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What happened to Lecavalier?

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Old
09-20-2012, 11:36 PM
  #76
Lacaar
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Originally Posted by shello View Post
That's not exactly true. A lot has to do with his shoulder, thank you Matt Cooke. Last season was his first season since that injury, he said it felt 100% if not close, then he hurt his wrist.
Well if that's not wearing down then what is.

He just can't stay healthy enough for the last 3 years to determine what if anything is left in the tank.

Just not the player he was anymore.

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09-20-2012, 11:42 PM
  #77
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Originally Posted by Maelmoor View Post
This is very much true and something fans from other teams are usually not aware of.
I don't think many people argue his talent or his ability to dominate at his peak.

What's so enigmatic about him is it took him a long time to get to that level and poof.. it only lasted a couple of seasons.

Not saying he wasn't a good hockey player.. just stopped being a great hockey player.

Injuries can explain the shortness of his dominance. I'm of the opinion he never finds that level again. His window is shut.

Like others have said. Good 1st line player now. Just not great.

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09-21-2012, 02:22 AM
  #78
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was he taking steroids?

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09-21-2012, 11:20 AM
  #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by illpucks View Post
2 amazing seasons 2006-2007 and 2007-2008 but everything before and after these seasons have been mediocre in comparison.

He was so dominant in these 2 seasons. At that time he was considered the best centre and forward in the game. Now he is not mentioned at all. What happened?
I think he was rushed to the NHL.

mentally not mature or ready to take on the burden of carrying that franchise.

He may have been big enough to be an NHL player, be he should have spent another year in juniors.

Mentally I don't think he was prepared to learn how to lead in that situation.

There was to much asked of him to soon.

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09-21-2012, 11:34 AM
  #80
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Originally Posted by Stansfield View Post
He was never as good as he was made out to be. He was the complete package on paper, he just never really managed to put it all together other than his awesome peak. He'll go down as a woulda coulda shoulda type of guy.

Injuries certainly played their part in his demise, but he was an underachiever early in his career too. Lecavalier has/had all the tools to be a superstar/HOF calibre player, yet over his career (98-present) he has a worse PPG than Ray Whitney! Yikes. He's only finished in the top 10 twice for goals (1st and 9th) and points (3rd and 6th). Those are the only two years he's been a PPG player as well.

All in all a pretty underwhelming career for a guy who was a 1st overall pick and at times labelled a superstar and franchise player.
I agree with everything you said, and I am not talking about you specifically, but maybe people should temper their expectations for a player who hadn't even played a single NHL game yet. To label an 18 year old 1st overall pick as a ''superstar'' and ''franchise'' player puts way too much pressure on that player to achieve that status.

The problem wasn't that Lecavalier didn't live up to expectations. The real problem is that people like to label players as being a ''sure thing'' when really, no one can predict with certainty how a player will pan out. Lecavalier is 32 and will barring a comeback season, he will probably continue to decline (but still be effective) as he gets older. I don't think his career has been underwhelming at all. He has a Rocket trophy, a cup, World cup and world championship. He has had a career that most players in the history of hockey can only dream of having. Just because he hasn't put up HOF numbers doesn't mean he didn't live up to his potential. This IS his potential. Criticize the people who place these unfair labels on players like him, not on the player himself. Not every player is a ''surefire'' star like Crosby or Ovechkin. To label a player as a superstar and expect him to reach that level before he had even played in the NHL is stupid. And then people talk about him about how frustrating he was to watch and never lived up to expectations, well that is your own fault for placing expectations on a player.


Last edited by TheStroker: 09-21-2012 at 11:40 AM.
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Old
09-21-2012, 04:24 PM
  #81
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Originally Posted by pld459666 View Post
I think he was rushed to the NHL.

mentally not mature or ready to take on the burden of carrying that franchise.

He may have been big enough to be an NHL player, be he should have spent another year in juniors.

Mentally I don't think he was prepared to learn how to lead in that situation.

There was to much asked of him to soon.
No he was NHL ready, what more could he do in Jr's?

