just few seasons ago now.

Marc Bergevin is inheriting a Montreal team that drafted where it did base on an anomaly finish. This suggests that it was a "one of" situation that could very well see the team return to its normal/regular playoff position as early as this year. No major changes are required to stay the course, accept the speed bump anomaly of last season, and hope the ships rights itself back to the norm.

Burke inherited a team that finished 7th last and in 2 of his past 3 full seasons including the last one has managed the team to an even lower end result than the one he inherited. This is not a "one of" situation where we should expect the team to return to form, as making the playoffs would be the anomaly in the Leafs case. This is a team that has proven consistently to be among the weakest in the NHL on performance.

Rick Dudley, when viewing his own opportunities clearly decided by leaving the present sinking ship in TO for higher ground, was a sign he felt prosperity for himself lay in switching organizations both personally and for his new team. So I'm not basing my Bergevin verses Burke personal opinion on conjecture but rather actual facts, as actions speak louder than words in this case based on what Dudley did in actuality. I also don't blame Dudley for his decision to jump ship as for what is best for his career based on the above situations.
And as if to prove my point further you specifically selected to omit the first sentence from the comment you quoted. It reads:

"And of the executives in question, if anyone were to argue anything other than Burke being the clear cut best of the bunch, that person's opinion should be regarded as uninformed to say the least."

Kindly apply your considerate defintions to the above of the executives in question. You're deferring to Dudley's apprhension over the remaining Toronto brass...How so if history and success mean anything in these examples?

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09-20-2012, 11:29 AM
  #117
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Besides actually seeing a Marc Bergevin team play games the only other reason why I would still go with Brian Burke is this reason. Everyone would agree that on paper Montreal has a better Goalie situation because they know Carey Price is their #1 and I hope that James Reimer can play the same way he did during the 2010-2011 season, so he can prove to be the Leafs #1 Goalie. However this past season Montreal finished worse in the standings then Toronto and that was with Carey Price in net, so if I was a Montreal fan I would be worried about that.

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09-20-2012, 11:40 AM
  #118
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If cutting bait in Toronto to fish in Montreal is the mark of a genius, then pardon for me questioning how an organization with a generational goaltender and quality supporting players can finish lower than our humble Leafs and remain the more attractive choice.
MTl had special year last season. With fragile management, a new owner installing himself (Molson) and slow start/injury filled team at beginning of the season, it was, like Mess put it, quite the "anomaly". From Cammy's being traded During a game (lol) to Jacques Martin getting the boot only to be replaced by a guy who had no game-plan nor actual power to instil his own strategy. The whole season was a cluster****, and not really representative of Montreal prospects (which are rated to be top class right now, with Price, Subban and Max Pacioretty already a "success" and up comings which you will hear about soon if you have not yet).

Not interested in comparing Leafs-Habs (especially in domain as subjective as potential prospect success), but last season doesn't represent the habs team or presupposes the "current state of affairs" of the habs is as terrible as it 11/12 standings.

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09-20-2012, 12:13 PM
  #119
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Why is Montreal's last season an anomaly? Because in 2010 they had a fluke run past a couple team in the playoffs? Did they have a ridiculous amount of injuries to their top guys?

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09-20-2012, 12:56 PM
  #120
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Why is Montreal's last season an anomaly? Because in 2010 they had a fluke run past a couple team in the playoffs? Did they have a ridiculous amount of injuries to their top guys?
Alot of injuries to our Blueline. or Blueline was composed of rookies and inexperienced players. Read my above post for further details on a "weird" year. maybe not an anomaly, because i think teams have to go through some bad years at some point, but it's not representative of what habs have been and what habs will be in the near future.

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09-20-2012, 01:56 PM
  #121
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You're probably right, nothing to do the promotion/ probable raise. Everything to do with Toronto. Although why would he choose Montreal? If any team is a bigger train wreck than us.....
Perhaps Dudley saw Disfunction and like Allaire split for his sanity.

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09-20-2012, 02:33 PM
  #122
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So he was a success in Chicago, will be a success in Montreal but nothing with the Leafs.

