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Old
09-22-2012, 08:32 AM
  #176
Prussian_Blue
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Originally Posted by Iceonfire View Post
If Calgary could magically pull off a trade and get a 1st line center for J-Bo they would do it in a heartbeat.
So you think Bouwmeester is a "franchise defenseman," on a par with Chara or Weber or Karlsson or Pietrangelo?


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09-22-2012, 08:36 AM
  #177
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3. Okay so franchise D are super rare. Yet Vancouver was the leagues top team 2 years in a row. And they clearly do not have one.
Alexander Edler might disagree with that statement...

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09-22-2012, 10:25 AM
  #178
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Originally Posted by Prussian_Blue View Post
Alexander Edler might disagree with that statement...
Read the other posts. A lot of your other Blues fans seem to very much think he isn't.

And when did I say J-Bo was a franchise D? My point was that he is a rock on Calgary's blue line, but for a 1st line center they would not hesitate to trade him.

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09-22-2012, 10:41 AM
  #179
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Originally Posted by rockinghockey View Post
Pietro is a very good dman, but giving up that much up is quite crazy in my mind. STL also can't afford to lose a dman any way and Shatty has no value to EDM as we have dmen that can move the puck already. Give Yak a year or so to prove himself then his value will be high and maybe a team like PHX to get OEL will make sense.
Unless Yak turns into an automatic 80-90 point player, he won't fetch you OEL

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09-22-2012, 11:33 AM
  #180
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Originally Posted by Iceonfire View Post
The Blues were swept, he was injured in game 2. They were outscored 15-6 by a team that was 1-37 on the PP. Doesn't take a psychic to figure out how that would have ended.

RNH tied Landeskog for scoring with twenty less games. 35 of RNHs points were before the all star game. That is 35 points in 38 games as opposed to Landeskog's 26 in 51 games. He had 15 points in 18 games within the NW division. Nothing against Landeskog at all, but if Hopkins at scored 70+ points as a rookie, the Calder would have been his.

"My opinion on Nugent-Hopkins has changed last summer I thought he reminded me of Joe Sakic, but its Pavel Datsyuk now. He strips people of the puck, hes crafty in high-traffic areas, he dishes well, hes got great patience with the puck."- Ken Hitchcock

That is your coach, not mine.
Didn't you say something about letting this die a few pages back? Hmmm.

I think what I've noticed in reading this thread, is alot of Oiler fans agree with your opinions, and fans of pretty much every other team around here, don't.

The reason for this, is that while Nugent-Hopkins has the potential to be one of the best centers in the league, and is certainly one of the most talented, Pietrangelo happens to be a top 5 defender ALREADY by most of our standards. RNH...might get to that point.

Plus, I'm sorry, but if you can't see what Pietr brings to the ice that RNH doesn't, then you simply haven't watched enough St. Louis Blues games. The Blues fan who said he compares him to Andreas Pirlo is a great comparison. For less enthusiastic fans? Think Iniesta. Or Paul Scholes. But 6'3, 205.

God I would love to have him on the Canucks...Kesler + Edler for Pietrangelo?

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09-22-2012, 03:41 PM
  #181
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I imagine I will be adding significant value to this thread by stating the obvious: this makes no sense for the Blues.

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09-22-2012, 04:20 PM
  #182
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St. Louis would be stupid to trade Pietrangelo for an unproven commodity like Yakupov.

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09-22-2012, 04:24 PM
  #183
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Originally Posted by YouCantYandleThis View Post
Didn't you say something about letting this die a few pages back? Hmmm.

I think what I've noticed in reading this thread, is alot of Oiler fans agree with your opinions, and fans of pretty much every other team around here, don't.

The reason for this, is that while Nugent-Hopkins has the potential to be one of the best centers in the league, and is certainly one of the most talented, Pietrangelo happens to be a top 5 defender ALREADY by most of our standards. RNH...might get to that point.

