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Old
09-20-2012, 09:02 AM
  #76
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Originally Posted by MPStoEberletoHall View Post
Haha ya right. The Nuge is going to be a top 5 scorer in the NHL soon. Bank on it
So eventually, he could have the same value, as the group of players that we'd only consider trading Pietrangelo for.

True #1 defensemen are more rare than true #1 centers.

If we ranked offense, defense, goaltending, and coaching on importance for winning the Cup, right now I would put offense at the bottom of the list.

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09-20-2012, 09:06 AM
  #77
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Originally Posted by MPStoEberletoHall View Post
Haha ya right. The Nuge is going to be a top 5 scorer in the NHL soon. Bank on it
And Petro is already a top 5 dman, whats your point?

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09-20-2012, 09:12 AM
  #78
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Originally Posted by Iceonfire View Post
Top 5?

1. Weber
2. Chara
3. Karlsson
4. Pronger (When healthy)
5. Doughty/Keith

Again, I am not knocking Pietrangelo and one day he might top that list. But as of now he is not in the top 5, and his value is only as high as the team that wants him is willing to pay.

This thread is pointless anyways. Neither team would do this. Edmonton made it clear at the deadline that they are fine with what they have. And the Blues had a very good year, why risk it.
Pietro is superior to atleast 4 dmans you named.

In fact, Keith is not even top 10 anymore the way he's playing, Seabrook has been better than him. Doughty had incredible playoff, but he's no where near how Pietrangelo can control the pace of a game ALA Lidstrom. Karlsson isnt even debatable for him.

Where competition starts it's with Chara, I'd say he's better than him(maybe because I hate him but hey whatever..)

Weber is undisputed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Iceonfire View Post
I am a big Pietrangelo fan. He was insane in the world juniors and clearly doesn't get enough attention. But Blues fans are grossly exaggerating his worth. If Rick Nash can be traded for a few roster players and a pick, I wouldn't put his value at much higher than that.

And anyone suggesting RNH+ for Pietrangelo has no idea how good the Nuge is going to be. When this kid is scoring 90 points a year these threads will be necroposted and laughed at.
Rick Nash has very little value compared to Pietro. First he's not a franchise player, second he's a WINGER.

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09-20-2012, 09:15 AM
  #79
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Why would St. Louis trade a franchise defenceman who has strong Norris potential for the rest of his career for another winter (who hasn't even played in the league yet) and a prospect they don't really need?

St.Louis needs a stud C, so it would take RNH+ to get them to even begin to listen

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09-20-2012, 09:17 AM
  #80
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Why the heck would St. Louis trade a top 5-10 defenseman in the league, potential Norris candidate for many years for 2 unknowns. The pure value from a neutral perspective is there when considering potential but for the Blues, it doesn't make any sense.
There's no doubt that Yakupov and Klefbom have loads of upside but St. Louis is in win now mode plus they have a stacked prospect pool anyway. Also, their biggest need i'm guessing is a true #1 center, they are stacked on the wing.
I would actually go as far as to say that Pietrangelo is more important to the Blues than any other player is to their respective team.

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Old
09-20-2012, 09:21 AM
  #81
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Originally Posted by TOGuy14 View Post
Why would St. Louis trade a franchise defenceman who has strong Norris potential for the rest of his career for another winter (who hasn't even played in the league yet) and a prospect they don't really need?

St.Louis needs a stud C, so it would take RNH+ to get them to even begin to listen
Isn't Schwartz expected to be that guy? Or does he project more as a 2nd line center?

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09-20-2012, 09:24 AM
  #82
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Originally Posted by blinkman360 View Post
Isn't Schwartz expected to be that guy? Or does he project more as a 2nd line center?
Left wing, mcdonalds replacement.

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Old
09-20-2012, 09:25 AM
  #83
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Originally Posted by blinkman360 View Post
Isn't Schwartz expected to be that guy? Or does he project more as a 2nd line center?
He's a left winger.

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09-20-2012, 09:42 AM
  #84
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I'd do it as an Oilers fan. I'm a huge Pietrangelo fan, if I could add one d-man to the Edmonton roster it'd be him. He's already a top 5 d-man in the league (imo) and has absolutely everything you could ever ask for in a d-man, plus he's only 22.

But I don't think i would trade RNH for him, even straight up.

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09-20-2012, 10:16 AM
  #85
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I think Edmonton is giving up more raw value, but typically you have to do that when trading unknowns for a proven player, as well as when you are trading multiple guys for a single player.

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09-20-2012, 10:25 AM
  #86
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How has contract talks gone with Pietrangelo? I would have thought he would have signed a deal before the old CBA expired.