In 2 seasons of the QMHL, he scored 218 points in 122 games, 1.8ppg while adding 48 points in 22 playoff games. There was absolutely no reason to send him back, they sent an NHL level player in Richards back for another season and he destroyed the league with 186 points, 71 goals in 63 games while adding 37 points in 12 playoff games that year.

The problem was how he was brought into the NHL, they threw him on the ice and pretty much asked to play like he did in Jr's except with the big boys. Coaching was horrible, veterans were bad and management was poor. And to add, they expected an 18 year old kid to take them out of the NHL basement and to the top.

When Stamkos joined the lightning, he joined a horrible team with bad management and coaches, was pretty much placed in an identical situation but he had what Vinny didn't then and that's great veterans with amazing mentoring skills. Gary Roberts, Mark Recchi, Vinny and Marty, all helped him. No surprise Vinny was the first to reach out to Stamkos as a rookie.

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09-21-2012, 04:33 PM
  #82
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Originally Posted by nowhereman View Post
Is that why Crosby and Ovechkin won two harts, two Arts Ross trophies, two Pearsons, and a Richard during that time period?

Take off the homer glasses. Lecavalier is not on Crosby or Ovechkin's level and never was. Hell, Crosby outscored a prime Lecavalier by 28 points, playing on the worst team in the league, when he was eighteen.
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Originally Posted by RogerRoeper View Post
Are you serious? He was very good but not on the level of a Crosby or Ovechkin.
Sorry but for that near two seasons he was definitely in the conversation if not the front runner for being the best player in the league. And rightfully so. And as proven by the post above me, many many hockey analysts said the same things.

So believe what you want, but he was definitely at the same level before his injuries.

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Old
09-22-2012, 11:23 PM
  #83
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Originally Posted by IdealisticSniper View Post
Sorry but for that near two seasons he was definitely in the conversation if not the front runner for being the best player in the league. And rightfully so. And as proven by the post above me, many many hockey analysts said the same things.

So believe what you want, but he was definitely at the same level before his injuries.
He was not the frontrunner, not even close. He had one piece of hardware, during that time, and far more analysts and players considered Crosby and Ovechkin to be ahead of Lecavalier, after the 07-08 season, than vice versa.

Crosby finished almost a 1000 votes ahead of Lecavalier in 2007, when Vinny was in his absolute prime, and Ovechkin came out 1311 votes ahead of him in 2008. In fact, Crosby had as many votes as Lecavalier did in 2008 and he was injured for almost half the season.

Just because a few analysts and Pavel Kubina thought Lecavalier was the best player in the game, doesn't mean the majority of analysts and players did.

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Old
09-22-2012, 11:40 PM
  #84
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Over PPG in his last 2 PO's, that's where it counts.

He would still need to get in first ...

But if you look at the rate he's scoring you see that he's still able to score at a PPG rate, but he's much more inconsistent..

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09-22-2012, 11:42 PM
  #85
Paxton Fettel
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The truth is if Lecavalier was a Russian, he'd get Kovalev treatment from the fans. Except he's a lot more talented.

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09-22-2012, 11:47 PM
  #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Paxton Fettel View Post
The truth is if Lecavalier was a Russian, he'd get Kovalev treatment from the fans. Except he's a lot more talented.
Different kind of player. Kovalev is easier to admire because he is/was pure skills and he was very spectacular. Vinny gives an effort, he is more heart and soul type.

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09-23-2012, 12:01 AM
  #87
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Originally Posted by Le Tricolore View Post
He was sad that he wasn't traded to Montreal.
This is the most amusing answer.



But in all seriousness, it's not like he isn't still a very good player. He's just been...surpassed by others and his bloated contract makes him look like lesser value. Still an extremely good 2nd line C and a 1st line C on half the teams in the league.

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09-23-2012, 12:02 AM
  #88
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Originally Posted by nowhereman View Post
He was not the frontrunner, not even close. He had one piece of hardware, during that time, and far more analysts and players considered Crosby and Ovechkin to be ahead of Lecavalier, after the 07-08 season, than vice versa.

Crosby finished almost a 1000 votes ahead of Lecavalier in 2007, when Vinny was in his absolute prime, and Ovechkin came out 1311 votes ahead of him in 2008. In fact, Crosby had as many votes as Lecavalier did in 2008 and he was injured for almost half the season.