Plus, I'm sorry, but if you can't see what Pietr brings to the ice that RNH doesn't, then you simply haven't watched enough St. Louis Blues games. The Blues fan who said he compares him to Andreas Pirlo is a great comparison. For less enthusiastic fans? Think Iniesta. Or Paul Scholes. But 6'3, 205.

God I would love to have him on the Canucks...Kesler + Edler for Pietrangelo?
I don't think any one person has read every comment.

This thread was just a proposal, not mine.

I disagreed with the RNH+Klefbom+1st for Pietrangelo comment.

I have stated time and time again that I am a huge fan. And that soon he will be one of the best D in the league. Never at any point was this a RNH is better than Pietr thread. It has been derailed by Blues fans like twenty times. Obviously with 2 seasons under his belt, Pietrangelo is better than Nuge. My point was to bring this back in 2 years and look at that RNH+Klefbom proposal. It would be laughable. Norris contender or not. Why do you think the Flyers kept Schenn/Couturier instead of making the trade for Weber. Who is easily the best D in the league. No team would trade a franchise center away like that...

And I would honestly trade away Hall or Eberle before I would ever consider RNH.

Value wise Pietrangelo is in the top 5 of D, absolutely. But saying he is better than Doughty? He may have had an off year, but which of the 2 walked away with the cup?

I love how serious some people are being about this. Relax, its a hockey forum and these are our personal opinions. If Pietrangelo played for the Oilers, everyone would call him overrated etc..

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Old
09-22-2012, 04:49 PM
  #184
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Originally Posted by Iceonfire View Post
I don't think any one person has read every comment.

This thread was just a proposal, not mine.

I disagreed with the RNH+Klefbom+1st for Pietrangelo comment.

I have stated time and time again that I am a huge fan. And that soon he will be one of the best D in the league. Never at any point was this a RNH is better than Pietr thread. It has been derailed by Blues fans like twenty times. Obviously with 2 seasons under his belt, Pietrangelo is better than Nuge. My point was to bring this back in 2 years and look at that RNH+Klefbom proposal. It would be laughable. Norris contender or not. Why do you think the Flyers kept Schenn/Couturier instead of making the trade for Weber. Who is easily the best D in the league. No team would trade a franchise center away like that...

And I would honestly trade away Hall or Eberle before I would ever consider RNH.

Value wise Pietrangelo is in the top 5 of D, absolutely. But saying he is better than Doughty? He may have had an off year, but which of the 2 walked away with the cup?

I love how serious some people are being about this. Relax, its a hockey forum and these are our personal opinions. If Pietrangelo played for the Oilers, everyone would call him overrated etc..
They didn't. They refused to trade both of them together. If they refused to trade one of those players separately for Weber, then Holmgren should be fired.

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Old
09-22-2012, 05:10 PM
  #185
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Originally Posted by Iceonfire View Post
I don't think any one person has read every comment.

This thread was just a proposal, not mine.

I disagreed with the RNH+Klefbom+1st for Pietrangelo comment.

I have stated time and time again that I am a huge fan. And that soon he will be one of the best D in the league. Never at any point was this a RNH is better than Pietr thread. It has been derailed by Blues fans like twenty times. Obviously with 2 seasons under his belt, Pietrangelo is better than Nuge. My point was to bring this back in 2 years and look at that RNH+Klefbom proposal. It would be laughable. Norris contender or not. Why do you think the Flyers kept Schenn/Couturier instead of making the trade for Weber. Who is easily the best D in the league. No team would trade a franchise center away like that...

And I would honestly trade away Hall or Eberle before I would ever consider RNH.

Value wise Pietrangelo is in the top 5 of D, absolutely. But saying he is better than Doughty? He may have had an off year, but which of the 2 walked away with the cup?

I love how serious some people are being about this. Relax, its a hockey forum and these are our personal opinions. If Pietrangelo played for the Oilers, everyone would call him overrated etc..
I don't know what it is about your posts, but I find them extremely annoying. It's like you make a statement, and then someone brings it up and you completely change your statement while still saying the same thing. It's really weird.