Also if Piety ever became available I would offer a good amount from the Flyers. Of course not Giroux, but Couturier+1st+2 2nd's+Manning/Bourdon/Gus. And any other draft picks and prospects you guys wanted


Last edited by Prongo: 09-20-2012 at 10:30 AM.
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09-20-2012, 10:30 AM
  #87
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So STL has 1 great year and now Pietrangelo is Jesus on ice? Obviously having great D and a ton of 2 way forwards in a defensive system helped. But also having the best Goalie tandem in the league last year...

You can't say it was all him. I agreed that he is by far undervalued as it stands in the league. But he is seriously being over valued here. Franchise center> Franchise D. Both Keith and Seabrook would be traded before Toews would. So even suggesting RNH+ for him is ridiculous.

Look at the return EDM received for Pronger in his prime. Yes he asked for a trade, which lowered the value. But that would be a great starting point.

Klefbom, Yakupov and a pick being offered would drop most GMs jaws. Just because STL doesn't need wingers, doesn't mean the value isn't there.

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09-20-2012, 10:36 AM
  #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Iceonfire View Post
So STL has 1 great year and now Pietrangelo is Jesus on ice? Obviously having great D and a ton of 2 way forwards in a defensive system helped. But also having the best Goalie tandem in the league last year...

You can't say it was all him. I agreed that he is by far undervalued as it stands in the league. But he is seriously being over valued here. Franchise center> Franchise D. Both Keith and Seabrook would be traded before Toews would. So even suggesting RNH+ for him is ridiculous.

Look at the return EDM received for Pronger in his prime. Yes he asked for a trade, which lowered the value. But that would be a great starting point.

Klefbom, Yakupov and a pick being offered would drop most GMs jaws. Just because STL doesn't need wingers, doesn't mean the value isn't there.
Piety has been excellent for the last two years, not just last year. Just because the team didn't perform the way they did last year doesn't mean Piety wasn't dominate. The kid has all the makings of a #1 dman and is quickly becoming that. He has all the tools, physical, offensive game, defensive game is amazing, hockey sense and IQ are through the roof. He has all the makings to become the next great dman in this league, and is already starting.

If you want to compare values, especially for players who didn't request a trade, start somewhere with the asking price of Weber. Flyers offered Mez+Read+1st+2 2nd's+a 4th(not sure about the last part anymore). That is more like the value of Piety. He isn't Weber, but would demand a similar package. Of course Nashville wanted Schenn+Couts from the Flyers and ++.

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Old
09-20-2012, 10:49 AM
  #89
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Originally Posted by Iceonfire View Post
So STL has 1 great year and now Pietrangelo is Jesus on ice? Obviously having great D and a ton of 2 way forwards in a defensive system helped. But also having the best Goalie tandem in the league last year...

You can't say it was all him. I agreed that he is by far undervalued as it stands in the league. But he is seriously being over valued here. Franchise center> Franchise D. Both Keith and Seabrook would be traded before Toews would. So even suggesting RNH+ for him is ridiculous.

Look at the return EDM received for Pronger in his prime. Yes he asked for a trade, which lowered the value. But that would be a great starting point.

Klefbom, Yakupov and a pick being offered would drop most GMs jaws. Just because STL doesn't need wingers, doesn't mean the value isn't there.
He played like a true number 1 dman in two seasons, and yet yakupov hasn't even touched nhl ice.

Were supposed to love this proposal based solely on potential of a number 1 pick and a promising dman prospect?

Edit: not saying yakupov won't be a great player

No thanks.

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09-20-2012, 11:13 AM
  #90
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Originally Posted by Iceonfire View Post
So STL has 1 great year and now Pietrangelo is Jesus on ice? Obviously having great D and a ton of 2 way forwards in a defensive system helped. But also having the best Goalie tandem in the league last year...

You can't say it was all him. I agreed that he is by far undervalued as it stands in the league. But he is seriously being over valued here. Franchise center> Franchise D. Both Keith and Seabrook would be traded before Toews would. So even suggesting RNH+ for him is ridiculous.

Look at the return EDM received for Pronger in his prime. Yes he asked for a trade, which lowered the value. But that would be a great starting point.

Klefbom, Yakupov and a pick being offered would drop most GMs jaws. Just because STL doesn't need wingers, doesn't mean the value isn't there.
You need to understand what VALUE really involves. It isn't what you get back in the trade, but DOES IT FILL A NEED and HOW DOES IT REPLACE WHAT WAS TRADED AWAY.

Understand that it is about replacing a player - and not only a player but the best player on your roster for parts that in truth - you don't need to win. Not about true value. And the Blues are taking all the risk here.

