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What happened to Lecavalier?

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Old
09-19-2012, 06:31 PM
  #26
SmellOfVictory
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gavy View Post
Lmfao, ya right
Yeah, I gotta say: more talented than the guy who scored 60 goals? I do believe I disagree with that statement.

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09-19-2012, 07:00 PM
  #27
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He was never as good as he was made out to be. He was the complete package on paper, he just never really managed to put it all together other than his awesome peak. He'll go down as a woulda coulda shoulda type of guy.

Injuries certainly played their part in his demise, but he was an underachiever early in his career too. Lecavalier has/had all the tools to be a superstar/HOF calibre player, yet over his career (98-present) he has a worse PPG than Ray Whitney! Yikes. He's only finished in the top 10 twice for goals (1st and 9th) and points (3rd and 6th). Those are the only two years he's been a PPG player as well.

All in all a pretty underwhelming career for a guy who was a 1st overall pick and at times labelled a superstar and franchise player.


Last edited by Stansfield*: 09-19-2012 at 07:04 PM. Reason: grammar
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09-19-2012, 07:02 PM
  #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gavy View Post
Lmfao, ya right
Quote:
Originally Posted by SmellOfVictory View Post
Yeah, I gotta say: more talented than the guy who scored 60 goals? I do believe I disagree with that statement.
I think you guys are looking at it the wrong way. Watch him play.


Also, look at Alex Semin, one of the most talented guys in the league, but is he one of the best?

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09-19-2012, 07:05 PM
  #29
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Originally Posted by Stansfield View Post
He was never as good as he was made out to be. He was the completele package on paper, he just never really managed to put it all together other than his awesome peak. He'll go down as a woulda coulda shoulda type of guy.

Injuries certainly played their part in his demise, but he was an underachiever early in his career too. Lecavalier has/had all the tools to be a superstar/HOF calibre player, yet over his career (98-present) he has a worse PPG than Ray Whitney! Yikes. He's only finished in the top 10 twice for goals (1st and 9th) and points (3rd and 6th). Those are the only two years he's been a PPG player as well.

All in all a pretty underwhelming career for a guy who was a 1st overall pick and at times labelled a superstar and franchise player.
something along the lines of "the Michael Jordan of Hockey"

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09-19-2012, 07:09 PM
  #30
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Originally Posted by Semin View Post
something along the lines of "the Michael Jordan of Hockey"
I don't follow. He's more like the Vince Carter or TracyMcGrady of hockey.

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09-19-2012, 07:10 PM
  #31
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Originally Posted by Stansfield View Post
I don't follow. He's more like the Vince Carter or TracyMcGrady of hockey.
Sorry, shoulda been more clear. Pardon me.


Lightning owner at the time of the draft called him the Michael Jordan of hockey


Edit: Maybe my Sarcasm detector is off?

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09-19-2012, 07:15 PM
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Semin View Post
Sorry, shoulda been more clear. Pardon me.


Lightning owner at the time of the draft called him the Michael Jordan of hockey


Edit: Maybe my Sarcasm detector is off?
Ahh gotcha, I probably should've assumed it was sarcasm.

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09-19-2012, 07:18 PM
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stansfield View Post
Ahh gotcha, I probably should've assumed it was sarcasm.
I was assuming your post was sarcasm. Mine wasn't.

Lecavalier was drafted first overall by Tampa Bay in the 1998 NHL Entry Draft, during which new Lightning owner Art Williams proclaimed that Lecavalier would be "the Michael Jordan of hockey"

got it from Wiki

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09-19-2012, 07:29 PM
  #34
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Eventually young athletes find ways to play the league

Eventually the league finds ways to play against the player

Vinny and Marty had every d pairing running in circles back than. Eventually the circles weren't smooth enough.

Eventualllllllllllllllllllly

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09-19-2012, 08:03 PM
  #35
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This is exactly a case of reading into stats far too much, or not even reading them correctly.

First of all his 07-08 shooting percentage isnt much off his avg.
His individual shooting percentage isn't much off, no - just half a percent. However, his teammates' shooting percentage while he was on the ice was very high - 10.49% at 5v5. There's no easy way to track a players' career on-ice sh% (and even if there was, the data only goes back to the start of the '07-'08 season), but it doesn't really matter because a players' on-ice sh% is mostly out of his control. For comparison's sake:

SeasonLecavalier 5v5 on-ice sh%
07-0810.49%
08-098.91%
09-108.51%
10-118.68%
11-1211.30%

There's no rhyme or reason to how well a team shoots when <player x> is on the ice. Even the best playmakers in the world influence their teammates shooting percentage so little that it gets buried in statistical noise. Case in point: look at 2011-2012.

Quote:
Secondly he is exactly as good as those point totals would state. Ask any Tampa fan, Lecavalier is the most talented player on the team, just only lived up to that potential for a season and a half before being riddled with injury.
Narratives, narratives, narratives. I know that's what was said about him when he was drafted, and that's what mainstream media guys tell us, but it's just not true. It's a bunch of words that people think are true because they're told so.