Over 10 years in here of pretending to be a Leaf fan just so that you can...oops, can't write the truth.
I've been a Leaf fan before you were born, and unlike you I have actually seen a Leaf front office that was competent under Punch Imlach and Bob Davidson who was the Chief Scout back in the days that the Marlies and St.Mike's were powerhouses. I spent my Teenage years watching FOUR Stanley Cup Champions, so I've seen Competence and I've seen Dysfunction and know the Difference. Unlike you I've seen what it takes to Win Cups and the passion for Winning is embedded in my Gut, just as loosing has become comfortable and acceptable to you, your an example how a team can miss the playoffs for seven years and still sell all the tickets. It's not your fault you've never seen any thing else, unlike myself who've seen it all I can't stand silent and see my Beloved Leafs become the laughing stock of Hockey Fans ever were, back in the 60's the Hawks were the most talented team and a friend of mines favourite team, he invited me to his home for Supper and to watch the Playoff game, the Hawks had the puck all night long and peppered Sawchuck with rubber but to no avail you couldn't have got a pee past him that night it was Vintage Sawchuck he was the best I ever saw. Any way my Friend was so frustrated he asked me to leave, and I left proudly with my Head held high, nothing mattered I was a Leaf fan and a winner, hopefully some day you'll experience that feeling of Superiority and in your step there is nothing like it. I know what Winning is and I'll never accept any thing Less.

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09-20-2012, 03:30 PM
  #123
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MTl had special year last season. With fragile management, a new owner installing himself (Molson) and slow start/injury filled team at beginning of the season, it was, like Mess put it, quite the "anomaly". From Cammy's being traded During a game (lol) to Jacques Martin getting the boot only to be replaced by a guy who had no game-plan nor actual power to instil his own strategy. The whole season was a cluster****, and not really representative of Montreal prospects (which are rated to be top class right now, with Price, Subban and Max Pacioretty already a "success" and up comings which you will hear about soon if you have not yet).

Not interested in comparing Leafs-Habs (especially in domain as subjective as potential prospect success), but last season doesn't represent the habs team or presupposes the "current state of affairs" of the habs is as terrible as it 11/12 standings.
So in essence my question stands as to how does going to Montreal from Toronto qualify praise for Dudley and derision toward Burke? Or moreover, praise for Bergevin for taking his first GM portfolio, as a francophone, for the Montreal Canadiens?

I wasn't comparing entry draft selections as some tipping point one way or another, I simply disagree that per the thread's main focus, that Bergevin or Dudley have done anything to warrant praise, and by contrast that in some bizarro universe, said unfounded praise should then be enhanced with a contrast of Burke's tasks/performances in Toronto.

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09-21-2012, 07:06 AM
  #124
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Do you think teams become Stanley contenders overnight?

Regardless, you were complaining about how our prospects were being handled, how they were being pressured. I think we can safely say management is not the ones doing this.

Regarding your second part,again, overnight?
No, but they shouldn't take 4 years to make the playoffs either. Not everyone can be as good as Paul Holmgren is in Philadelphia, inheriting one of the worst teams in the league, drafting JvR, and go back to being an instant playoff team the next year, despite not having that #2 overall pick do anything material for your franchise at any point.

But, when you've got resources at the table, there's absolutely no good reason it should be 4 years to make the playoffs. It should be 5 years to be a legitimate contender, which means you need to make the playoffs in year 2 or 3.

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09-21-2012, 07:19 AM
  #125
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No, but they shouldn't take 4 years to make the playoffs either. Not everyone can be as good as Paul Holmgren is in Philadelphia, inheriting one of the worst teams in the league, drafting JvR, and go back to being an instant playoff team the next year, despite not having that #2 overall pick do anything material for your franchise at any point.

But, when you've got resources at the table, there's absolutely no good reason it should be 4 years to make the playoffs. It should be 5 years to be a legitimate contender, which means you need to make the playoffs in year 2 or 3.
Holmgren inherited Giroux, Nodl, Carter, Richards, Gagne, Knuble and Forsberg. Life must have been real tough to turn that sinking ship around

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