Just because a few analysts and Pavel Kubina thought Lecavalier was the best player in the game, doesn't mean the majority of analysts and players did.

How much hardware did Ovy have in 06-07? and you're telling me people were rating Ovechkin better then Vinny that season also? So yes at one point he was playing at a higher level then Ovechkin.

In Crosby's hart season, he was abosolutely an offensive beast, however at the time the argument for Vinny was that he was the better goal scorer, much better 2-way player AND he was a proven winner. (2004 SC and World Cup MVP)

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09-23-2012, 12:42 AM
  #89
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Originally Posted by Paxton Fettel View Post
The truth is if Lecavalier was a Russian, he'd get Kovalev treatment from the fans. Except he's a lot more talented.
You're talking about the player who had maybe the best hand's ever... I fail to see how Lecavalier is more talented...Both have incredible shot's, both have good playmaking abilities, Kovy had the best hand in the game (Tie with Dats and Jagr maybe?) and both are stronger than bulls.

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09-23-2012, 02:42 AM
  #90
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Look up the top scoring center on the Lightning every season for the past decade.

In virtually all of those seasons, those centers were playing with St. Louis (Richards, Lecavalier & Stamkos) all season.

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09-23-2012, 03:36 AM
  #91
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Originally Posted by DropkickQuinn View Post
Ovechkin, Crosby, Heatley and Malkin say hello
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Originally Posted by ScaredStreit View Post
He had 200 (92 goals) combined points in from 06/07-07/08.

Malkin: 191
Crosby: 192
Heatley: 187
Ovechkin: 204

One can absolutely make the argument that was the best forward/center during those 2 years.
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Originally Posted by SmellOfVictory View Post
Joe Thornton had 210 points, Datsyuk had 184 (plus a Selke), Iginla had 192 points (89 goals), etc. An argument can be made, but I don't think it's really any stronger than a substantial number of other elite players.
IMHO, Thornton is the winner for centers and Zetterberg for forwards over those two particular seasons. But it's also irrelevant as Lecavalier wasn't even the best forward on his team. He outscored Martin St. Louis by a combined total of 15 points, but Marty is noticeably better defensively.

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09-23-2012, 04:20 AM
  #92
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Paxton Fettel View Post
The truth is if Lecavalier was a Russian, he'd get Kovalev treatment from the fans. Except he's a lot more talented.
Lecavalier is a lot less enigmatic than Kovalev, plus his play has legitimately been affected by serious injury. He CAN'T be as good as he was.

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09-23-2012, 11:10 AM
  #93
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Originally Posted by revolverjgw View Post
Lecavalier is a lot less enigmatic than Kovalev, plus his play has legitimately been affected by serious injury. He CAN'T be as good as he was.
Alexei Kovalev: the only player drafted outside the top 10 who everyone assumes should be able to put up 90 points in his sleep. Oh wait, Alex Semin too.

No doubt... if a Russian guy is inconsistent he's lazy, if a Canadian guy is it's because he was injured.

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09-23-2012, 04:22 PM
  #94
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Originally Posted by eklunds source View Post
His individual shooting percentage isn't much off, no - just half a percent. However, his teammates' shooting percentage while he was on the ice was very high - 10.49% at 5v5. There's no easy way to track a players' career on-ice sh% (and even if there was, the data only goes back to the start of the '07-'08 season), but it doesn't really matter because a players' on-ice sh% is mostly out of his control. For comparison's sake:

SeasonLecavalier 5v5 on-ice sh%
07-0810.49%
08-098.91%
09-108.51%
10-118.68%
11-1211.30%

There's no rhyme or reason to how well a team shoots when <player x> is on the ice. Even the best playmakers in the world influence their teammates shooting percentage so little that it gets buried in statistical noise. Case in point: look at 2011-2012.


Narratives, narratives, narratives. I know that's what was said about him when he was drafted, and that's what mainstream media guys tell us, but it's just not true. It's a bunch of words that people think are true because they're told so.

Let's say, hypothetically, that Lecavalier is as good as those point totals suggest (108, then 92 points).