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Old
09-22-2012, 05:19 PM
  #186
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Originally Posted by stlblues9 View Post
I don't know what it is about your posts, but I find them extremely annoying. It's like you make a statement, and then someone brings it up and you completely change your statement while still saying the same thing. It's really weird.
I could just quote older statements to get the same point across. But if it wasn't taken at face value the first time, it wouldn't really help.

And it honestly seems like I am public enemy #1 of the entire STL fan base. I have never seen people take so much offense to one thread before, its hilarious.

And all because of misinterpretations.

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09-22-2012, 05:53 PM
  #187
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Originally Posted by Iceonfire View Post
I could just quote older statements to get the same point across. But if it wasn't taken at face value the first time, it wouldn't really help.

And it honestly seems like I am public enemy #1 of the entire STL fan base. I have never seen people take so much offense to one thread before, its hilarious.

And all because of misinterpretations.
Misinterpretations made by you on Pietrangelo, RNH and hockey in general.

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Old
09-22-2012, 06:57 PM
  #188
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Originally Posted by AP27Blues View Post
Misinterpretations made by you on Pietrangelo, RNH and hockey in general.
Have I been making personal attacks on anyone here? Or insulting the fan base? Nope.

My opinion is just that.

I seriously appreciate Leaf-Oil threads now.

People tend to bash Leaf fans but honestly they are the first to post facts defending why they think a certain way. There hasn't been one legitimate argument explaining their defense of Pietrangelo.

Picking apart my statements and trying to turn them on me doesn't help the issue.

The biggest defense of Pietrangelo has been the Norris voting.

He received 68 third place votes, 7 second place votes, and zero 1st place votes by the hockey writers association.

So 7 writers honestly think that he is better than either 1 of Karlsson, Weber, Chara?

So to be clear, out of 180 writers...not 1 thought he deserved the Norris over whoever else they voted for.

Dan Girardi on the other hand was given 2 1st place votes.

Campbell, who had 53 points and led Florida to its 1st playoff appearance since 99-00 and who also won the Lady Byng only had 58 points compared to Pietrangelo's 381. So 6 PMs in 82 games with 53 points and a very close playoff series vs the conference winning team only gets him 2 votes for second??

You see why the Norris voting is skewed?? And people call me biased. The president of that association has predicted that the Oilers will make the playoffs this year... Hahaha. Anyone with actual hockey knowledge knows that a playoff appearance is soooo unrealistic.

Armstrong was also voted the best GM, and Hitchcock the best coach.
Mike Friggin Babcock had 1 vote for 3rd place....

Backes had 3x as many votes for 1st place than Datsyuk had.

So that is honestly the best example of why Pietrangelo is a generational, all star D??

Like I said, I love the guy. But put some facts together next time..

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Old
09-22-2012, 08:46 PM
  #189
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Originally Posted by Iceonfire View Post
I seriously appreciate Leaf-Oil threads now.

People tend to bash Leaf fans but honestly they are the first to post facts defending why they think a certain way. There hasn't been one legitimate argument explaining their defense of Pietrangelo.


He received 68 third place votes, 7 second place votes, and zero 1st place votes by the hockey writers association.
So 7 writers honestly think that he is better than either 1 of Karlsson, Weber, Chara?



So that is honestly the best example of why Pietrangelo is a generational, all star D??
Like I said, I love the guy. But put some facts together next time..
Aww.. thanks bro. Rare to see the Leafs fanbase get complimented.

Technically, it is 7 writers that think he is better than 2 of those, and 68 that think he is better than one of those.

You can't really put Pietrangelo's style of play based on stats though, he plays a high IQ game and there is no stat for that.

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09-22-2012, 09:20 PM
  #190
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If we were going to trade Yakupov for a d-man, I am sure they would rather wait until he has palyed a couple years in the NHL and proven he is as good as past #1 overalls.

His value will be much higher and it might make more sense for the Oilers.

I would love AP, but the Blues management would probably need to be drunk to ever trade him for a player another team was actually willing to give up.

