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Branch continues to ruin hockey in Canada

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Old
09-20-2012, 10:19 AM
  #201
DaaaaB's
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Originally Posted by Gobias Industries View Post
It's not really a huge leap when we have repeated first-hand confirmation that the stress of fighting can lead to depression and outlets like substance abuse.
Can lead to depression, sure. In most cases it doesn't though. There's plenty of things that can lead to depression. Think about how many hockey fighters, boxers, MMA fighters etc. there have been over the years. I'd bet that less than 1% have killed themselves. There's likely a higher % that suffer from depression but that's surprising considering that roughly 10% of North America's population suffer from depression if I recall correctly.

I've had two cousins kill themselves and neither one was ever invlved in a fight. There's thousands if not millions of people who suffer from depression and have never been in a fight so to say Rypien, Boogey and Belak killed themselves because of depression caused by blows to the head is a pretty big assumption to make imo.

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09-20-2012, 10:21 AM
  #202
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Originally Posted by DaaaaB's View Post
Can lead to depression, sure. In most cases it doesn't though. There's plenty of things that can lead to depression. Think about how many hockey fighters, boxers, MMA fighters etc. there have been over the years. I'd bet that less than 1% have killed themselves. There's likely a higher % that suffer from depression but that's surprising considering that roughly 10% of North America's population suffer from depression if I recall correctly.

I've had two cousins kill themselves and neither one was ever invlved in a fight. There's thousands if not millions of people who suffer from depression and have never been in a fight so to say Rypien, Boogey and Belak killed themselves because of depression caused by blows to the head is a pretty big assumption to make imo.
You don't find it odd that the only people who have killed themselves in the NHL in recent years were fighters?

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09-20-2012, 10:25 AM
  #203
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I'm not blaming the deaths on that at all. There were obviously other factors at play. I am saying there is a connection between blows to the head and depression, which is a fact I have read in numerous research articles for my concussion research in school. I also work with university hockey players every day, some of which got in 20+ fights in their career and have admitted to me that they have never been the same after hitting their head off the ice during fights. We also had a player that couldn't go to school for an entire semester from a fight in junior. That also comes into play here. OHL kids can't afford to sit in dark rooms for months on end like Marc Savard did. They have educational responsibilities that need to be met.

There is also no fighting in our league and liberties are rarely taken with other players like it's a free for all. And if there are, a player will take the suspension for holding the other accountable (1 game in our case). I believe fighting NEEDS to be in hockey for policing purposes. However, I also believe that this limit will significantly decrease the staged fights where it's just the two tough guys fighting because they're supposed to. And if someone takes out the best player, no teammate is going to say "well, I'm on 9 fights so I'd better just let that guy run around tonight." No, he's still going to engage him, hold him accountable and take the suspension.

These guys aren't paid $950,000 per year to take on the risk like your average tough guy in the show. They have their entire lives ahead of them which most likely does not include hockey, and could very well include future education, for which they need their brains.
Fair enough. I kind of jumped the gun on assuming that. My bad.

Good points on the junior players. This rule doesn't bother me much because of the players being junior players. I'll snap if anything like this ever gets brought into the NHL but for junior hockey it's understandable.

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09-20-2012, 10:26 AM
  #204
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I agree.

But it should be up to the league to ensure there isn't undue pressure on these players if we're allowing them to make those decisions though. I think currently the culture still stigmatizes those who don't fight as "wimps" and cultivates a stress filled, pressurized environment for those who have a reputation as a fighter but don't want to fight any more.

I think your reasoning is applicable in the NHL, but again, when it involves players as young as 15 or 16, I think there's a different standard.

How many 15 and 16 year olds were in the OHL last year? And amongst those players how many of them fought older players? And amongst those fights how many sustained head injuries?

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09-20-2012, 10:27 AM
  #205
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Originally Posted by Gobias Industries View Post
Oh, a globa and mail poll. They have a great grasp on all of Canada, especially the folks outside of Toronto

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09-20-2012, 10:31 AM
  #206
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Originally Posted by patty59 View Post
How many 15 and 16 year olds were in the OHL last year? And amongst those players how many of them fought older players? And amongst those fights how many sustained head injuries?
Regardless, the standard is being set for a league that includes players that young. Would you prefer rules set for different age brackets?

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09-20-2012, 10:31 AM
  #207
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Fair enough. I kind of jumped the gun on assuming that. My bad.

Good points on the junior players. This rule doesn't bother me much because of the players being junior players. I'll snap if anything like this ever gets brought into the NHL but for junior hockey it's understandable.
Agreed. At an NHL level, they are financially compensated partly because of the large risk to their bodies, and are fully ready suffer the consequences after. I just see a different distinction with teenagers. Sometimes decisions have to be made for them.

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09-20-2012, 10:32 AM
  #208
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Originally Posted by patty59 View Post
Oh, a globa and mail poll. They have a great grasp on all of Canada, especially the folks outside of Toronto
And your prefered, more accurate poll disputing those results?

Oh right, I'll keep being constructive and you can keep posting smilies.

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09-20-2012, 10:33 AM
  #209
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Originally Posted by CanadianBruinsFan View Post
Agreed. At an NHL level, they are financially compensated partly because of the large risk to their bodies, and are fully ready suffer the consequences after. I just see a different distinction with teenagers. Sometimes decisions have to be made for them.
Don't they have parents for that?

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09-20-2012, 10:36 AM
  #210
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Don't they have parents for that?
Yes, but the league is also responsible for its players and can intervene as they see fit.