Players that dominant/elite (100+ point players) are always faced up against the best competition the other team can muster. Guys like Giroux, Crosby, the Sedins, etc regularly draw the top defense pairings (Chara, Lidstrom, etc) - that's just common sense.

These elite players are elite because they can outplay those guys on a regular basis. Sure they're not always facing talent like that (not every team has a Weber/Suter pairing) but they're certainly facing the best of each team they play.

When Giroux was on the ice at 5v5 this year, the Flyers outshot their opponents 659 to 577 (that's 53.3%). With Malkin on the ice, the Penguins outshot the other team 751 to 534 (58.4%). Elite players face the very good players and still come out ahead.

In '07-'08, Lecavalier registered 92 points, but the Lightning were actually outshot when he was on the ice - 668 to 696. If he was in that elite class and was actually "as good as those point totals state", he wouldn't be losing the puck possession battle.


Injuries certainly have something to do with it; I'm not saying they don't. Time will tell if he is as healthy as he says he is, and if so, how much his performance bounces back.. But with far less powerplays happening than in '07-'08, and giving up a lot of offensive minutes to Stamkos, I wouldn't bet on Lecavalier hitting 80+ points again.
Can you do the splits for 08 before and after his injury for all of these stats?

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09-23-2012, 04:25 PM
  #95
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Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
IMHO, Thornton is the winner for centers and Zetterberg for forwards over those two particular seasons. But it's also irrelevant as Lecavalier wasn't even the best forward on his team. He outscored Martin St. Louis by a combined total of 15 points, but Marty is noticeably better defensively.
No... not in 07 and 08.

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09-23-2012, 04:30 PM
  #96
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Another reason for Lecavalier's demise was the arrival of Stamkos. When Stamkos became what he was during his second year, Lecavalier was no longer looked at as the go-to-guy. Since they are both centers, it was natural for Lecavalier's offensive role within the team to diminish. Not to mention that he was battling injuries at the same time.

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12-14-2012, 08:09 AM
  #97
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Originally Posted by bassassin View Post
This is exactly a case of reading into stats far too much, or not even reading them correctly.

First of all his 07-08 shooting percentage isnt much off his avg. Secondly he is exactly as good as those point totals would state. Ask any Tampa fan, Lecavalier is the most talented player on the team, just only lived up to that potential for a season and a half before being riddled with injury.

It is entirely injury based, shoulder injury and both wrists have been operated on in the last 4 seasons. Only said this offseason that he is finally healthy.
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Originally Posted by Gavy View Post
Lmfao, ya right
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Originally Posted by SmellOfVictory View Post
Yeah, I gotta say: more talented than the guy who scored 60 goals? I do believe I disagree with that statement.
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Originally Posted by Semin View Post
I think you guys are looking at it the wrong way. Watch him play.


Also, look at Alex Semin, one of the most talented guys in the league, but is he one of the best?
Exactly. He's got the vision and passing abilities and it's also the little things he does most people don't even notice. A nifty move here, a little through-the-legs action there, a balancing the puck on the tip of the stick in full speed here and so on.

Sometimes those moves turn into a sweet pass or a even a goal like in 2010 when he scored this beauty:



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Old
12-14-2012, 08:12 AM
  #98
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Originally Posted by shello View Post
That's not exactly true. A lot has to do with his shoulder, thank you Matt Cooke. Last season was his first season since that injury, he said it felt 100% if not close, then he hurt his wrist.
This. Thanks for Matt Cooke. Matt Cooke happened for Lecavalier. Marc Savard also can say thank you.

Incurance companies should really force this guy (Cooke) out from NHL.

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12-14-2012, 08:47 AM
  #99
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Originally Posted by hadrian View Post
I guess the hipsters have found their newest sweetheart.
Yeah really. Probably collect vinyl, buy clothes from secondhand shops, write stories on typewriters, wear black-rimmed glasses... and buy Lecavalier jerseys.

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12-14-2012, 09:23 AM
  #100
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Well I traded for Lecavalier in NHL 13 and after two mediocre 20 goal, 50 point seasons, he managed to have a 40 goal, 80 point season. Roaring back?

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