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09-22-2012, 09:27 PM
  #191
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Originally Posted by Iceonfire View Post
Have I been making personal attacks on anyone here? Or insulting the fan base? Nope.

My opinion is just that.

I seriously appreciate Leaf-Oil threads now.

People tend to bash Leaf fans but honestly they are the first to post facts defending why they think a certain way. There hasn't been one legitimate argument explaining their defense of Pietrangelo.

Picking apart my statements and trying to turn them on me doesn't help the issue.

The biggest defense of Pietrangelo has been the Norris voting.

He received 68 third place votes, 7 second place votes, and zero 1st place votes by the hockey writers association.

So 7 writers honestly think that he is better than either 1 of Karlsson, Weber, Chara?

So to be clear, out of 180 writers...not 1 thought he deserved the Norris over whoever else they voted for.

Dan Girardi on the other hand was given 2 1st place votes.

Campbell, who had 53 points and led Florida to its 1st playoff appearance since 99-00 and who also won the Lady Byng only had 58 points compared to Pietrangelo's 381. So 6 PMs in 82 games with 53 points and a very close playoff series vs the conference winning team only gets him 2 votes for second??

You see why the Norris voting is skewed?? And people call me biased. The president of that association has predicted that the Oilers will make the playoffs this year... Hahaha. Anyone with actual hockey knowledge knows that a playoff appearance is soooo unrealistic.

Armstrong was also voted the best GM, and Hitchcock the best coach.
Mike Friggin Babcock had 1 vote for 3rd place....

Backes had 3x as many votes for 1st place than Datsyuk had.

So that is honestly the best example of why Pietrangelo is a generational, all star D??

Like I said, I love the guy. But put some facts together next time..
You got one thing right: The awards voting is biased and dumb.

Now this is still not an argument..
Now the facts, he's 22, scored more than 50 points, was rock solid and by far the best player on one of the top 5 best team in the league, it's only his second year.

He also had 90 hits, wich means he's a good physical presence, he had 47 TKA and only 37 GVA... Wich is pretty rare with an offensive dman, for the record Karlsson had 84 giveaway and 67 TKA, Chara had 68 GVA and 28 TKA. He also had more than 100 blocked shot and more than 200 shots! Now I won't even go in the advanced stats. He's also an incredible leader. He won best dman in WJC and WC.. He made the second all-star team this year, this means he's in the top 4 dman for this year.(According to the voters..)
If you're playing and you're trailing by 1 is there another dman you want on the ice ?
If you have a 1 goal lead?
If you're playing a playoff against another top ranked team?
If you're building a franchise ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leaffan16 View Post
Aww.. thanks bro. Rare to see the Leafs fanbase get complimented.

Technically, it is 7 writers that think he is better than 2 of those, and 68 that think he is better than one of those.

You can't really put Pietrangelo's style of play based on stats though, he plays a high IQ game and there is no stat for that.
Leaf's fan's are actually not that bad. You guy's are much like us habs fans, you love your team and you know your crap.

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09-22-2012, 09:39 PM
  #192
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Originally Posted by Leaffan16 View Post
Aww.. thanks bro. Rare to see the Leafs fanbase get complimented.

Technically, it is 7 writers that think he is better than 2 of those, and 68 that think he is better than one of those.

You can't really put Pietrangelo's style of play based on stats though, he plays a high IQ game and there is no stat for that.
http://ca.sports.yahoo.com/blogs/nhl...4507--nhl.html

Ah lol, yah. Thanks for pointing that out. I read it wrong. But it adds to my point.

And yes, you can't base a Ds worth based on something like Norris voting. All I wanted was tangible proof. Pietrangelo excels in a ton of different areas that are difficult to track at times. And just like with Eberle, you can't really measure clutch lol.

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09-22-2012, 09:41 PM
  #193
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Originally Posted by Mrb1p View Post
You got one thing right: The awards voting is biased and dumb.

Now this is still not an argument..
Now the facts, he's 22, scored more than 50 points, was rock solid and by far the best player on one of the top 5 best team in the league, it's only his second year.