Lets face it. EDM fans are all willing to trade Yak, because they have extra top line wingers. (Trading from a stregnth to fill a weakness - which makes sense). But NO teams has top pairing dmen available - just sitting around. The closest thing we have seen is the trade for Erik Johnson. And the Blues made that trade - because they had another legit #1 dman. The Blues don't have another Pie or EJ waiting in the wings. We don't have another dman to step into the top pairing.

There is a reason the most EDM trades on this board involve the other team giving up a young dman. There is a reason that in the vast majority the other team rebuffs that trade.

It is the same reason the EDM fans vew RMH as almost untouchable. You will see trades involving Eberle, Hall, and Yak. It isn't just due to the center position, but the fact you have nothing in the system to replace him. That is how we Blues fans view pie.

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09-20-2012, 11:24 AM
  #91
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If you take Pietrangelo off of the Blues and we would be a fringe playoff team or not even make the playoffs. Without Pietrangelo we wouldn't have a good powerplay and we wouldn't have a defender capable to shutting down opponent's top lines on a consistent basis.

It was not a coincidence that once Petro went down against LA, we became a complete mess.

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Old
09-20-2012, 11:43 AM
  #92
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On one hand it is great to hear from other fans of other franchises to speak of the value of our #1 defense man. That gives me more personal validation when I say that Petro is top 3 D-man in the NHL easily. With only Weber & Chara being better, but not by much.

You ask and head coach in the NHL if they would want a #1 d-man over #1 centerman. And the answer will be an 80-90% "hell yes!!". Because the #1 D-man is in all 3 phases of the game, and is on the ice for much more time than that #1 center. Hence the #1 d-man affects the game more than the #1 center does. This last season the most TOI/g for a center was 22:01, while you had 63 d-men log over that amount of time had more influence on the game. While TOI/g does not say how much of a difference that player made during that game. But it does tell me that a true #1 d-man has more importance to the game out come than a #1 center can do, cuz he is out there longer and make more plays than the center can. I know this will be a homer statement, but if you look at the Blues last season. We compiled a 109 point season as a team, without a true #1 center. While teams without a #1 true d-man, and with a #1 center, did not do as good as a team. There are other indicator that prove that a #1 d-man is more important than a #1 center, but this was enuff to get the point across.

But as to this trade proposal, it is junk. Yak/Kelfbom will have good to great futures ahead of them. The St. Louis Blues playoff window has arrived, trading Petro would close it immediately. It just make no sense, and it does not improve out team in the here and now. We are not in rebuilding phase, we are through that. You can discuss how much value Petro has, but at the end of the day. There is no way Armstrong can trade him, because he will never get enuff coming back to justify trading Petro. Another way of looking at it, look at Detroit. What would have they been over the last decade without Lidstrom. The situation is very similar.


Last edited by Holden Caulfield: 09-23-2012 at 11:13 PM. Reason: fanbase flaming
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09-20-2012, 11:44 AM
  #93
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I think Oiler fans are going to be continually disappointed if they insist on trying to get another team's absolute BEST defenceman in exchange for Yakupov and another prospect. It just is not realistic. Yes, Yakupov and Klefbom have potential (Yakupov has tons of it), but it is not enough to get a #1 defenceman from a team, especially a team that has no real replacement for that defenceman.

Sorry, Oiler fans, but these proposals are not going to ever end in a way that will make you happy. I do not mean that in a nasty way, just a realistic one.

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09-20-2012, 12:30 PM
  #94
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Pietrangelo is our team. Without him, we have no defense. We already have very little depth on D, and while Klefbom is a great prospect, he's just that, a prospect. Pietro has already proven to be one of the best dmen in the league, and he still has plenty of room to grow. Yakupov is going to be great, but I am of the same belief about Tarasenko. Yakupov will probably be better, but I don't think that's a guarantee at this point. There are very few proven players in the NHL that I would trade Pietrangelo for, and not a single prospect.

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09-20-2012, 01:16 PM
  #95
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Originally Posted by MattyMo35 View Post
Pietrangelo is our team. Without him, we have no defense. We already have very little depth on D, and while Klefbom is a great prospect, he's just that, a prospect. Pietro has already proven to be one of the best dmen in the league, and he still has plenty of room to grow. Yakupov is going to be great, but I am of the same belief about Tarasenko. Yakupov will probably be better, but I don't think that's a guarantee at this point. There are very few proven players in the NHL that I would trade Pietrangelo for, and not a single prospect.
Completely understood. It is the same way the Oilers feel about RNH, the way Habs fans feel about Subban, Flyers fans feel about Giroux, etc... It is almost impossible to get one of a team's top 3 players in exchange for a couple of picks. Some people need to learn that.