Let's say, hypothetically, that Lecavalier is as good as those point totals suggest (108, then 92 points).

Players that dominant/elite (100+ point players) are always faced up against the best competition the other team can muster. Guys like Giroux, Crosby, the Sedins, etc regularly draw the top defense pairings (Chara, Lidstrom, etc) - that's just common sense.

These elite players are elite because they can outplay those guys on a regular basis. Sure they're not always facing talent like that (not every team has a Weber/Suter pairing) but they're certainly facing the best of each team they play.

When Giroux was on the ice at 5v5 this year, the Flyers outshot their opponents 659 to 577 (that's 53.3%). With Malkin on the ice, the Penguins outshot the other team 751 to 534 (58.4%). Elite players face the very good players and still come out ahead.

In '07-'08, Lecavalier registered 92 points, but the Lightning were actually outshot when he was on the ice - 668 to 696. If he was in that elite class and was actually "as good as those point totals state", he wouldn't be losing the puck possession battle.

Quote:
It is entirely injury based, shoulder injury and both wrists have been operated on in the last 4 seasons. Only said this offseason that he is finally healthy.
Injuries certainly have something to do with it; I'm not saying they don't. Time will tell if he is as healthy as he says he is, and if so, how much his performance bounces back.. But with far less powerplays happening than in '07-'08, and giving up a lot of offensive minutes to Stamkos, I wouldn't bet on Lecavalier hitting 80+ points again.

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09-19-2012, 08:31 PM
  #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DropkickQuinn View Post
Ovechkin, Crosby, Heatley and Malkin say hello

He had 200 (92 goals) combined points in from 06/07-07/08.


Malkin: 191
Crosby: 192
Heatley: 187
Ovechkin: 204


One can absolutely make the argument that was the best forward/center during those 2 years.

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09-19-2012, 09:33 PM
  #37
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Still seems to me that a lot of people are reading stats and haven't watched the guy play the game over the years. Someone above mentioned one of those big personal statistical seasons after the cup year, when the Lighting were outshot when Vinny was on the ice.

Well, no kidding. If you watched him play then, a lot of the time he was posted up outside the opposing team's blue line, looking for a long pass from the defensive zone to spring him for a juicy scoring chance. Many of those times the rest of the team was giving up scoring chances against. The Lightning were a lousy hockey club.

The Vinny of recent seasons has been working hard in the defensive end, and making plays that end up in chances for other guys. He is finally using that big body effectively - even with the injuries. He was really instrumental in Teddy Purcell becoming a solid NHL goal scorer. He was not single handedly responsible for the team coming back from the cellar, but he has certainly filled the captain's role, and was a big part of getting the team to game 7 of the ECF a couple of seasons ago.

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Old
09-20-2012, 01:33 AM
  #38
SmellOfVictory
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ScaredStreit View Post
He had 200 (92 goals) combined points in from 06/07-07/08.


Malkin: 191
Crosby: 192
Heatley: 187
Ovechkin: 204


One can absolutely make the argument that was the best forward/center during those 2 years.
Joe Thornton had 210 points, Datsyuk had 184 (plus a Selke), Iginla had 192 points (89 goals), etc. An argument can be made, but I don't think it's really any stronger than a substantial number of other elite players.

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09-20-2012, 01:47 AM
  #39
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2 good years, rest average, still top line player, just not elite

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09-20-2012, 02:10 AM
  #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gavy View Post
Lmfao, ya right
It's true... Lecavalier has more talent then Stamkos.

What he loses in pure goal scoring instincts he makes up with Physicalilty, Vision and Passing. Lecavalier in his prime was a much more rounded player then Stamkos and was at the time considered a top-3 all round offensive forward.

If Vinny worked as hard as Stamkos did in his earlier years he would've been an all time great.


Last edited by Sky04: 09-20-2012 at 02:16 AM.
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09-20-2012, 02:52 AM
  #41
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Had two great years, but he's still a very good player. Unfortunately he's suffered quite a few injuries, plus he's lost a step, I can't ever see him returning to star status. Defiantly thought he would have become a much better player, but he's still had a very good career.

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09-20-2012, 03:05 AM
  #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sky04 View Post
It's true... Lecavalier has more talent then Stamkos.

What he loses in pure goal scoring instincts he makes up with Physicalilty, Vision and Passing. Lecavalier in his prime was a much more rounded player then Stamkos and was at the time considered a top-3 all round offensive forward.

If Vinny worked as hard as Stamkos did in his earlier years he would've been an all time great.
This is very much true and something fans from other teams are usually not aware of.

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09-20-2012, 04:50 AM
  #43
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He was always overrated. Period.

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09-20-2012, 06:39 AM
  #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SmellOfVictory View Post
Yeah, I gotta say: more talented than the guy who scored 60 goals? I do believe I disagree with that statement.
You say that and yet other Tampa fans come in and say:


Quote:
Originally Posted by sky04 View Post
It's true... Lecavalier has more talent then Stamkos.