He also had 90 hits, wich means he's a good physical presence, he had 47 TKA and only 37 GVA... Wich is pretty rare with an offensive dman, for the record Karlsson had 84 giveaway and 67 TKA, Chara had 68 GVA and 28 TKA. He also had more than 100 blocked shot and more than 200 shots! Now I won't even go in the advanced stats. He's also an incredible leader. He won best dman in WJC and WC.. He made the second all-star team this year, this means he's in the top 4 dman for this year.(According to the voters..)
If you're playing and you're trailing by 1 is there another dman you want on the ice ?
If you have a 1 goal lead?
If you're playing a playoff against another top ranked team?
If you're building a franchise ?


Leaf's fan's are actually not that bad. You guy's are much like us habs fans, you love your team and you know your crap.

This^^ . Its easy to say one player is better than another. But when you take the time to prove why, the point is so much sweeter. Thank you

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09-22-2012, 10:07 PM
  #194
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If we were going to trade Yakupov for a d-man, I am sure they would rather wait until he has palyed a couple years in the NHL and proven he is as good as past #1 overalls.

His value will be much higher and it might make more sense for the Oilers.

I would love AP, but the Blues management would probably need to be drunk to ever trade him for a player another team was actually willing to give up.
Even if Yak proves to be at the same level as other wingers drafted 1st overall you are still not going to get a top 5 dman for him.

RNH is a different story, if he becomes a elite top 5 center then the value would certainly be there to get a top 5 dman. However even with the value there it would still most likely not happen as top 5 at those 2 positions dont get traded under normal conditions.

So basically anything the Oilers and Blues would ever even consider would be RNH for AP and once again neither team does it.

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09-22-2012, 10:27 PM
  #195
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Originally Posted by Mrb1p View Post
Leaf's fan's are actually not that bad. You guy's are much like us habs fans, you love your team and you know your crap.
Habs and Oiler fans complimenting Leafs Fan? Man, if we see a Nucks/Sens fan, that'll be a record. Jokes aside, Most of us (Canadiens, Leafs, Wings, etc) know our s*** because we get alot of other fans calling bs on us, so we learn from past times. And because the Original 6 mostly know basically all of their history.

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09-22-2012, 10:48 PM
  #196
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Originally Posted by jarmoismyhero View Post
Even if Yak proves to be at the same level as other wingers drafted 1st overall you are still not going to get a top 5 dman for him.

RNH is a different story, if he becomes a elite top 5 center then the value would certainly be there to get a top 5 dman. However even with the value there it would still most likely not happen as top 5 at those 2 positions dont get traded under normal conditions.

So basically anything the Oilers and Blues would ever even consider would be RNH for AP and once again neither team does it.
Well, I agree for the most, the Blues won't trade AP and the Oilers will never trade RNH.

I also agree you won't get a top 5 dman. That being said, I don't think the Oilers need or can afford a top 5 dman in the league anyways, so it's probably a moot point.

This team has been assembled to put up a ton of offense, so they just need more solid defenders with a couple solid top end guys, hopefully similar to the style of defense the Canucks have put together.

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09-23-2012, 02:22 PM
  #197
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value of Shattenkirk?

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09-23-2012, 02:52 PM
  #198
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St. Louis wants to acquire defence...Not trade it away.

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09-23-2012, 03:11 PM
  #199
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There is no way STL trades Pietrangelo for any return that isn't going to destroy the other franchise.

Yakupov could turn into a great player, but even if he turns into Kovalchuk would you trade Pietrangelo for Kovalchuk? I sure wouldn't.

Number one d-men of his caliber only come around once in a while and when you get one you keep him for his career.

The blues need a blue chip forward but they won't move Pietrangelo to get one.

BTW I am an oiler fan and even I can see why this idea is sillyness.

The oilers need to draft the d-men they need to fill in with or Sign one as a UFA(good luck with lightning stiking twice though!)
.

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09-23-2012, 03:18 PM
  #200
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We don't have the depth on defense to trade Shattenkirk, so it doesn't really matter.

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