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09-20-2012, 05:26 PM
  #96
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Originally Posted by Iceonfire View Post
So STL has 1 great year and now Pietrangelo is Jesus on ice? Obviously having great D and a ton of 2 way forwards in a defensive system helped. But also having the best Goalie tandem in the league last year...

You can't say it was all him. I agreed that he is by far undervalued as it stands in the league. But he is seriously being over valued here. Franchise center> Franchise D. Both Keith and Seabrook would be traded before Toews would. So even suggesting RNH+ for him is ridiculous.

Look at the return EDM received for Pronger in his prime. Yes he asked for a trade, which lowered the value. But that would be a great starting point.

Klefbom, Yakupov and a pick being offered would drop most GMs jaws. Just because STL doesn't need wingers, doesn't mean the value isn't there.
Where are most people saying the value isn't there? Comparing pronger's situation to this is irrelevant. Asking for a trade severely impacts the return. The only way the Blues trade Pietrangelo is for massive overpayment. Otherwise there is no incentive whatsoever to move him. Also, franchise d>>franchise c


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Old
09-20-2012, 07:30 PM
  #97
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From a Blues perspective, I can't really think of ANY trade that would entice the team to trade Pietrangelo. At least nothing remotely possible.

Not only is he what he is on the ice, but the dude is still on his ELC. His value may be about the highest of any player in the league if you take those factors into account.

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09-20-2012, 07:35 PM
  #98
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The value is definitely fair. But Pietrangelo is the most important player to their respective team league wide IMO.

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09-20-2012, 10:44 PM
  #99
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Originally Posted by Iceonfire View Post
I am a big Pietrangelo fan. He was insane in the world juniors and clearly doesn't get enough attention. But Blues fans are grossly exaggerating his worth. If Rick Nash can be traded for a few roster players and a pick, I wouldn't put his value at much higher than that.

And anyone suggesting RNH+ for Pietrangelo has no idea how good the Nuge is going to be. When this kid is scoring 90 points a year these threads will be necroposted and laughed at.
Nash is a 30-30 player who has an anchor of a contract. He's nowhere close to being one of the best forwards. He cracks the top 40 wingers in the league, but probably not even the top 20, let alone where he ranks among all forwards with centers included.
Pietrangelo only scored 8 fewer points than Nash did while performing as a top defensive player as well and is, unarguably, among the single digit best defensemen in the game.

Even if you strongly believe that Pietrangelo's trade value is being overblown, the comparison to Nash is straight up crazytown, and that doesn't even take into consideration Columbus and Nash's situations.

The whole "if Gretzky was traded, anybody can be traded!" rationale that is applied to justify any belief around here is just plain useless and dumb. If Pat LaFontaine can retire early, then so can Malkin! Except Patty had concussions, it's not comparable - LALALALA I CAN'T HEAR YOU BECAUSE YOU DON'T AGREE WITH ME.

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09-20-2012, 11:04 PM
  #100
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Iceonfire View Post
So STL has 1 great year and now Pietrangelo is Jesus on ice? Obviously having great D and a ton of 2 way forwards in a defensive system helped. But also having the best Goalie tandem in the league last year...

You can't say it was all him. I agreed that he is by far undervalued as it stands in the league. But he is seriously being over valued here. Franchise center> Franchise D. Both Keith and Seabrook would be traded before Toews would. So even suggesting RNH+ for him is ridiculous.

Look at the return EDM received for Pronger in his prime. Yes he asked for a trade, which lowered the value. But that would be a great starting point.

Klefbom, Yakupov and a pick being offered would drop most GMs jaws. Just because STL doesn't need wingers, doesn't mean the value isn't there.
I very strongly disagree with this statement. There is no bigger impact on the ice than a Franchise, Norris Caliber defenseman, which he has shown he is. He's been a rock defensively and began to pour on the offense with incredible consistency in the second half of last year. St. Louis will probably not even think about trading Pietrangelo unless two of the big four are on the table.

You have to really see it consistently know his effect on the team. He the anchor on the defense and has incredible vision and quickness on his first pass. He is the reason why the Goalies' numbers were so good last year, not because of Halak or Elliott's performances. The two were consistently facing below 25 shots from low scoring areas because the puck was just not in the Blues' zone that much. When he went down in the LA series, you could just see the team fall apart. Without Pietrangelo the Blues are a borderline playoff team; it's incredibly hard to understate his importance to the team. If you want him, you're going to have to offer the moon and the sun, and I'm pretty sure you don't want to do that.

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