What he loses in pure goal scoring instincts he makes up with Physicalilty, Vision and Passing. Lecavalier in his prime was a much more rounded player then Stamkos and was at the time considered a top-3 all round offensive forward.

If Vinny worked as hard as Stamkos did in his earlier years he would've been an all time great.
and

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maelmoor View Post
This is very much true and something fans from other teams are usually not aware of.

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09-20-2012, 06:53 AM
  #45
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Originally Posted by Philly85 View Post
He was always overrated. Period.
...Until he became underrated...

But I agree with you. He is raised in the trapping era, and during that time nobody wanted their centers to make any plays with the puck going through the neutral zone. A complete center today like Sid Crosby for example is a dominant force with the puck heading up ice too. A center like that can't really be shut down. LeCavalier never had that in him, while he was extremely good in the attacking zone.

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09-20-2012, 07:19 AM
  #46
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Shoulder? His legs are gone has no explosiveness. He already wasnt fast now he's as slow as molasses.

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09-20-2012, 07:42 AM
  #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stansfield View Post
He was never as good as he was made out to be. He was the complete package on paper, he just never really managed to put it all together other than his awesome peak. He'll go down as a woulda coulda shoulda type of guy.

Injuries certainly played their part in his demise, but he was an underachiever early in his career too. Lecavalier has/had all the tools to be a superstar/HOF calibre player, yet over his career (98-present) he has a worse PPG than Ray Whitney! Yikes. He's only finished in the top 10 twice for goals (1st and 9th) and points (3rd and 6th). Those are the only two years he's been a PPG player as well.

All in all a pretty underwhelming career for a guy who was a 1st overall pick and at times labelled a superstar and franchise player.
Here's the thing I always thought it was the opposite, he was less of a pure talent that he was made out to be but he rather overachieved by shear force of will. Just look at the cup run, he made things happen by being this great leader, he didn't surpassed Iginla because he was better or stronger, he did it because he wanted it more. It's like the first few years he was in a constant struggle with coach Tortorella and Torto made Vinny raise his level by rage basically, Toro pushed him so much that he had no choice to produce. Then came a day where he could not push back anymore and he did not have the talent for it to continue on skills alone. He has talent but if there was ever a player who needed both skills and effort to be a talent of high level, it's been him.

I always wondered even when he had great offensive seasons why Vinny had terrible defensive numbers, terrible + and - and that's because he was too tired of the great effort it demanded from him to score goals and making plays to backcheck and do the rest.

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09-20-2012, 11:26 AM
  #48
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He and Getzlaf are probably two of the laziest players in the NHL but since they're Canadian and not Russian nobody seems to notice.

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09-20-2012, 11:31 AM
  #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eklunds source View Post
H
Let's say, hypothetically, that Lecavalier is as good as those point totals suggest (108, then 92 points).

Players that dominant/elite (100+ point players) are always faced up against the best competition the other team can muster. Guys like Giroux, Crosby, the Sedins, etc regularly draw the top defense pairings (Chara, Lidstrom, etc) - that's just common sense.

These elite players are elite because they can outplay those guys on a regular basis. Sure they're not always facing talent like that (not every team has a Weber/Suter pairing) but they're certainly facing the best of each team they play.

When Giroux was on the ice at 5v5 this year, the Flyers outshot their opponents 659 to 577 (that's 53.3%). With Malkin on the ice, the Penguins outshot the other team 751 to 534 (58.4%). Elite players face the very good players and still come out ahead.

In '07-'08, Lecavalier registered 92 points, but the Lightning were actually outshot when he was on the ice - 668 to 696. If he was in that elite class and was actually "as good as those point totals state", he wouldn't be losing the puck possession battle.
I really wouldn't be so quick to use Giroux as a counter point to how Lecavalier not elite blah blah blah, since Giroux's current peak has not been as long as Lecavalier's all too brief peak back in 2007 and 2008.

You also have to understand that Tampa Bay was going into the toilet right as Lecavalier was hitting his peak. You cite 2008 and how the Lightning were outshot, but you completely ignore the fact that they were also in the midst of their worst season since the lockout, jettisoned Brad Richards at the deadline, and drafted first overall that June, picking Steven Stamkos.

Lecavalier clearly never blossomed into the consistent threat a guy like Joe Thornton was, but he did have the abilities. Early in his career he seemed to be burdened by a dysfunctional franchise and a suspect drive, and later on, he's been dragged down by injuries. It really is a shame he couldn't be that consistent 2007 and 2008 version of himself.

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09-20-2012, 11:48 AM
  #50
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Lecavelier was our best player in the playoffs a couple of years ago. He may not be the productive guy he once was and he may not earn his salary but hes not a bad player at all. He still produces for us and still our captain. He leads well on and off the ice. He will be a special person in TB for a long time.

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