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09-20-2012, 10:54 AM
  #211
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Originally Posted by Morris Wanchuk View Post
Don't they have parents for that?
Morris you know as well as I do that there are parents who will sacrifice their children on the altar of their financial ambitions. We see it in football, basketball, tennis, etc etc etc. Hockey is no different.

Sadly not every parent has their child's best interest at heart.

Also there is no way a 15 year old can make an informed decision- they simply do not grasp the consequences- that is, nothing bad will ever happen to them. If something bad does happen it will happen to someone else. As for the future they can't picture themselves 50 years old and not being able to form a coherent sentence. Hell they can't picture themselves 50 years old period.

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09-20-2012, 11:07 AM
  #212
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You don't find it odd that the only people who have killed themselves in the NHL in recent years were fighters?
No, not really. I know repeated blows to the head can be a factor in causing depression but I highly doubt that alone was the cause for those guys. They most likely had other issues going on. Some people don't have a specific reason to explain why they suffer from depression, they just do.

Tom Cavanagh also killed hiimself last year and wasn't a fighter. I remember reading an article near the end of 2011 that listed athletes who had killed themselves in 2011 and very few if any were athletes who took blows to the head (oddly they didn't mention Belak, Rypen or Boogey). I'd say a very small pct of people who killed themselves took blows to the head during their life. I'd say it's more of a coincidence then anything that the 3 guys who died last year were fighters.

BTW, did Boogey actually kill himself or did he just overdose on drugs?

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09-20-2012, 11:21 AM
  #213
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BTW, did Boogey actually kill himself or did he just overdose on drugs?
It was technically an overdose on prescription drugs he was addicted to. His brother Aaron found him in the afternoon after they were up drinking all night, but Derek was popping I think it was Oxycodone all night. Died from the mixture.

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09-20-2012, 11:23 AM
  #214
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That article is laughable. I'd love to see the demographics on those polled. You know what means more than some article, where for all we know the guy doing those surveys just made them up, going to actual hockey games and listening to fans reactions when fights break out. They absolutely love it.

How many people polled are actually real hockey fans and don't just watch the odd playoff game. What % are men or women. Things like that matter and need to be defined if using a poll in an argument.

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09-20-2012, 11:27 AM
  #215
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Originally Posted by CanadianBruinsFan View Post
It was technically an overdose on prescription drugs he was addicted to. His brother Aaron found him in the afternoon after they were up drinking all night, but Derek was popping I think it was Oxycodone all night. Died from the mixture.
So it's hard to say if he meant to kill himself or not then. Either way, it was his addiction or depression that killed him or a combination of both.

Another thing to consider with fighters is that a lot of them are a little off their rocker in the first place and have wild, volatile personalities. It's part of what makes them become fighters. There are many who just do it because they're big and tough though too even if they don't enjoy it.

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09-20-2012, 11:53 AM
  #216
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No, not really. I know repeated blows to the head can be a factor in causing depression but I highly doubt that alone was the cause for those guys. They most likely had other issues going on. Some people don't have a specific reason to explain why they suffer from depression, they just do.

Tom Cavanagh also killed hiimself last year and wasn't a fighter. I remember reading an article near the end of 2011 that listed athletes who had killed themselves in 2011 and very few if any were athletes who took blows to the head (oddly they didn't mention Belak, Rypen or Boogey). I'd say a very small pct of people who killed themselves took blows to the head during their life. I'd say it's more of a coincidence then anything that the 3 guys who died last year were fighters.

BTW, did Boogey actually kill himself or did he just overdose on drugs?
Considering career tough guys and the depression thing. I think you also have to remember these guys get used up, then tossed away when they're no longer useful or needed. Then are left to face the reality of life after pro hockey, while likely only earning close to league minimum during their tenure. Add the problems w/ addiction from the injuries they accumulate, and you have a guy in a very, very bad place.

If it were merely blows to the head, every ex-boxer/mma fighter would be dropping dead like flies.

I'm fine w/ removing the staged fights from the game, as well as the career goon, as much as I do respect them. But their role is simply going to evolve into a more useful player who can also fight and enforce (exp. Lucic, Thornton).

You'll never completely remove fighting from this game. Anyone who believes you can has never had their radius bone slashed, or their lower back and ribs pummeled, w/ what most would consider to be a weapon. And, by another human being w/ smarmy french accent that says stuff a/b your Mom. Why hockey can never be compared to any other professional sport. If baseball players were permitted to stand on base w/ their bats, constantly jockeying for body position w/ fielders, and contact were permitted. There would be more fighting in baseball. Not a bad idea, actually.

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09-20-2012, 03:37 PM
  #217
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Heard it mentioned today that one very in intended consequence of this in the NHL would be a return of the disposable goon:

Let's say Jon Scott gets in 10 fights in Buffalo's first 40 games. Does anyone think for a second that the Sabres will go from Jon Scott to nobody? Hell no, they'll waive him and sign Steve MacIntyre or another dime-a-dozen baddie.

I can see the argument for protecting the brains of teenagers. I can't see the argument for telling grown men what they can and can't do to earn a living within reason, and agreeing to fight is within reason.

That's what people forget: fighters choose to fight every time they do. Marc Savard didn't choose to be laid out. Marian Hossa didn't choose to be decked. Patrice Bergeron didn't choose to be rammed.

If the league going to play the concussion card, it had better make sure its own house is in order with rule 48 getting beefed up.

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